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Hyperspace 
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Post Re: Hyperspace
Negative hyperspace... this is one of those brain-melting concepts like sideways time, isn't it?


Thu Aug 25, 2011 1:37 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
Trantor wrote:
Would also like to see if Nemesis is real.


The possibility of course is there, but I think not. If even medium-sized KBO's can be detected, I reckon an object the size of Jupiter with 80+ times its mass must be like the proverbial spotlight in our sun's neighbourhood.

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Thu Aug 25, 2011 9:47 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
Trantor wrote:
Would also like to see if Nemesis is real.


A red dwarf so close would have been blindingly obvious to IRAS and WISE and observable by ground scopes, if not a naked-eye object.
And in the case of a brown dwarf, we get into the "in a bound orbit" case. Such an object wouldn't sweep past withinin a orbit or two of Neptune and Uranus, it'd stick around and have a regular effect on orbits. Last I heard, such objects have been pretty conclusively ruled out.

Something like Tyche's a bit more likely...a medium-large Oort cloud gas giant. Cold, smaller than 5 Jupiters or further than 10000 AU. Not much support for the existence of such an object, though.


Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:47 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
YAY, necroposting!


Mjolnir wrote:
Something like Tyche's a bit more likely...a medium-large Oort cloud gas giant. Cold, smaller than 5 Jupiters or further than 10000 AU. Not much support for the existence of such an object, though.

Surprisingly well guessed, mr Mjolnir!

Not exactly "cold", nor an Oort-object apparently, but a rogue planet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFBDSIR2149-0403

Even more busstations out there?

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Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:37 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
CFBDSIR 2149-0403 is ~100 light years away. If there was an object that size in our Oort cloud only 1 light year away, we'd surely have seen it by now.

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Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:58 pm
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Post Re: Hyperspace
I can;t remember or site the episode but was watching some hstory channel show... during a survey of the ort cloud they have discovered an unusual clumping of commets and other objects. This is believed by some astronomers to be signs of a "significant" large body in our extreme outer system.

I don;t believe they were implying it is a nemisis sized object or even a rouge planet but it is definately something large and distant..large enough to be classified as a near planet from what I can remember of the show..I'll see if can find the info and post it...I hate soundign like i am making stuff up :D :oops:


Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:18 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
I seem to recall something about a 'tenth planet' or planetoid having been found out in the Kuiper Belt. This was, of course, a number of years ago, and what few details I picked up at the time have long since become blurred.


Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:10 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
There were several of those announcements back then, Sedna for example. I'm not certain that we'd be guaranteed to have actually seen any Earth-or-larger planets out in the Oort cloud (specifically, I'm not certain that we've observed enough area at the required detail), but am I safe in assuming that we've at least narrowed down the possible direction vectors when looking from the Earth?


Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:10 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
Kuiper belt objects have irregular orbits, but they're still more or less in the plane of the rest of the system from 30-50 AU, and this is probably more or less where they formed. Oort cloud objects are things (mostly comets) that have been gravitationally ejected from the system, and they form a shell extending out in every direction into interstellar space as far as a light year (60,000 AU) or more. We've gotten pretty good at detecting Kuiper belt objects in recent decades (they've found dozens of Pluto-sized objects, hence the recent controversy over Pluto's planetary status), but for the Oort cloud you don't really know where to look. No direct observations of Oort objects have yet been made, as far as I'm aware.

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That said, the largest of the known Kuiper belt objects were predicted because of their observed gravitational effects on the other planets, and they are quite small (only a few are larger than tiny Pluto). A Jupiter-mass planet out in trans-Neptunian space would have a very significant, detectable, and predictable effect on the rest of the solar system, and would be easy to find once predicted. There may still be undetected larger-than-Pluto objects out there, but something like Nemesis really isn't possible.

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Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:16 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
So why did they come with the oort cloud theory?


Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:43 pm
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Post Re: Hyperspace
Semi-related

http://workshop.chromeexperiments.com/stars/


Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:57 pm
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Post Re: Hyperspace
well, i'll just post http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier:_Elite_II which has a insanely detailed starmap, given that it has oribital data and all such stuff, including history and political data on every system, and it fits on a single dd disk(660kb) the compression is very impressive...

so lets sum it up, 3d engine, lots of 3d objects, huge and detailed starmap(that is actually pretty accurate with the real world), sandbox type game.
actually came up with math for it WAY back and i think it was more stars than bytes on the disk....as mentioned, insane compression.

and as a side note, http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/146 ... -dangerous david braben is going at it for a third time....could get awesome.


Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:07 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
Karst45 wrote:
So why did they come with the oort cloud theory?

It started as an attempt to answer the question of where the long-period comets come from... if you plot the orbits of the long-period comets, you notice they come from WAY outside the solar system. If you multiply the number of observed long-period comets by the number that must be out there, especially considering that comets have limited lifespans once they enter the inner solar system, the number gets big fast. In the 50's Jan Oort presented a theory of how these comets got there (gravitational ejection from the early solar proplyd), and as I understand it that theory still fits the observed facts today.

We've never directly observed an Oort object outside the inner solar system because they're tiny, cold, dimly-lit, distant, and in unpredictable orbits. Folks who talk about objects being easy to detect in space need to remember that such objects need to be discerned against the background of the universe, and that's not always so easy unless you know exactly where to look.

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Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:15 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
Quote:
We've never directly observed an Oort object outside the inner solar system because they're tiny, cold, dimly-lit, distant, and in unpredictable orbits.


Well, as far as I remember there is this "dwarf planet" called Sedna which could belong to some kind of "inner Oort Cloud". But that theory sounded highly speculative to me at that time and I don´t know what changed in the last ~4 years or so.

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Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:08 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
I guess that depends on how you choose to define where the Kuiper belt ends and the Oort cloud begins, but even with an aphelion of 937 AU, Sedna is only a tiny fraction of the distance of most of the objects in the Oort cloud.

We've got some wacky stuff out there, and the scales of the outer solar system boggle the imagination.

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Post Re: Hyperspace
Perhaps not as spectacular as Nemesis speculation, Big Ben in Peter Watts' Blindsight was a pretty nice barely visible small brow dwarf serving as a stage for some neat alien first contact adventuring. I haven't been able to read a distance for the object out of the book yet tho (PS: you can read PW's works on his website). The distance was expressed through a neicely technobabbly fashion referring to quantum waveform collapse and related magic.

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Fri Nov 23, 2012 6:20 pm
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Post Re: Hyperspace
Necroposting FTW!

Arioch wrote:
Trantor wrote:
Arioch wrote:
Given that the frequency of stars seems to go up as the size comes down, it's logical to expect that there are a significant number of brown dwarfs. Unfortunately I haven't seen much current evidence (or even much theory) that soldily predicts how many there are.

Me neither, but related to that link i found an article in a german newspaper where they state that they found 100 new "suns"/brown dwarfs in a radius less than 40 ly around earth.
http://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/welt ... 08,00.html

And they say there´s the possibility of even more brown dwarfs, maybe even nearer than proxima centauri.

That would be surprising, if there was one that close and we hadn't detected it. But you never know.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WISE_1049-5319

Huzzah.
More Busstations. ;)
Works for the Outsiderverse.

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Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:43 pm
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Post Re: Hyperspace
The line you quoted was referring to the possibility of a brown dwarf closer than Proxima Centauri, which the example you linked is not.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:50 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
Arioch wrote:
The line you quoted was referring to the possibility of a brown dwarf closer than Proxima Centauri, which the example you linked is not.

Neither link says that.

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:30 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
Trantor wrote:
Huzzah.
More Busstations. ;)
Works for the Outsiderverse.


Maybe the mass difference between a G -and L class star is too steep for a safe hyper-jump? :P
But if not, it looks like a good inbetween jump from Alpha Centauri to Sirius. 8-)

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Fri Mar 15, 2013 1:18 pm
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Post Re: Hyperspace
Small necropost. Just had some questions on this subject, the answers to which I like as not found. Maybe just missed, but in general, here:

1) Whether such maneuvers are possible? If "yes", then will they hyperjump, or it will be just a "long" jump in ordinary space?
Spoiler: show
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Is it feasible feint ears? And what happens to the vessel / crew at the points of the trajectory, marked in blue?

Spoiler: show
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Fri Apr 22, 2016 3:48 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
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Tamri wrote:
1) Whether such maneuvers are possible? If "yes", then will they hyperjump, or it will be just a "long" jump in ordinary space?

In Fig.I, jumps (A) and (B) are not possible; activating the jump drive will detach you from spacetime, but you must have a velocity vector that pulls you away from spacetime to escape into hyperspace. The energy of the jump itself gives you a little bit of +hyperspace momentum, but that's not enough (at least with the tech of the major combatants) to escape; the rest must come from your real-space velocity. Real-space velocity can only be built up tangent to the white line that is spacetime, and so in order to successfully enter hyperspace you need to jump from a point in realspace that is curved. That's why gravity wells are necessary for jumps: you can't just leap into hyperspace from a flat stretch of space (with the tech of the major combatants) .

