Cultural shock/differences

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Arioch
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Arioch »

JQBogus wrote:Have I really explained it that poorly?
I get what you're saying. As you can probably guess, the prohibitions against this sort of thing working are based on story considerations, but with that in mind, it's not hard to find reasons within the already established systems as to why this might be the case.

Farsensing is keyed to the ability of "signature detection," or the detection of a living mind. Since we know that this ability is effective at detecting Umiak and other non-telepathic beings, this means the signature is not based on any telepathic quality of the target mind. I don't see that there's any reason to expect that the addition of a telepathic amplifier on the detection target will significantly change this signature. Farseers can tell a Loroi from an Umiak, but it's not because they're picking up the telepathic sendings from the Loroi; it's because the Loroi mental signature "tastes" different from the Umiak one.

Farseers can, in some cases, detect amplified telepathic sendings at distance, but this is a separate ability from signature detection.
JQBogus wrote:Couldn't the Umiak simply pack several old freighters to the gills with sentients, and use them as decoys in a 'big push' into Loroi space? If Farseers can't distinguish individuals or groups in somewhat close proximity to each other at interstellar distances, then 50,000 'volunteers' packed into a single freighter look the same as a ~100 ship Umiak fleet. Send out 50 freighters and 3 fleets, and the fleets will probably get through without suffering the normal attrition attacks, as the Loroi haven't got enough intercept groups to intercept all the contacts. They'd have to intercept with picket ships, then have the pickets escape and relay their contact's identity in person. By which time, the Umiak fleet may have traversed quite a lot of the steppes.
I doubt that you can fit 50,000 Umiak on a single transport, but it's true that there's no difference to a Farseer between a civilian transport and a warship. However, I don't see the value in using such vessels as decoys.

For starters, I think your assumption that the Loroi can't intercept 50 decoys is an incorrect one; there are only a finite number of routes across the Steppes, and the Umiak have a lot of ships... warships. The Umiak have certainly at times in the past flooded every possible route with fleets of real warships, and the Loroi have had to find ways to deal with this. The Loroi have a lot of interdiction assets -- the one incursion at Naam drew three separate Loroi strike groups into the system. Each strike group typically has 30-40 vessels; they can split up if they need to. They have to be able to find the enemy forces and prioritize which ones are really a threat. This will be a drill the Loroi have run many times. Finding unarmed transports filled with Umiak civilians would probably be considered a rare treat. In such a case there's no relay necessary; the destruction of the transport will remove it from the Farseers' view.

Might such decoys spread Loroi raiders thin? Perhaps, in which case there would probably be fewer interdiction strikes on the "real" fleet before it hits Loroi lines. Might the decoys delay detection of the real fleet and interfere with the ability of the Loroi heavy assets to assemble at the targeted system in Loroi territory? Unlikely; all the contacts will be investigated and the real fleet will be identified in pretty much the same time frame as if it had crossed alone. Keep in mind that the Loroi heavy battle groups are not drawn into the Steppes, but instead converge within Loroi territory to meet the Umiak force when it has finished its Steppes transit.

If the Umiak could somehow hide the real fleet from detection, then that would be a serious problem for the Loroi, and the use of decoys could make it even worse. But using decoys without such ability would at best allow an assault fleet to suffer fewer losses from interdiction strikes during the Steppes crossing, and that doesn't sound like an advantage worth sacrificing the lives of 2.5 million Umiak civilians for.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Trantor »

JQBogus wrote:It is a purely passive use of the farsensing ability.
Even that let Farseers burn out.
sapere aude.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Nemo »

fredgiblet wrote:I imagine the idea of a voluntary military is common , with the Loroi and Umiak being exceptions rather than the rule. I would guess that his choice will be seen in a positive light, as they will probably assume, unless corrected, that the military is the most prestigious choice. If he specifically explains that the Scout Corps only takes the best and the contact mission only the best of the Scout Corps they might be impressed, or they might think he's just boasting.

I'd take a different train of thought if we accept that Loroi think more highly of themselves than other races. "So this 'Guardian of the Garden' is among their best warriors? Their brightest minds?"

Ya... I don't see that going over well with Stillstorm, or, really, Tempo for that matter.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by JQBogus »

Nemo wrote: I'd take a different train of thought if we accept that Loroi think more highly of themselves than other races. "So this 'Guardian of the Garden' is among their best warriors? Their brightest minds?"

Ya... I don't see that going over well with Stillstorm, or, really, Tempo for that matter.

As part of their analysis of human potential to contribute to the war effort, they may run him through some simulated fleet actions. When they do, they may get some surprises, like Commander Mazey did, as mentioned on page 92/93. So far they've only seen the 'behavioral demerits' side of him.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Victor_D »

Nemo wrote:I'd take a different train of thought if we accept that Loroi think more highly of themselves than other races. "So this 'Guardian of the Garden' is among their best warriors? Their brightest minds?"

