Cultural shock/differences

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bunnyboy
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by bunnyboy »

I think other than insults, the stronger swearwords are forgotten magic. In ancient times the sight of the female genitals was believed to have power to drive away evil spirits. Search for sheela na gig, which were guarding to doors and gates of cities and churches. So these words actually means: "With powers of XXX, I will drive bad luck/spirits away!" Or perhaps it is only in my home country as some of our swears are names of our pagan gods.

But I would find it funny. If a random loroi fumbles, then jumps around holdind the pained part of her body swearing like master and Beryl explaining it to Alex with serious face. "She is using an ancient ritual to drive away malicious spirits, whitch have wronged her."
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Victor_D »

Solemn wrote:I wouldn't be too sure about that, actually.

Sanctioned sex between a worthy Loroi female and a Loroi male is not a "lowly" activity in Loroi culture, but that's far from the only sexual practice that can theoretically occur there.

Sex with Loroi males is honorable, but it is the only sexual practice that their cultures would exalt in that particular way and to that particular extent. Sex outside of the honored traditions is probably looked down upon; I would think pornography and masturbation would, in addition to being antithetical to their honorable tradition, be considered decadent self-indulgence in a fairly unselfish and spartan society. So a phrase with the meaning of "go fuck yourself" would if anything carry additional oomph, as it would carry a context of "you can go violate social propriety and indulge yourself in a decadent manner you decadent, honorless, non-breeding civilian." Since, after all, a warrior has earned their mating rites at least once, but a civilian...
From what I have read, Loroi females don't really have a strong sex drive, certainly not as strong one as humans do (both male and female, contrary to the popular myth). For a vast majority of their lives their need for intimacy is satisfied by telepathic contact with their friends. I'd be surprised if they even masturbated. Although it is possible that the concept might be known to them, and considered highly aberrant. As such, it could form a basis for an insult, yes.
(...)
And a Loroi who tells another to commit sexual acts on an alien or animal would not just be telling her to engage in an unclean sexual act, the way it is among some humans. I think that amongst the Loroi, only the very lowest of the low, socially speaking, would have sought out interspecies "contact" of that variety, even though there are a host of sentient aliens amongst them. Only those Loroi who have completely given up on even the vaguest shred of hope of ever earning actual breeding rigths. "Go climb a Barsam" would carry a lot more weight for their females than a similar insult ever could for our females, because to the Loroi that is an activity that only the lowest of the low would ever think to engage in. Because it's not just a sexual insult, but a heavy status insult as well.

So I think after they formalize their relationship with humanity, "go screw a human" will slowly become one of the most popular insults in Loroi space.

Not least of all because of the human interest in the matter.
I'd say 'screwing a human' would be far less of a disgusting image than 'climbing a Barsam'. It depends on what status would humans have in a Loroi society, we discussed that aimlessly in another thread.

---

On a general note, it seems to me that English as a language is permeated with sex, either in form of expletives or in form of constant innuendo. Other human languages, not so much. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if a species with considerably different reproductive culture considered sex-based swearing as a strange concept. Imagine a species whose language would be full of dirty jokes/insults based on something that carries no special connotations in our culture, say, colours, geometric shapes, stuff like that. We could of course understand that they think about it differently, but we wouldn't really "get it". I suspect Loroi might see our sex-based expletives in similar way.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by GeoModder »

Victor_D wrote:
Solemn wrote:On a general note, it seems to me that English as a language is permeated with sex, either in form of expletives or in form of constant innuendo. Other human languages, not so much. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if a species with considerably different reproductive culture considered sex-based swearing as a strange concept. Imagine a species whose language would be full of dirty jokes/insults based on something that carries no special connotations in our culture, say, colours, geometric shapes, stuff like that. We could of course understand that they think about it differently, but we wouldn't really "get it". I suspect Loroi might see our sex-based expletives in similar way.
You sure about that? Perhaps you're just too accustomed to your language's own expletives/innuendo, so you don't really experience those anymore as sexual in origin? ;)
I know my own language, while not English, has plenty of similar innuendo which is mosttimes untranslatable.
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Suederwind »

I know my own language, while not English, has plenty of similar innuendo which is mosttimes untranslatable.
There is a lot of that in german, too. Often in combination with others. However, we have more swearwords based on feces and animals, I think.
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Yiuel
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Yiuel »

I speak five languages and, trust me, despite my general tendency not to notice such innuendos, sexual innuendos permeate all of them. :)
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by sunphoenix »

lol. This is an... interesting subject. but I think I hold with the sentiment that with the Loroi being all telepathic and very use to... heh... speaking their minds. I think they would more than likely just say what they think of a person without the varnish of tact.

