Cultural shock/differences

[JQBogus]

I was just looking at the Loroi ship classes in the extras, and the Herald Corvette says :

"These small, fast, minimally armed vessels are used in large numbers for courier duty. Because of the lack of FTL communications, messages can only travel at the speed of the fastest ship."

Which heavily implies that the farseer telegraph network idea doesn't work, either because farseer resolution is not good enough, or because Amplifiers/Lotai don't alter signal strength, or because farseer sensitivity is not good enough,



If it is the first, a lack of resolution, and minds close to each other just become one big blob on the farseer radar....
Couldn't the Umiak simply pack several old freighters to the gills with sentients, and use them as decoys in a 'big push' into Loroi space? If Farseers can't distinguish individuals or groups in somewhat close proximity to each other at interstellar distances, then 50,000 'volunteers' packed into a single freighter look the same as a ~100 ship Umiak fleet. Send out 50 freighters and 3 fleets, and the fleets will probably get through without suffering the normal attrition attacks, as the Loroi haven't got enough intercept groups to intercept all the contacts. They'd have to intercept with picket ships, then have the pickets escape and relay their contact's identity in person. By which time, the Umiak fleet may have traversed quite a lot of the steppes.

If it is the second, that Amplifiers/Lotai make no difference to interstellar farseeing, there are a couple of options that would still make it work. First, the grisly option : modulate signal strength by attrition. Stock the com station with expendable intelligent beings, and just kill them one by one, with the time between killings making up the dots & dashes of the Morse Code signal. Second, the less grisly option, station several ships at the prearranged com area, and have them move into different patterns to communicate with the farseer in the other system.

The third option also has problems though. If the problem with the farseer telegraph is a lack of sensitivity among the farseers, then, theoreticaly, the grisly and the less grisly options would still work, but just require larger numbers of minds to be killed/rearranged. Perhaps the numbers needed preclude either option on moral or logistical grounds. Seems unlikely, though, that the assignment of 8 small ships to each major system in exchange for FTL communication is undoable.

[captainsmirk]

Using telepathy at interstellar FTL communication is possible, but limited to unusual situations in which the target is a known amplified Farseer who can detect a transmisson at a specific "frequency" and low enough power that it will not potentially lobotomize nearby ordinary Loroi.

I'll point once again to this specific sentence which would seem to indicate that a Farseer is required to receive interstellar telepathic communications. I would interpret that as meaning for the transmission to be weak enough to not fry the brain(s) of nearby (or indeed the receiving) Loroi it would be below the level a non-amplified Farseer could actually detect.

As for the Umiak methods of "disinformation" I can't believe that the Umiak have not attempted such tactics in the past, they certainly aren't stupid, so there must be some impracticality or counter-tactic that means that it isn't effective. If we can think of it it seems logical that the Umiak already have, they have indeed been facing this strategic problem directly for two decades and are likely to have put a lot of thought into it.


Nick

[JQBogus]

Using telepathy at interstellar FTL communication is possible, but limited to unusual situations in which the target is a known amplified Farseer who can detect a transmisson at a specific "frequency" and low enough power that it will not potentially lobotomize nearby ordinary Loroi.

I'll point once again to this specific sentence which would seem to indicate that a Farseer is required to receive interstellar telepathic communications. I would interpret that as meaning for the transmission to be weak enough to not fry the brain(s) of nearby (or indeed the receiving) Loroi it would be below the level a non-amplified Farseer could actually detect.

As for the Umiak methods of "disinformation" I can't believe that the Umiak have not attempted such tactics in the past, they certainly aren't stupid, so there must be some impracticality or counter-tactic that means that it isn't effective. If we can think of it it seems logical that the Umiak already have, they have indeed been facing this strategic problem directly for two decades and are likely to have put a lot of thought into it.


Nick

And I will point once again to the method I am proposing not requiring telepathic communications to be received or even transmitted. It is a method that relies on the farseer's ability to detect life signals (which is clearly already established in the setting), not on the Loroi ability to exchange mind to mind contact.

Again, if an amplified farseer can detect and localize life signals at interstellar distances, then arranging those life signals into patterns can be used to send messages. The life signals don't even need to be telepaths, so long as they're not humans.


This is not happening, so, as I see it, one of 3 things has prevented it from happening:

1) A farseer can't localize life signals at interstellar distances, which leads to the question about how they tell a freighter full of Umiak from a fleet full of Umiak.

2) A farseer can't discriminate single life signals, which leads to the question about why the Loroi cant just use larger ships for the 'telegraph'.