Ya... I don't see that going over well with Stillstorm, or, really, Tempo for that matter.
Uhm, I know the Loroi are quite dismissive of other races, but they haven't really seen Alex *do* anything but talk, because he had no opportunity to show anything else.

Maybe if he crushed a few Umiak fleets while outnumbered 20:1 in a simulated battle, they'd change their mind.
JQBogus wrote:As part of their analysis of human potential to contribute to the war effort, they may run him through some simulated fleet actions. When they do, they may get some surprises, like Commander Mazey did, as mentioned on page 92/93. So far they've only seen the 'behavioral demerits' side of him.
(I really should start reading all the replies in the thread before adding my own :oops: )

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by JQBogus »

Victor_D wrote: (I really should start reading all the replies in the thread before adding my own :oops: )

I am just happy knowing that someone agrees with me :)

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Jericho »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntrSnMPr2X4

I just watched this clip with Stephen Fry and it really got me thinking. How would the loroi react to the fact that one of the most common curses in our international language (if not the most common) is the same word we use for the act of mating?
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through. General C.H Melchett commander of some unknown british regiment in the western front.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Trantor »

Jericho wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntrSnMPr2X4

I just watched this clip with Stephen Fry and it really got me thinking. How would the loroi react to the fact that one of the most common curses in our international language (if not the most common) is the same word we use for the act of mating?
They´ll quickly find the link to the distorted relationship to sexuality in the english speaking part of the world?

scnr.
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Yiuel »

Trantor wrote:
Jericho wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntrSnMPr2X4

I just watched this clip with Stephen Fry and it really got me thinking. How would the loroi react to the fact that one of the most common curses in our international language (if not the most common) is the same word we use for the act of mating?
They´ll quickly find the link to the distorted relationship to sexuality in the english speaking part of the world?

scnr.
Hilariously subverted when it comes to my first language, as the same word etymologically is used as a pure expletive devoid of any meaning.
la nɔtʀʏltsɪmœ ʀɛv, dɛ ʒã puʀ la pʀɔtɛʒe
nu vœnõ dõkœ dœ tupaʀtu, puʀ ɛtʀœ sa ɡʀãdaʀme
dœ la site pʀɔtɛktœʀ, dœ sœ ʀɛvœ defãsœʀ
ynjõ dœ la fɔʀsœ dœ tus, nu vwasijalɔʀ lɛzɔʀiɔnɪt

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VictorValor
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by VictorValor »

What I wonder is not the culture shock between Loroi Military Culture and Terran Civilian Culture, but Loroi Military Culture and Terran Military Culture. All current existing militaries, both conscript and volunteer, view military service as a civic function, that a citizen is expected or encouraged to take part in the defense of the political community. How would the Loroi view what to them would be a system of thought where the boundary between civilian and soldier is heavily blurred? How would they view the warriors this "citizen-soldier" culture produces? Would they see our volunteer forces as mercenaries and our conscript forces as amateur rabble?
Jericho wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntrSnMPr2X4

I just watched this clip with Stephen Fry and it really got me thinking. How would the loroi react to the fact that one of the most common curses in our international language (if not the most common) is the same word we use for the act of mating?
While we use the F-word as a verb for sex, we also use it as a verb for violence.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by fredgiblet »

VictorValor wrote:What I wonder is not the culture shock between Loroi Military Culture and Terran Civilian Culture, but Loroi Military Culture and Terran Military Culture. All current existing militaries, both conscript and volunteer, view military service as a civic function, that a citizen is expected or encouraged to take part in the defense of the political community. How would the Loroi view what to them would be a system of thought where the boundary between civilian and soldier is heavily blurred? How would they view the warriors this "citizen-soldier" culture produces? Would they see our volunteer forces as mercenaries and our conscript forces as amateur rabble?
My expectation is that this is the rule, not the exception, so I doubt they'll feel strongly about it when applied to us.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Victor_D »

Trantor wrote:They´ll quickly find the link to the distorted relationship to sexuality in the english speaking part of the world?
Quoted for truth.

---

Seriously though, what are Loroi expletives and swear words based upon? In Czech (my first language), most personal insults are based on a) comparison with animals (e.g. pigs, cows, oxen, goats, hens, female dogs, annoying insects); b) mental/physical retardation (e.g. idiot, cretin, imbecile); c) low social standing (e.g. prostitute, beggar); d) genital organs (e.g. dick, vagina); e) words related to excrements and their production (e.g. many semantic variations of shit, toilet, smell, etc.); and f) sexual functions (e.g. ---).

Of these, my language prefers A-type words for not-so-strong swear words while D- and E-type are quite strong. F-type is pretty rare, I can think of just a few words and none of them are even close to the popularity of the primary English swear word.