"Shut up you useless, arrogant, despicable fool! Your betters are speaking!"

...in example.
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Victor_D »

GeoModder wrote:You sure about that? Perhaps you're just too accustomed to your language's own expletives/innuendo, so you don't really experience those anymore as sexual in origin? ;)
I know my own language, while not English, has plenty of similar innuendo which is mosttimes untranslatable.
There is some, obviously, but not nearly as much. I am often translating stuff from English to my language, and I can't but marvel at how easy it is to add hidden sexual meanings to pretty much any sentence :)

I think the nature of English as an isolating, analytical language which almost lacks inflections, can turn any noun to a verb, and creates wild shifts in meaning by changing prepositions/phrasal verbs is really conducive to innuendo in general, sexual or otherwise.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Arioch »

It's important to remember that the Loroi are not a verbal culture; for them, the spoken word is a "second language" which requires specific thought and effort to use. Verbal interjections, expletives, curses and the like will be things the Loroi won't use under normal circumstances. Nor will they mutter under their breaths or talk to themselves or "think out loud." Visceral responses to pain or anger or surprise or disbelief will be usually telepathic rather than verbal. I can think of two notable exceptions: one is laughter. The other is that a Loroi who completely lost her composure might cry out in extreme pain or terror, but such an outburst would probably not have verbal content (a Loroi might scream in pain, but would probably not shout "ouch!").

There are no "curse words" because the words themselves have little power for the Loroi; the true profanity is in the intent and content of the whole message, and especially in the hatred or vehemence with which it is delivered, both of which will be clearly communicated when using telepathy. Spoken words are used to dissemble or be polite; telepathy is used to tell that so-and-so exactly what you really think of her.
VictorValor wrote:What I wonder is not the culture shock between Loroi Military Culture and Terran Civilian Culture, but Loroi Military Culture and Terran Military Culture. All current existing militaries, both conscript and volunteer, view military service as a civic function, that a citizen is expected or encouraged to take part in the defense of the political community. How would the Loroi view what to them would be a system of thought where the boundary between civilian and soldier is heavily blurred? How would they view the warriors this "citizen-soldier" culture produces? Would they see our volunteer forces as mercenaries and our conscript forces as amateur rabble?
The Loroi are probably inclined to think that their own system is superior, but they've met (and fought against) many other alien cultures who do things differently. I think that the Loroi would respect any soldiers who fought well, regardless of what kind of system they came from.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Jericho »

Arioch wrote:It's important to remember that the Loroi are not a verbal culture; for them, the spoken word is a "second language" which requires specific thought and effort to use. Verbal interjections, expletives, curses and the like will be things the Loroi won't use under normal circumstances. Nor will they mutter under their breaths or talk to themselves or "think out loud." Visceral responses to pain or anger or surprise or disbelief will be usually telepathic rather than verbal. I can think of two notable exceptions: one is laughter. The other is that a Loroi who completely lost her composure might cry out in extreme pain or terror, but such an outburst would probably not have verbal content (a Loroi might scream in pain, but would probably not shout "ouch!").

There are no "curse words" because the words themselves have little power for the Loroi; the true profanity is in the intent and content of the whole message, and especially in the hatred or vehemence with which it is delivered, both of which will be clearly communicated when using telepathy. Spoken words are used to dissemble or be polite; telepathy is used to tell that so-and-so exactly what you really think of her.
Interesting but a few questions.

1 I thought it was impolite for loroi to speak verbally and they are easily upset due to their cultural association with words and combat.

2 No curse words okay. But they must have some form of verbal insult for the time when they wish to anger other loroi or do they not? I belive verbal abuse is common in loroi rites of passage so some sort of emotionally charged language must be involved (and by that i mean words or phrases that a loroi would find offensive).

3 How can losing composure get a loroi to scream? We scream when frightened to alert potential friends to our peril it's an instinct. Why would the loroi even have that?
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Arioch »

Jericho wrote: I thought it was impolite for loroi to speak verbally and they are easily upset due to their cultural association with words and combat.
Spoken words are used in diplomacy, either because you're trying to conceal information or you don't trust the other party not to telepathically attack you. Such diplomatic communication may be overtly hostile in content ("I am going to attack you now"), and the use of the spoken word itself may be considered an insult (as it indicates distrust or subterfuge), but the language itself is usually technically polite.
Jericho wrote: No curse words okay. But they must have some form of verbal insult for the time when they wish to anger other loroi or do they not? I belive verbal abuse is common in loroi rites of passage so some sort of emotionally charged language must be involved (and by that i mean words or phrases that a loroi would find offensive).