3) From how Farsensing has been presented, it will work. But Arioch just didn't think of it, so it isn't happening. Or he just hasn't thought of a reason why not.

[Absalom]

As I best recall, Farseerers burn out quickly, which means that you want to minimize their use so that they will last longer. On top of that, amplifiers increase burn-out speed (and Farseerers aren't the only ones who suffer this: Teidar, and likely others, apparently do as well). Finally, Farseerers only get interstellar life-form detection when amplified.

Incidentally, Mizol are capable of targeting specific individuals, so the tend to be used as the "send" end of interstellar reports. No awkward population movements required.

[JQBogus]

The method I am proposing doesn't require that anyone send, or that any individual is the target of a sending. It is a purely passive use of the farsensing ability.

Have I really explained it that poorly?

[Arioch]

Have I really explained it that poorly?

I get what you're saying. As you can probably guess, the prohibitions against this sort of thing working are based on story considerations, but with that in mind, it's not hard to find reasons within the already established systems as to why this might be the case.

Farsensing is keyed to the ability of "signature detection," or the detection of a living mind. Since we know that this ability is effective at detecting Umiak and other non-telepathic beings, this means the signature is not based on any telepathic quality of the target mind. I don't see that there's any reason to expect that the addition of a telepathic amplifier on the detection target will significantly change this signature. Farseers can tell a Loroi from an Umiak, but it's not because they're picking up the telepathic sendings from the Loroi; it's because the Loroi mental signature "tastes" different from the Umiak one.

Farseers can, in some cases, detect amplified telepathic sendings at distance, but this is a separate ability from signature detection.

Couldn't the Umiak simply pack several old freighters to the gills with sentients, and use them as decoys in a 'big push' into Loroi space? If Farseers can't distinguish individuals or groups in somewhat close proximity to each other at interstellar distances, then 50,000 'volunteers' packed into a single freighter look the same as a ~100 ship Umiak fleet. Send out 50 freighters and 3 fleets, and the fleets will probably get through without suffering the normal attrition attacks, as the Loroi haven't got enough intercept groups to intercept all the contacts. They'd have to intercept with picket ships, then have the pickets escape and relay their contact's identity in person. By which time, the Umiak fleet may have traversed quite a lot of the steppes.

I doubt that you can fit 50,000 Umiak on a single transport, but it's true that there's no difference to a Farseer between a civilian transport and a warship. However, I don't see the value in using such vessels as decoys.

For starters, I think your assumption that the Loroi can't intercept 50 decoys is an incorrect one; there are only a finite number of routes across the Steppes, and the Umiak have a lot of ships... warships. The Umiak have certainly at times in the past flooded every possible route with fleets of real warships, and the Loroi have had to find ways to deal with this. The Loroi have a lot of interdiction assets -- the one incursion at Naam drew three separate Loroi strike groups into the system. Each strike group typically has 30-40 vessels; they can split up if they need to. They have to be able to find the enemy forces and prioritize which ones are really a threat. This will be a drill the Loroi have run many times. Finding unarmed transports filled with Umiak civilians would probably be considered a rare treat. In such a case there's no relay necessary; the destruction of the transport will remove it from the Farseers' view.

Might such decoys spread Loroi raiders thin? Perhaps, in which case there would probably be fewer interdiction strikes on the "real" fleet before it hits Loroi lines. Might the decoys delay detection of the real fleet and interfere with the ability of the Loroi heavy assets to assemble at the targeted system in Loroi territory? Unlikely; all the contacts will be investigated and the real fleet will be identified in pretty much the same time frame as if it had crossed alone. Keep in mind that the Loroi heavy battle groups are not drawn into the Steppes, but instead converge within Loroi territory to meet the Umiak force when it has finished its Steppes transit.

If the Umiak could somehow hide the real fleet from detection, then that would be a serious problem for the Loroi, and the use of decoys could make it even worse. But using decoys without such ability would at best allow an assault fleet to suffer fewer losses from interdiction strikes during the Steppes crossing, and that doesn't sound like an advantage worth sacrificing the lives of 2.5 million Umiak civilians for.

[Trantor]

It is a purely passive use of the farsensing ability.

Even that let Farseers burn out.

[Nemo]

I imagine the idea of a voluntary military is common , with the Loroi and Umiak being exceptions rather than the rule. I would guess that his choice will be seen in a positive light, as they will probably assume, unless corrected, that the military is the most prestigious choice. If he specifically explains that the Scout Corps only takes the best and the contact mission only the best of the Scout Corps they might be impressed, or they might think he's just boasting.

