Anti-gravity

[Charlie]

I'm not sure if this has been answered before a search did not turn up much.

Do Humans use Anti-gravity on planet that have in-sufficient natural gravity?

Mars has only 38% of Earth's gravity.

Would this not affect in the long term anyone born on mars?

[Mr Bojangles]

I'm not sure if this has been answered before a search did not turn up much.

Do Humans use Anti-gravity on planet that have in-sufficient natural gravity?

Mars has only 38% of Earth's gravity.

Would this not affect in the long term anyone born on mars?

I think you mean "do humans use artificial gravity on planets that have less than Earth-normal gravity."

In any case, that's actually a very good question. The answer is that no one knows exactly what effects microgravity or lower-than-Earth normal gravity will have on fetal and/or child development. I know experiments have been conducted with mouse, frog, sea urchin, and fish embryos (see links below). The mice and sea urchins had some developmental issues, though the fish and frogs seemed to fine.

We do know the effects of lower gravity on adults, though, and they can be quite serious. And no one is sure what the "cut off" point is for a level of gravity that would prevent health problems. It stands to reason that if children could be successfully born in microgravity, on the Moon or on Mars that they couldn't stand Earth-normal gravity.

What we can say with certainty is that gravity affects every aspect of a living being, so much so that we take it for granted. Human fetuses and children develop and grow under 1g, so reducing gravity will produce an effect, the severity of which would likely depend on the reduction. If the humans of Outsider use artificial gravity on their ships, that they would also do so on a planet-side colony that had gravity below that "cut off" point I mentioned would be no surprise.

Links:
Mice
Frogs
Sea Urchins
Fish

[Arioch]

Artificial gravity should work within planetside structures. I don't think they would be necessary on Mars, but as Mr. Bo mentioned, we don't really know what long-term effects one-third gravity will have. But they might be useful on moon or asteroid bases.

[Mr Bojangles]

Speaking of artificial gravity, is it common tech for humans in Outsider? As in, you could actually find it in a planetary colony? Or is it one of those high-energy systems you would only find economical on a starship?

[Charlie]

My mistake, I meant Artificial gravity.

I do know that astronauts suffer bone atrophy when exposed to micro gravity, that's why they have to exercise so hard, among other things.

I was trying to determine if the Outsider humans had ''designed" colonists via genetics or used the gravity generators common to ships.

It does make an interesting point that this field needs allot more study.

[Arioch]

Microgravity is a lot different from one-third g. I think that humans can probably adapt to Mars gravity without too many problems. Raising children in low gravity might present more health problems, but again I think one-third g is probably within the realm of adaptability. I'm guessing it's when you get down around Moon gravity (0.17g) that people may have to actively combat bone loss and children may have growth/health problems. But eventually, people will adapt.

I expect that for humanity, artificial gravity would be an expensive, cutting-edge system with significant power requirements, and it would not have been available at the time the Mars colonies were first being established. So I don't see much use for it on Mars... I don't think working in 1/3 gravity all day and coming home to 1 g quarters is going to be restful... I expect the opposite.

[Charlie]

So we should expect Mars born to be taller, due to the lesser force of gravity, and perhaps weaker in terms of brute strength unless something is done to combat this.

In retrospect people born on mars and expected to remain there would not need any higher gravity, such as earth level, training and exorcise.

Unless a candidate for the TCA was found there is little reason to be trained for Earth standard gravity.

I would also expect Mars to Earth holidaymakers to find the experience, unsatisfactory.

[Mr Bojangles]

So we should expect Mars born to be taller, due to the lesser force of gravity, and perhaps weaker in terms of brute strength unless something is done to combat this.

In retrospect people born on mars and expected to remain there would not need any higher gravity, such as earth level, training and exorcise.

Unless a candidate for the TCA was found there is little reason to be trained for Earth standard gravity.

I would also expect Mars to Earth holidaymakers to find the experience, unsatisfactory.