You don't need offensive words to insult someone; just tell them what you think of them. "You are ugly and your mother dresses you funny." A racist Loroi might call her enemy a "filthy Arran miros", but none of those words are inherently offensive in and of themselves.
Jericho wrote: How can losing composure get a loroi to scream? We scream when frightened to alert potential friends to our peril it's an instinct. Why would the loroi even have that?
For the same reason that Loroi laugh out loud.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Jericho »

Arioch wrote: Spoken words are used in diplomacy, either because you're trying to conceal information or you don't trust the other party not to telepathically attack you. Such diplomatic communication may be overtly hostile in content ("I am going to attack you now"), and the use of the spoken word itself may be considered an insult (as it indicates distrust or subterfuge), but the language itself is usually technically polite.

You don't need offensive words to insult someone; just tell them what you think of them. "You are ugly and your mother dresses you funny." A racist Loroi might call her enemy a "filthy Arran miros", but none of those words are inherently offensive in and of themselves.
Ah... that explains it.
For the same reason that Loroi laugh out loud.
Okey i should have really seen that coming :lol: (sorry just my swedish humor).
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Absalom »

Solemn wrote:Also, I have heard that several human cultures use copulation with animals as harsh insults, along the lines of "go take a horse's dick," "screw a pig," that sort of thing. English is somewhat limited on that front; our animal insults are generally fairly tame and nonsexual.
I imagine that if most of us still lived on farms they'd be much more common. But for that matter, we apparently have blunted some of our curse words by overuse. "Thief" and "Liar" apparently used to be fighting words.
Victor_D wrote:I think the nature of English as an isolating, analytical language which almost lacks inflections, can turn any noun to a verb, and creates wild shifts in meaning by changing prepositions/phrasal verbs is really conducive to innuendo in general, sexual or otherwise.
In theory, you can get some really good dialogue if you try to make use of that.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by VictorValor »

fredgiblet wrote:My expectation is that this is the rule, not the exception, so I doubt they'll feel strongly about it when applied to us.
That they have encountered examples of non-caste-based military service systems before, but that tells us nothing of how they would view it. Also, from what we've seen of them so far, meeting all sorts of aliens hasn't really hindered the Loroi's ability to form strongly-held preconceptions.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by discord »

absalom: curious question, what ARE fighting words nowadays? not talking testosterone filled teen fighting words, but something reasonably sensible adult fighting words?....it is curious since i can't really come up with anything, are we really THAT lawyer whipped?

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Charlie »

I wouldn`t know any sensible fighting words, most of them are a drivel filled rehash. However, I find that spiting either on the ground or directly at me to be extremely offensive, I have cracked heads for that insult.
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Smithy »

Well spitting in someone's face is battery plain and simple, so I guess you could call that an incitement to violence. (Tangent) Which is what irritates me with this anti-technologist protesters at Balcombe, Sussex, not just because their wrong (that's a different rant), but because my cousin-in-law who is a sergeant in the Sussex police has had these wonderful-peace-loving-new-agey people quite literally spit in his face.... (Tangent over)

I can't really comment, as I think "fighting words" is a particularly North American legal concept. But again seems to come under the broad subjectivity of incitement to violence, or murder.

But I think to assume English (authentic or otherwise), would contain such specific words for fighting is to one ignore the cornucopia of mongrel-like collection of words the English language has been so kind to gift us, but secondly and importantly is to forget the dynamic ways in which we can use these words. I think comments attesting to this effect have already been mentioned above.

There are plenty of words, and plenty of ways to weave them for your "fighting talk", saying otherwise I think just makes you unimaginative (I jest).

Just read some of the classic Ashes sledging through the years for some inspiration!

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Absalom »

discord wrote:absalom: curious question, what ARE fighting words nowadays? not talking testosterone filled teen fighting words, but something reasonably sensible adult fighting words?....it is curious since i can't really come up with anything, are we really THAT lawyer whipped?
Well, without putting too much thought into it, I'd say that telling a Muslim that his mother has sex with pigs for money would count as fighting words. And where, in any of that, is even a single word that would count as profanity in isolation? As Smithy said, it's just a matter of knowing how to use the language.

That having been said, it really does matter, I think, if you and your opponent have already been worked up. Particular phrases that're enough to start a fight will tend to be rare, mostly because people aren't generally hot-headed enough for anything in particular to work, you have to find a soft spot. That having been said, the prideful are liable to be the easiest to stir up: if they think that your words can damage something they feel the need to defend, then you're half of the way to a fight by just picking the right subject.

Beyond that, it's worth noting that the Norse equivalent of the bard (the skald, if I remember correctly) had a place on the battlefield: this had absolutely everything to do with their skill with words, and absolutely nothing to do with their skill with diplomacy :twisted: .

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