I'd take a different train of thought if we accept that Loroi think more highly of themselves than other races. "So this 'Guardian of the Garden' is among their best warriors? Their brightest minds?"

Ya... I don't see that going over well with Stillstorm, or, really, Tempo for that matter.

[JQBogus]

I'd take a different train of thought if we accept that Loroi think more highly of themselves than other races. "So this 'Guardian of the Garden' is among their best warriors? Their brightest minds?"

Ya... I don't see that going over well with Stillstorm, or, really, Tempo for that matter.

As part of their analysis of human potential to contribute to the war effort, they may run him through some simulated fleet actions. When they do, they may get some surprises, like Commander Mazey did, as mentioned on page 92/93. So far they've only seen the 'behavioral demerits' side of him.

[Victor_D]

I'd take a different train of thought if we accept that Loroi think more highly of themselves than other races. "So this 'Guardian of the Garden' is among their best warriors? Their brightest minds?"

Ya... I don't see that going over well with Stillstorm, or, really, Tempo for that matter.

Uhm, I know the Loroi are quite dismissive of other races, but they haven't really seen Alex *do* anything but talk, because he had no opportunity to show anything else.

Maybe if he crushed a few Umiak fleets while outnumbered 20:1 in a simulated battle, they'd change their mind.

As part of their analysis of human potential to contribute to the war effort, they may run him through some simulated fleet actions. When they do, they may get some surprises, like Commander Mazey did, as mentioned on page 92/93. So far they've only seen the 'behavioral demerits' side of him.

(I really should start reading all the replies in the thread before adding my own )

[JQBogus]

(I really should start reading all the replies in the thread before adding my own )

I am just happy knowing that someone agrees with me

[Jericho]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntrSnMPr2X4

I just watched this clip with Stephen Fry and it really got me thinking. How would the loroi react to the fact that one of the most common curses in our international language (if not the most common) is the same word we use for the act of mating?

[Trantor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntrSnMPr2X4

I just watched this clip with Stephen Fry and it really got me thinking. How would the loroi react to the fact that one of the most common curses in our international language (if not the most common) is the same word we use for the act of mating?

They´ll quickly find the link to the distorted relationship to sexuality in the english speaking part of the world?

scnr.

[Yiuel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntrSnMPr2X4

I just watched this clip with Stephen Fry and it really got me thinking. How would the loroi react to the fact that one of the most common curses in our international language (if not the most common) is the same word we use for the act of mating?

They´ll quickly find the link to the distorted relationship to sexuality in the english speaking part of the world?

scnr.

Hilariously subverted when it comes to my first language, as the same word etymologically is used as a pure expletive devoid of any meaning.

[VictorValor]

What I wonder is not the culture shock between Loroi Military Culture and Terran Civilian Culture, but Loroi Military Culture and Terran Military Culture. All current existing militaries, both conscript and volunteer, view military service as a civic function, that a citizen is expected or encouraged to take part in the defense of the political community. How would the Loroi view what to them would be a system of thought where the boundary between civilian and soldier is heavily blurred? How would they view the warriors this "citizen-soldier" culture produces? Would they see our volunteer forces as mercenaries and our conscript forces as amateur rabble?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntrSnMPr2X4

I just watched this clip with Stephen Fry and it really got me thinking. How would the loroi react to the fact that one of the most common curses in our international language (if not the most common) is the same word we use for the act of mating?

While we use the F-word as a verb for sex, we also use it as a verb for violence.

[fredgiblet]

What I wonder is not the culture shock between Loroi Military Culture and Terran Civilian Culture, but Loroi Military Culture and Terran Military Culture. All current existing militaries, both conscript and volunteer, view military service as a civic function, that a citizen is expected or encouraged to take part in the defense of the political community. How would the Loroi view what to them would be a system of thought where the boundary between civilian and soldier is heavily blurred? How would they view the warriors this "citizen-soldier" culture produces? Would they see our volunteer forces as mercenaries and our conscript forces as amateur rabble?

My expectation is that this is the rule, not the exception, so I doubt they'll feel strongly about it when applied to us.

[Victor_D]

They´ll quickly find the link to the distorted relationship to sexuality in the english speaking part of the world?

Quoted for truth.

---

Seriously though, what are Loroi expletives and swear words based upon? In Czech (my first language), most personal insults are based on a) comparison with animals (e.g. pigs, cows, oxen, goats, hens, female dogs, annoying insects); b) mental/physical retardation (e.g. idiot, cretin, imbecile); c) low social standing (e.g. prostitute, beggar); d) genital organs (e.g. dick, vagina); e) words related to excrements and their production (e.g. many semantic variations of shit, toilet, smell, etc.); and f) sexual functions (e.g. ---).