Would increased height for natural-born Martians be a given, necessarily? Our height is largely determined by genetics and diet. I would expect that rather than being taller, natural-born Martians would have less dense bones and a weaker musculature, but probably not cripplingly so (I agree with Arioch that a third of a g is likely high enough to prevent any serious health concerns). Medical tech in Outsider is likely advanced enough to mitigate any health concerns, as well.

Microgravity is a lot different from one-third g. I think that humans can probably adapt to Mars gravity without too many problems. Raising children in low gravity might present more health problems, but again I think one-third g is probably within the realm of adaptability. I'm guessing it's when you get down around Moon gravity (0.17g) that people may have to actively combat bone loss and children may have growth/health problems. But eventually, people will adapt.

I think that a lot more research will have to be done before we start having children in much lower gravity regimes. Even though Mars gravity might be enough for proper fetal/child development, it would be awhile before a Martian colony started producing its own population. There are just too many "what ifs?" Based on the Insider, though, Mars was colonized in 2050, so there was definitely plenty of time to conduct such research.

I expect that for humanity, artificial gravity would be an expensive, cutting-edge system with significant power requirements, and it would not have been available at the time the Mars colonies were first being established. So I don't see much use for it on Mars... I don't think working in 1/3 gravity all day and coming home to 1 g quarters is going to be restful... I expect the opposite.

How did humans in Outsider develop artificial gravity? Is it part and parcel of jump drive technology?

[Yiuel]

The idea of growth on the Moon was explored in the anime Planetes, where a Luna-born girl is huge. If growth is indeed lowered by gravity (which seems reasonable enough), it stands to reason that there will be a taller growth on Mars and the Moon.

Note that a big problem on Mars and the Moon is not the lack of gravity itself, but the lack of friction forces. When you walk on Earth, the very contact with the ground gives you some friction with which to propulse yourself. That force is one-third on Mars, and one-sixth on the Moon. I once tried to walk with something close to the friction levels on the Moon (by reducing the force I pushed on my shoes with my mass). I could not walk. Interestingly, that would make being very massive a distinct advantage on lower-gravity planets : since you put more weight onto your feet, you get a better grasp on the ground. Behold the 300kg massive Yiuel. Best way to keep Terran-level shape then? Weighted dresses!

[Mr Bojangles]

The idea of growth on the Moon was explored in the anime Planetes, where a Luna-born girl is huge. If growth is indeed lowered by gravity (which seems reasonable enough), it stands to reason that there will be a taller growth on Mars and the Moon.

Note that a big problem on Mars and the Moon is not the lack of gravity itself, but the lack of friction forces. When you walk on Earth, the very contact with the ground gives you some friction with which to propulse yourself. That force is one-third on Mars, and one-sixth on the Moon. I once tried to walk with something close to the friction levels on the Moon (by reducing the force I pushed on my shoes with my mass). I could not walk. Interestingly, that would make being very massive a distinct advantage on lower-gravity planets : since you put more weight onto your feet, you get a better grasp on the ground. Behold the 300kg massive Yiuel. Best way to keep Terran-level shape then? Weighted dresses!

Never watched Planetes, but I may have to.

The lack of friction forces is a direct result of the lack of gravity, though. It's part of the reason why the Apollo astronauts hopped, rather than walked. Increasing one's mass would be one way to increase friction (that's the only reason I can think why a Luna-born girl would be huge). Weighted clothing in Lunar gravity isn't a bad idea.

[Arioch]

I'd definitely recommend Planetes; that's what immediately came to mind when this subject was brought up. I'd point out though that Nono wasn't exactly "huge"; she was 12 but roughly the same size as the adult main character Hachi (if memory serves). What was especially memorable about her was that she spent a lot of time in the hospital being tested, and it was implied that she did have health problems, and could probably never go to Earth.

It's an SF staple that low-gravity natives are taller than normal, and it makes logical sense, but we'll probably never know for sure until we get there, as there's no real way to simulate it here on Earth. We have access to normal gravity on the ground and microgravity in orbit, but nothing in between.

