The "Real Aerospace" Thread

[Nemo]

I presume by "stainless steel vacuum chamber" they mean a thermal vacuum chamber, which are purpose built for recreating space conditions. NASA has plenty ofem, from largest on down the line. I completely skipped the atmospheric pressure bit when I skimmed it because I saw the chamber I assumed they turned it on. At the very least test at both vacuum and atmospheric conditions and note differences from expectations. But intentionally leaving confounding variables in place by not testing under the available conditions?

[Nemo]

If the experimental control delivers similar results to the experimental results my reaction isn't success. I start looking for a failure in my measuring stick.

This is wrong. Or, at the least, inaccurate. Kinda shocked no one picked up on this, considering how astute this group is.

The device is designed to impart thrust onto gas within its operating chamber. By leaving atmospheric gases present they could establish that, in all tests, thrust was correctly being produced when gas was present in either device, and also that anomalous thrust was being generated by the chamber designed to interact with quantum particles.

I maintain that they should have also turned on the vacuum chamber, but my initial objection here was off base. Its possible they skipped vacuum testing due to time constraints on shared equipment. They did keep fiddling with settings, that would have made the series much more time consuming if they had to return to vacuum after each set.

[Zakharra]

With all of the sci-fi writers and artists out there, how many of their designs, do you think are viable ones? I have seen the designs Arioch has posted here on this site, the pictures and Deviant Arts, as well as the designs by some other artists, including one of my favorite sci-fi comic artists/authors, Steve Gallacci who wrote and made the Albedo/Command Review comic. It's a furry one for those who don't like that sort of thing, but the science in it is a hard realistic science and the furry aspect is easy to ignore for the story. From what I've seen, the technology there is fairly realistic and the vehicles and ships look like they would work. Like Arioch and others designs, I'm just wondering do you think those designs would actually work?

[icekatze]

hi hi

I'm not sure if it is entirely fair to judge how many designs would really work in the context of our own reality. Some science fiction designs are very well suited to the pseudo-science of the setting, even if they wouldn't work in real life.

I think a designer's first goal is to make the design fit within the setting, and it is the writer's goal to make the setting consistent in the sense that it can mesh with reality. I think one of the biggest overlooked areas in fictional space ship design is the lack of waste heat disposal, but then again, it is usually completely overlooked by the setting as well.

If we had fusion torch drives and artificial gravity technology, who knows what space ships would really look like?

[Mr.Tucker]

Hmmm..... NASA did some pretty realistic designs for some of their theoretical craft. They were not interstellar ships though.

The Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Ic ... ecraft.png

Outer Planets vehicle: http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m275 ... ANSFER.png
And many, many more....

The most "realistic" interstellar vehicle I've ever come across is Charles Pellegrino and Jim Powell's Valkirie. Still speculative, but nicely thought out and worth a look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Valkyrie

[RedDwarfIV]

Oddly, for a series so based in the Space Is An Ocean trope, spacecraft from the Honor Harrington series would work pretty well in space. At least, until they overheated from lack of radiators.


(it's called that because for two years the main character was thought dead, hence why she got a ship class named after her. The Graysons didn't feel like changing it back to Medusa.)

But yeah. It's not aerodynamic. It doesn't have wings. It doesn't have huge masses connected by thin pylons. It's just a spindle with hammerheads on each end for chase weapons. Mostly it's the terminology that makes it seem like a sci-fi version of an age of sail story (which it actually is.) Such as the main weapons being mounted in 'broadsides' because the 'impeller gravity bands' of the engines prevent anything coming in or out from 'above' and 'below'.

[GeoModder]

At least, until they overheated from lack of radiators.

Just fire up the 'fridge lasers/grasers.

[RedDwarfIV]

At least, until they overheated from lack of radiators.

Just fire up the 'fridge lasers/grasers.

'Cept that doesn't work either because fridges keep themselves cold by moving the heat outside. It's why leaving a fridge's door open doesn't make a room cold.

So whatever ship is carrying the fridge laser/graser is going to overheat even faster.

[Nemo]

Think youre misunderstanding. There are infact lasers that refrigerate molecules and create BECs. Thats not what he was after. He was talking about using a heat powered laser to transfer that energy into space. Basically the same thing as a passive radiator, but LAZORS so better. Pure scifi, as so far as I am aware there is no way to passively create such a laser to pump that energy, but it gets used quite a bit.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Those pesky laws of thermodynamics, never letting anyone have any fun, or perpetual motion machines. Jerks.