Of these, my language prefers A-type words for not-so-strong swear words while D- and E-type are quite strong. F-type is pretty rare, I can think of just a few words and none of them are even close to the popularity of the primary English swear word.

Since sex is not that common and not considered as a "lowly" activity in Loroi culture, I'd be surprised if it was abused in the swear-word lexicon. Mental/physical retardation is rare given the Loroi eugenic policies, but that could make words based on it even more biting and strong (suggesting the target person should be eliminated from the gene pool). I'd expect a great deal of animal-based insults (including comparison with sentient alien species) and maybe also some excrement based ones (it seems to be a universal taboo in human cultures), but D-type insults based on genitals would probably make little sense in a society where 90% of people belong to one sex, while the other lives a separate life. I don't know about C-type, but I imagine for a warrior to allude that another warrior is unworthy, she would compare her to a civilian.

[Yiuel]

A place should be given to those languages who rely on sacredness instead; this is the case in my native language, to the point that the word for swearing itself derives from "being holy".

But, from what I can understand of Loroi ethology, they do not use paraboles, which would mean that, if they are angry or otherwise discontent, they don't need expletives; they just say what they mean in the most straightforward way. In effect, they won't say the f-word, they'll simply go and say "I failed/It hurts/Get lost" or the likes, saying simply what they mean.

[Victor_D]

A place should be given to those languages who rely on sacredness instead; this is the case in my native language, to the point that the word for swearing itself derives from "being holy".

Ah, I knew I forgot something I am sorry, Czechs often tend to forget religion exists

Of course we also have many religion-based expletives/swear words, the most used being sakra, krucifix, and something that literally translates as 'jesus-mary'. These come from an era when blaspheming was an outrageous, scandalous thing to do. Today these words are used casually and are considered as very mild, almost polite expletives.

But, from what I can understand of Loroi ethology, they do not use paraboles, which would mean that, if they are angry or otherwise discontent, they don't need expletives; they just say what they mean in the most straightforward way. In effect, they won't say the f-word, they'll simply go and say "I failed/It hurts/Get lost" or the likes, saying simply what they mean.

In senzai, this is most likely the case.

[Solemn]

Since sex is not that common and not considered as a "lowly" activity in Loroi culture, I'd be surprised if it was abused in the swear-word lexicon.

I wouldn't be too sure about that, actually.

Sanctioned sex between a worthy Loroi female and a Loroi male is not a "lowly" activity in Loroi culture, but that's far from the only sexual practice that can theoretically occur there.

Sex with Loroi males is honorable, but it is the only sexual practice that their cultures would exalt in that particular way and to that particular extent. Sex outside of the honored traditions is probably looked down upon; I would think pornography and masturbation would, in addition to being antithetical to their honorable tradition, be considered decadent self-indulgence in a fairly unselfish and spartan society. So a phrase with the meaning of "go fuck yourself" would if anything carry additional oomph, as it would carry a context of "you can go violate social propriety and indulge yourself in a decadent manner you decadent, honorless, non-breeding civilian." Since, after all, a warrior has earned their mating rites at least once, but a civilian...

Also, I have heard that several human cultures use copulation with animals as harsh insults, along the lines of "go take a horse's dick," "screw a pig," that sort of thing. English is somewhat limited on that front; our animal insults are generally fairly tame and nonsexual. I hope that as English-speaking societies become increasingly multicultural we expand and strengthen our language on that front, but only time will tell.

Sex with animals is considered a degrading, filthy, degenerate and hideous act in most human societies. I think that for the Loroi it would if anything be even moreso.

And a Loroi who tells another to commit sexual acts on an alien or animal would not just be telling her to engage in an unclean sexual act, the way it is among some humans. I think that amongst the Loroi, only the very lowest of the low, socially speaking, would have sought out interspecies "contact" of that variety, even though there are a host of sentient aliens amongst them. Only those Loroi who have completely given up on even the vaguest shred of hope of ever earning actual breeding rigths. "Go climb a Barsam" would carry a lot more weight for their females than a similar insult ever could for our females, because to the Loroi that is an activity that only the lowest of the low would ever think to engage in. Because it's not just a sexual insult, but a heavy status insult as well.

So I think after they formalize their relationship with humanity, "go screw a human" will slowly become one of the most popular insults in Loroi space.

Not least of all because of the human interest in the matter.