I think that a lot more research will have to be done before we start having children in much lower gravity regimes. Even though Mars gravity might be enough for proper fetal/child development, it would be awhile before a Martian colony started producing its own population. There are just too many "what ifs?"

Well, I'm not sure how we can research it without actually doing it. Plus, if we have a moonbase or Mars base with a coed crew of any substantial size, it's something that's just going to happen, whether it's "permitted" or not. And it's not like you can just bop home from Mars on short notice just because you got knocked up.

How did humans in Outsider develop artificial gravity? Is it part and parcel of jump drive technology?

Yes, artificial gravity and intertial dampers are the two key technologies you need to make jump drive work.

[Mr Bojangles]

I'm always on the look out for new anime, so I think I'll give Planetes a try.

As for research, I meant with non-human animals. Some research has already been done (see my first post above). Sex is definitely unavoidable, but birth control and other contraceptives are fairly inexpensive. If someone did get knocked up, well, first time for everything, right?

[Victor_D]

The effects of lower gravity on human body are one of these endlessly debated topics where you simply cannot reach a definite conclusion without *getting there and trying it for real*.

I guess we could test it in orbital stations with simulated 1/3 gravity, but building such stations would not be much simpler or cheaper than, well, building the Moon/Mars bases themselves

[Imbrooge]

Effects of low gravity? The biggest problems colonizing the Moon and Mars would not be effects of health but the dust. As I understand the lunar soil was a logistical nightmare for the Apollo crew, and that stuff is what you have to settle on when colonizing the moon. For Mars well those constant dust storms...

[Victor_D]

Effects of low gravity? The biggest problems colonizing the Moon and Mars would not be effects of health but the dust. As I understand the lunar soil was a logistical nightmare for the Apollo crew, and that stuff is what you have to settle on when colonizing the moon. For Mars well those constant dust storms...

They're not constant, and they're not a show stopper if you prepare adequately. (After all, winter was an obstacle in the early human colonization of Earth as well ).

The problem with gravity in real world is that there is not much you can do about it. 'Anti-gravity' is of course a staple in sci-fi settings, but in reality it is either impossible, or terrible difficult to manipulate gravity. That's why it is usually 'explained' by magic, like in Mass Effect for example.

Harder sci-fi settings at least treat 'gravity-control' with some respect - it is energy-intensive, dangerous, expensive, cannot be used on smaller ships, etc. I like the Outsider way of explaining it (=no explanation ) and treating it (I understand it is a "side effect" of the gravitic propulsion, ergo it can't be used on small vessels).

[Charlie]

When I posted the topic I did mean a form of gravity control, not specifically Anti-Gravity. A mere typo on my part.

Are the artificial gravity generators able to be used as a weapon? Super dense Kinetic bombardment, or would it be more practical to use the weapons available in the current time frame?

[Mr Bojangles]

Yes, artificial gravity and intertial dampers are the two key technologies you need to make jump drive work.

Ah, I had been wondering what sort of forces had to be manipulated in order to punch a hole into hyperspace in the Outsider-verse.

Harder sci-fi settings at least treat 'gravity-control' with some respect - it is energy-intensive, dangerous, expensive, cannot be used on smaller ships, etc. I like the Outsider way of explaining it (=no explanation ) and treating it (I understand it is a "side effect" of the gravitic propulsion, ergo it can't be used on small vessels).

I definitely agree with that assessment, Victor. It's in the same vein as tech in Babylon 5 or the reimagined BSG: they have advanced tech, but it's not something they think about, just use. Much the same way we use smartphones, cars, etc.

Are the artificial gravity generators able to be used as a weapon? Super dense Kinetic bombardment, or would it be more practical to use the weapons available in the current time frame?

Given the agility of the ship's themselves and the typical engagement ranges involved, being able to fire bigger, faster slug wouldn't be too useful. Against stationary or less mobile targets, an EM railgun still packs plenty of nastiness.