Since sex is not that common and not considered as a "lowly" activity in Loroi culture, I'd be surprised if it was abused in the swear-word lexicon. Mental/physical retardation is rare given the Loroi eugenic policies, but that could make words based on it even more biting and strong (suggesting the target person should be eliminated from the gene pool). I'd expect a great deal of animal-based insults (including comparison with sentient alien species) and maybe also some excrement based ones (it seems to be a universal taboo in human cultures), but D-type insults based on genitals would probably make little sense in a society where 90% of people belong to one sex, while the other lives a separate life. I don't know about C-type, but I imagine for a warrior to allude that another warrior is unworthy, she would compare her to a civilian.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Yiuel »

A place should be given to those languages who rely on sacredness instead; this is the case in my native language, to the point that the word for swearing itself derives from "being holy".

But, from what I can understand of Loroi ethology, they do not use paraboles, which would mean that, if they are angry or otherwise discontent, they don't need expletives; they just say what they mean in the most straightforward way. In effect, they won't say the f-word, they'll simply go and say "I failed/It hurts/Get lost" or the likes, saying simply what they mean.
la nɔtʀʏltsɪmœ ʀɛv, dɛ ʒã puʀ la pʀɔtɛʒe
nu vœnõ dõkœ dœ tupaʀtu, puʀ ɛtʀœ sa ɡʀãdaʀme
dœ la site pʀɔtɛktœʀ, dœ sœ ʀɛvœ defãsœʀ
ynjõ dœ la fɔʀsœ dœ tus, nu vwasijalɔʀ lɛzɔʀiɔnɪt

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Victor_D »

Yiuel wrote:A place should be given to those languages who rely on sacredness instead; this is the case in my native language, to the point that the word for swearing itself derives from "being holy".


Ah, I knew I forgot something :lol: I am sorry, Czechs often tend to forget religion exists :)

Of course we also have many religion-based expletives/swear words, the most used being sakra, krucifix, and something that literally translates as 'jesus-mary'. These come from an era when blaspheming was an outrageous, scandalous thing to do. Today these words are used casually and are considered as very mild, almost polite expletives.
But, from what I can understand of Loroi ethology, they do not use paraboles, which would mean that, if they are angry or otherwise discontent, they don't need expletives; they just say what they mean in the most straightforward way. In effect, they won't say the f-word, they'll simply go and say "I failed/It hurts/Get lost" or the likes, saying simply what they mean.
In senzai, this is most likely the case.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Solemn »

Victor_D wrote:Since sex is not that common and not considered as a "lowly" activity in Loroi culture, I'd be surprised if it was abused in the swear-word lexicon.
I wouldn't be too sure about that, actually.

Sanctioned sex between a worthy Loroi female and a Loroi male is not a "lowly" activity in Loroi culture, but that's far from the only sexual practice that can theoretically occur there.

Sex with Loroi males is honorable, but it is the only sexual practice that their cultures would exalt in that particular way and to that particular extent. Sex outside of the honored traditions is probably looked down upon; I would think pornography and masturbation would, in addition to being antithetical to their honorable tradition, be considered decadent self-indulgence in a fairly unselfish and spartan society. So a phrase with the meaning of "go fuck yourself" would if anything carry additional oomph, as it would carry a context of "you can go violate social propriety and indulge yourself in a decadent manner you decadent, honorless, non-breeding civilian." Since, after all, a warrior has earned their mating rites at least once, but a civilian...

Also, I have heard that several human cultures use copulation with animals as harsh insults, along the lines of "go take a horse's dick," "screw a pig," that sort of thing. English is somewhat limited on that front; our animal insults are generally fairly tame and nonsexual. I hope that as English-speaking societies become increasingly multicultural we expand and strengthen our language on that front, but only time will tell.

Sex with animals is considered a degrading, filthy, degenerate and hideous act in most human societies. I think that for the Loroi it would if anything be even moreso.

And a Loroi who tells another to commit sexual acts on an alien or animal would not just be telling her to engage in an unclean sexual act, the way it is among some humans. I think that amongst the Loroi, only the very lowest of the low, socially speaking, would have sought out interspecies "contact" of that variety, even though there are a host of sentient aliens amongst them. Only those Loroi who have completely given up on even the vaguest shred of hope of ever earning actual breeding rigths. "Go climb a Barsam" would carry a lot more weight for their females than a similar insult ever could for our females, because to the Loroi that is an activity that only the lowest of the low would ever think to engage in. Because it's not just a sexual insult, but a heavy status insult as well.

So I think after they formalize their relationship with humanity, "go screw a human" will slowly become one of the most popular insults in Loroi space.