Jump (C) might be theoretically possible, if the planets were of exactly the right masses, but it would only work for the brief time that the planets were properly aligned in their orbits.

Jumping towards a nearby mass usually results in a collision with that mass, as the gravity of the mass pulls you in, and since you're starting with a negative hyperspace momentum, in general only bad things can happen. The arc of jump (E) might be possible if a very high velocity was used, but such a small arrival target is hard to hit (as hyperspace is unpredictable), and even if you hit it it's unlikely that you'd successfully re-enter at such a small target destination; you'd more likely bounce off or punch through (G). More on that below. Arc (D) is also possible with a high enough jump velocity, but it will result in entry to negative hyperspace.

Tamri wrote:
Is it feasible feint ears? And what happens to the vessel / crew at the points of the trajectory, marked in blue?

The trajectory shown in Fig.III is theoretically possible, but it would take an incredible stroke of luck to be able to hit your target at point (H), and at the correct angle; it's more likely that you'd bounce again and fall into the star. When the object in hyperspace reconnects with real spacetime, there are three possible outcomes depending on the angle of entry and local curvature of spacetime: if it is very close to a tangent at a curved point in spacetime, the object will re-enter real space. If the entry angle is too far off the tangent but still shallow, the object will bounce off of the "surface tension" of spacetime back into hyperspace. If the entry angle is too steep, the object may punch through spacetime and be liberated into negative hyperspace.

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Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:10 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
Don't play around with the Jump drive... the answers you seek.. MAY FIND YOU!

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Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:09 pm
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Post Re: Hyperspace
I might not like reviving old posts, but I think it's still better than having several similar named threads scattered around the forum - this way you have all the answers in one place. But since I (hope to) add something meaningful, I think it's justified.

First: Fig. III in viewtopic.php?p=23667#p23667 shows that 'bouncing' off the spacetime curvature results in a series of ever smaller 'hops', and together with the premise that a re-entry can be successful when then spacetime closely matches the 'hyperspace depth change', I could see that an unlucky ship which overshot the destination would surely come to a rest, much like a rock skipping the surface of a lake, but after a number of skips sinking in.

Of course, said ship would be stranded in deep space, and in absence of a gravity well pretty much doomed, too.

Second: I had about the idea on reading the fanfic "What to do with Jardin", as in, making gracious assumptions about hyperspace physics and trying a really desperate boneheaded move to have at least a slight chance of survival.

Of course, 'official textbooks' would never discuss it, or even mention it, but when in positive hyperspace, there is a 'drag down' towards normal spacetime, and textbooks would not discuss about negative hyperspace. For them, if you end up there, you're lost, end of story. As in, the 'drag down' would put you deeper and deeper into the negative, with no chance of return.

So, one of the gracious assumptions would be that the 'drag' could be reversed as well, that when someone is in negative hyperspace, it would be a 'drag up' towards normal spacetime, making this a mirror to the positive one.

Now, here comes the Hail Mary move that would allow the "double jump" out of a certain trap, the truly miraculous move that would leave everyone guessing...

I could try myself on a crude sketch (that's about the most I could achieve...), but what I'm thinking about is to aim a jump to the FAR side of the gravity well of a targeted star, so that the ship would intentionally punch through the spacetime barrier into negative Hyperspace. (like 'G' in Fig. II). Now, with the gratious assumption that the 'drag' would be reversed, the ship would appear normal spacetime from BELOW and, given my first assumption it would be able to re-enter normal spacetime... though from below, rather than above, and end up on the far side of the gravity well of the second star, too, not on the near side like with conventional jumps.

The 'green' jump curve would look much like a sine curve in this case, crossing the spacetime barrier once or twice rather than the usual arc between starting and destination system.

Might be it would never appear in the comic. But this is at least the sort of "do or die" move I would opt for when I see myself boxed in from all sides.

Food for thought, don't you say?


Fri Feb 03, 2017 10:56 am
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Post Re: Hyperspace
If the effect of gravity in negative hyperspace mirrored that of hyperspace, then as with hyperspace, all objects would eventually return to normal space, and negative hyperspace would be just another section of hyperspace. However, negative hyperspace is the inverse of hyperspace, and the curvature created by mass in realspace propels objects away from realspace, not towards, and so a ballistic object will "fall" deeper into negative hyperspace.

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