[GeoModder]

At least, until they overheated from lack of radiators.

Just fire up the 'fridge lasers/grasers.

'Cept that doesn't work either because fridges keep themselves cold by moving the heat outside. It's why leaving a fridge's door open doesn't make a room cold.

So whatever ship is carrying the fridge laser/graser is going to overheat even faster.

Someone doesn't seem to know his tropes here.
I recommend reading David Brin's Sundiver.

[RedDwarfIV]

I think I get how it's supposed to work, but you're still going to generate waste heat.


... actually, this makes me wonder where the radiators are on TCA ships in Outsider. Loroi ships are mentioned as having radiators mounted in the engine pylons, but I haven't seen anything suggesting something similar on Human-built designs.

[Nemo]

Since theyre using reaction drives its possible to pump the heat into the fuel and dump it out the exhaust plume. In theory.

[Arioch]

Terran warships don't have defensive screens, so they have to avoid vulnerable protrusions that can be shot off. During combat, heat is accumulated in heat sinks, and after combat they extend retractable radiators to get rid of it.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I imagine that if you have fusion technology, you could that plasma containment technology to make extremely high temperature radiators, which would require a whole lot less surface area.

[Karst45]

If the experimental control delivers similar results to the experimental results my reaction isn't success. I start looking for a failure in my measuring stick.

actually the Nasa test was (from what i hear) more of a confirmation of the Japan and English test. so if all get similar "measurement error" can we assume it not an error?

With all of the sci-fi writers and artists out there, how many of their designs, do you think are viable ones? I have seen the designs Arioch has posted here on this site, the pictures and Deviant Arts, as well as the designs by some other artists, including one of my favorite sci-fi comic artists/authors, Steve Gallacci who wrote and made the Albedo/Command Review comic. It's a furry one for those who don't like that sort of thing, but the science in it is a hard realistic science and the furry aspect is easy to ignore for the story. From what I've seen, the technology there is fairly realistic and the vehicles and ships look like they would work. Like Arioch and others designs, I'm just wondering do you think those designs would actually work?

Well most people who work in this field probably are doing so because they were inspired but Science-fiction. And since Science-fiction is what drove their imagination, it safe to assume that they will try to mimic some of those design. Much like the Space-suite was inspired by some old scifi show of the time (sorry trying to find source but i only get those Z-2 Tron inspired suite for the suicide mars mission)

[Karst45]

I think I get how it's supposed to work, but you're still going to generate waste heat.


... actually, this makes me wonder where the radiators are on TCA ships in Outsider. Loroi ships are mentioned as having radiators mounted in the engine pylons, but I haven't seen anything suggesting something similar on Human-built designs.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider002.html

Could those 3 thing be also used as radiator?

[RedDwarfIV]

I think I get how it's supposed to work, but you're still going to generate waste heat.


... actually, this makes me wonder where the radiators are on TCA ships in Outsider. Loroi ships are mentioned as having radiators mounted in the engine pylons, but I haven't seen anything suggesting something similar on Human-built designs.

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider002.html

Could those 3 thing be also used as radiator?

I doubt it. The bottom one is painted white - good for reflecting heat, bad for losing it. The top two have barely any surface area. Far as I can tell, they're just pylons for the navigation lights.

[Cy83r]

hi hi

Just because it looks like the spacecraft is travelling faster than light to someone on Earth, does not mean it is.

This is totally false. Its all relative. The speed of light is invariant in all reference frames, and things don't move faster than it in any reference frame, not just the reference frame of the traveler.

The reference frame of the traveler is not a privileged reference frame.

I'm not even talking about infinite mass, I'm talking about causality. Infinite mass is only one of many issues with FTL travel, and relativity absolutely enters into it. If it looks like it is going faster than the speed of light in any reference frame, then you can break causality.

Oh, please, breaking the speed of light is not breaking the speed of time. Arguably once you start exceeding the stasis of lightspeed it's more likely that the traveler's perception of time speeds up again, which implies a whole new barrier on speed- how long your crew are expected to live at FTL from the outside perception.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Actually, yes. The speed of light is intrinsically linked to the passage of time. This is not an optical illusion, or a trick of perception. The ability to travel faster than the speed of light will allow travelers to break causality.

The science of why this is the case is very strongly supported by relativity, which is in turn very strongly supported by observation.

Faster than light travel or communication, special relativity, and causality cannot coexist.