[Absalom]

Effects of low gravity? The biggest problems colonizing the Moon and Mars would not be effects of health but the dust. As I understand the lunar soil was a logistical nightmare for the Apollo crew, and that stuff is what you have to settle on when colonizing the moon. For Mars well those constant dust storms...

The big Martian dust storms might be a problem, but the dust devils have actually been known to remove dust from rovers without (as far as I've heard) damaging them, so you might be able to reduce your preparations to "whatever we do for the moon, plus a snow shovel".

As for the dust control common to both the Moon and Mars, hopefully we can handle it with electrostatic fields, conductive pressure suit shells, and a ion engine/lifter engine system (crosses fingers & toes).

When I posted the topic I did mean a form of gravity control, not specifically Anti-Gravity. A mere typo on my part.

Are the artificial gravity generators able to be used as a weapon? Super dense Kinetic bombardment, or would it be more practical to use the weapons available in the current time frame?

Well, I think that depends on whether you can focus and/or deactivate them.

If they work like Star Trek: Enterprise's "gravity plating" presumably does (where you require a "push" and a "pull" plate to get the actual effect) then you'd have to be able to quickly deactivate (and possibly move) the emitters to get the desired result.

If they work as a single-point emitter (like a flashlight) then you'd need either a way to focus the graviton beam (I for one, have no useful idea of how this might be done), or (as mentioned above) a way to quickly deactivate the emitter.

One of the nice things is that if you can focus the output of a single-emitter system, then you can theoretically throw anything through it without having to worry about your switching speeds (though certainly, the higher the mass that you're throwing, the more force will be transmitted to your ship).

All that having been said, I believe that Arioch already said that even a gravitics-based mass driver wouldn't have the projectile velocity to be useful against Umiak or Loroi.

[Charlie]

When I posted the topic I did mean a form of gravity control, not specifically Anti-Gravity. A mere typo on my part.

Are the artificial gravity generators able to be used as a weapon? Super dense Kinetic bombardment, or would it be more practical to use the weapons available in the current time frame?

Well, I think that depends on whether you can focus and/or deactivate them.

If they work like Star Trek: Enterprise's "gravity plating" presumably does (where you require a "push" and a "pull" plate to get the actual effect) then you'd have to be able to quickly deactivate (and possibly move) the emitters to get the desired result.

If they work as a single-point emitter (like a flashlight) then you'd need either a way to focus the graviton beam (I for one, have no useful idea of how this might be done), or (as mentioned above) a way to quickly deactivate the emitter.

One of the nice things is that if you can focus the output of a single-emitter system, then you can theoretically throw anything through it without having to worry about your switching speeds (though certainly, the higher the mass that you're throwing, the more force will be transmitted to your ship).

All that having been said, I believe that Arioch already said that even a gravitics-based mass driver wouldn't have the projectile velocity to be useful against Umiak or Loroi.[/quote]

I have always thought it was more like a field type like in Mass Effect instead of tractor beam technology akin to Star Wars.

If we attach a drive onto a large enough rock of sufficient mass and structural integrity and get the rock moving at the best possible speeds Terran tech can accomplish then before it get near to the planet we crank the gravity drive to maximum settings, we would have a far heaver rock moving at high speeds aimed at an offending colony.

It has been made clear the Terran weapons tech is severely lacking, but Kinetic strikes used in conjunction with stealth may give us a temporary advantage.

At least until they can detect the ships or find our planets/colonies, we would need significant development in terms of ship and ship weapons along with the number of ships been built.

I simply wanted to know if we could use the gravity generators in such a fashion, I don`t think it would be overall very effective as a tactic.

My interest is only as far as it was once considered as a route around the Outer Space Treaty were we cannot place nukes in orbit to strike at the earth.

[Random Person]

There is no stealth in space. The only thing you can do is not be in the spot they are looking. The field of view gets narrower the farther out you are, but at any combat range, it is still damn wide.