Not least of all because of the human interest in the matter.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by bunnyboy »

I think other than insults, the stronger swearwords are forgotten magic. In ancient times the sight of the female genitals was believed to have power to drive away evil spirits. Search for sheela na gig, which were guarding to doors and gates of cities and churches. So these words actually means: "With powers of XXX, I will drive bad luck/spirits away!" Or perhaps it is only in my home country as some of our swears are names of our pagan gods.

But I would find it funny. If a random loroi fumbles, then jumps around holdind the pained part of her body swearing like master and Beryl explaining it to Alex with serious face. "She is using an ancient ritual to drive away malicious spirits, whitch have wronged her."
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Victor_D »

Solemn wrote:I wouldn't be too sure about that, actually.

Sanctioned sex between a worthy Loroi female and a Loroi male is not a "lowly" activity in Loroi culture, but that's far from the only sexual practice that can theoretically occur there.

Sex with Loroi males is honorable, but it is the only sexual practice that their cultures would exalt in that particular way and to that particular extent. Sex outside of the honored traditions is probably looked down upon; I would think pornography and masturbation would, in addition to being antithetical to their honorable tradition, be considered decadent self-indulgence in a fairly unselfish and spartan society. So a phrase with the meaning of "go fuck yourself" would if anything carry additional oomph, as it would carry a context of "you can go violate social propriety and indulge yourself in a decadent manner you decadent, honorless, non-breeding civilian." Since, after all, a warrior has earned their mating rites at least once, but a civilian...
From what I have read, Loroi females don't really have a strong sex drive, certainly not as strong one as humans do (both male and female, contrary to the popular myth). For a vast majority of their lives their need for intimacy is satisfied by telepathic contact with their friends. I'd be surprised if they even masturbated. Although it is possible that the concept might be known to them, and considered highly aberrant. As such, it could form a basis for an insult, yes.
(...)
And a Loroi who tells another to commit sexual acts on an alien or animal would not just be telling her to engage in an unclean sexual act, the way it is among some humans. I think that amongst the Loroi, only the very lowest of the low, socially speaking, would have sought out interspecies "contact" of that variety, even though there are a host of sentient aliens amongst them. Only those Loroi who have completely given up on even the vaguest shred of hope of ever earning actual breeding rigths. "Go climb a Barsam" would carry a lot more weight for their females than a similar insult ever could for our females, because to the Loroi that is an activity that only the lowest of the low would ever think to engage in. Because it's not just a sexual insult, but a heavy status insult as well.

So I think after they formalize their relationship with humanity, "go screw a human" will slowly become one of the most popular insults in Loroi space.

Not least of all because of the human interest in the matter.
I'd say 'screwing a human' would be far less of a disgusting image than 'climbing a Barsam'. It depends on what status would humans have in a Loroi society, we discussed that aimlessly in another thread.

---

On a general note, it seems to me that English as a language is permeated with sex, either in form of expletives or in form of constant innuendo. Other human languages, not so much. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if a species with considerably different reproductive culture considered sex-based swearing as a strange concept. Imagine a species whose language would be full of dirty jokes/insults based on something that carries no special connotations in our culture, say, colours, geometric shapes, stuff like that. We could of course understand that they think about it differently, but we wouldn't really "get it". I suspect Loroi might see our sex-based expletives in similar way.

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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by GeoModder »

Victor_D wrote:
Solemn wrote:On a general note, it seems to me that English as a language is permeated with sex, either in form of expletives or in form of constant innuendo. Other human languages, not so much. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if a species with considerably different reproductive culture considered sex-based swearing as a strange concept. Imagine a species whose language would be full of dirty jokes/insults based on something that carries no special connotations in our culture, say, colours, geometric shapes, stuff like that. We could of course understand that they think about it differently, but we wouldn't really "get it". I suspect Loroi might see our sex-based expletives in similar way.
You sure about that? Perhaps you're just too accustomed to your language's own expletives/innuendo, so you don't really experience those anymore as sexual in origin? ;)
I know my own language, while not English, has plenty of similar innuendo which is mosttimes untranslatable.
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Suederwind »

I know my own language, while not English, has plenty of similar innuendo which is mosttimes untranslatable.
There is a lot of that in german, too. Often in combination with others. However, we have more swearwords based on feces and animals, I think.
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Re: Cultural shock/differences

Post by Yiuel »

I speak five languages and, trust me, despite my general tendency not to notice such innuendos, sexual innuendos permeate all of them. :)
la nɔtʀʏltsɪmœ ʀɛv, dɛ ʒã puʀ la pʀɔtɛʒe
nu vœnõ dõkœ dœ tupaʀtu, puʀ ɛtʀœ sa ɡʀãdaʀme
dœ la site pʀɔtɛktœʀ, dœ sœ ʀɛvœ defãsœʀ
ynjõ dœ la fɔʀsœ dœ tus, nu vwasijalɔʀ lɛzɔʀiɔnɪt

- The Chant of A Certain Army

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