Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

[Absalom]

I think cleanup of space junk is going to be a necessity. I recall someone saying that having services like those in PLANETES where they go out and grab each piece individually would not be feasible, but I don't really see an alternative. Maybe you could have robots that go around and knock things out of orbit, but I can imagine that creating as much new debris as it removes.

1) Lasers have been suggested, which for some stuff (high surface area to mass ratio, in an orbit too high to be grabbed by the atmosphere already) I would assume will happen to some level.

2) A possibility that I once read in some sci-fi book was to have a very thin sheet of gold that you just ran into things. At orbital speed differentials the gold that was physically hit would turn into plasma, thereby exerting a small rocket-effect in opposition to the vector of the impacting object. Fortunately, this should be doable with materials other than gold, as it's basically a variant of the Whipple shield.

3) Then there's "space drones" equipped with "proper" Whipple shields designed to stop the object the first time, rather than just slow it down a little. This is useful for a smaller variety of objects than possibility 2, but also does more of the job at once.

4) Finally, there's the space-tug method. Just match the orbit, grab on, and move it somewhere (presumably one of the disposal orbits, unless you're really close to LEO already).

Of those four, 2 - 4 require propulsion and maneuvering, but hopefully that could be accomplished with a combination of flywheels (for quick rotations) and several magnetic tethers (several so that you can switch them on and off to control and compensate for rotation, I'd say that 3 is a safe "absolute minimum, but really, add a few more" value; magnetic because I'd be dubious about using an electric tether beyond LEO).

Indeed, both "laser brooms" and particle beam projectors have been proposed to clear orbital space of debris. I'm inclined to believe particle beams would be more efficient at this, since they can impart more momentum into a target (particles having mass, unlike photons). They would sweep orbital space and nudge the debris into a decaying orbit, over several passes if need be (interestingly, while doing my little foray into Magbeams, I found that this was another potential application).

I was thinking lasers since you can have just a few installations (one, two, three) with huge mirrors and/or lenses to cover roughly the entire Earth-Moon system. I'm not certain that we could reliably aim a particle beam at those ranges.

However, arranging a rendezvous between a piece of debris and a collecting drone seems both time consuming and inefficient, unless said debris was of considerable size.

Yes, well, I figure that a bolt would probably get hit by a laser, as would e.g. paint chips. I haven't looked up any surveys of the debris, but for the physical methods I was thinking "high-mass high-vaporization-temperature bolt in high orbit" to "large satellite".

Sending a drone to crash into orbiting particles may work, but would also take considerable time (new debris is produced each day), and it's hard to imagine sending a 50kg satellite simply to collect a debris the size of a bolt.

Bear in mind that I have NEVER looked for the generation rates of debris, I was just figuring that anything you would deal with via physical technique would be appropriately high-mass, or otherwise difficult to deal with. I was thinking that as you move into the higher numbered options, you would also be moving to ever larger objects. 4 would presumably be the choice used for full-size satellites. 2 would presumably always be used for something that was small enough to be vaporized after one or two hits but too large to get in a reasonable time with lasers (extra points if the sheet is moving against the rotation of the Earth). Choosing between 2 & 3 would be a bit of an issue, but I assume that there might be something that 3 would be the best choice for.

Magnetic tethers require good timing (and trying not to get hit by other things while maneuvering the large structure to collect the primary target), and debris generally have erratic orbits, so it would be, again, difficult and time consuming (they are still marvelous for orbital maneuvering of ships ).

I suggested magnetic tethers so that the most likely sources of future small debris could be dealt with over time. Ion engines would also be an option, but I think that for this use-case a powered tether system is best, since you never have to refuel . A fairly large MHD or "Lifter" drive might be of interest for LEO maneuvering, too, as would an electric tether system (which, of course, could be integrated into the magnetic tethers). Lots of interesting ideas with this subject .

[Suederwind]

Most are uninhabited. A few have research or resource extraction outposts. Most have some basic unmanned infrastructure: system buoys, navigational beacons, data collection stations.

So no TCA installations? How often are most of these systems visited by TCA or other human ships?

Larger Loroi vessels (like Tempest) have an arboretum in which they grow some plants for consumption; mainly Perrein Shadowlands fungoids. Some Terran vessels might have similar facilities, but I imagine Bellarmine was probably too small.

Can I imagine those arboretums aboard a Loroi ship more like a greenhouse or a farm of some sort? I have a hard time imagine that they really carry some Perrein trees aboard Tempest or other vessels to grew some mushrooms. And sorry for the OT in this thread.

Sure, the larger nations and collectives would own and operate a number of FTL ships, including some armed vessels. These would need to comply with the TCA treaty limitations.

So what kind of limitations are we speaking of? Limited numbers of ships per nation?

[Arioch]

So no TCA installations? How often are most of these systems visited by TCA or other human ships?

If there isn't a colony or outpost or some kind of transit depot in the system, there isn't much need for a manned installation. Systems are visited periodically by patrol vessels to collect data from any navigational buoys (which record system transits) or other recording stations present in the system, but in remote systems it may be years between visits.

Can I imagine those arboretums aboard a Loroi ship more like a greenhouse or a farm of some sort? I have a hard time imagine that they really carry some Perrein trees aboard Tempest or other vessels to grew some mushrooms.

Even farm plants can be recreational when they're the only respite from the somewhat sterile, cold, dry environment of a Loroi starship. And in particular, the bioluminescent Perrein fungoids are quite exotic, and the dark, damp environment can be comforting to nostalgic Perrein natives.

So what kind of limitations are we speaking of? Limited numbers of ships per nation?

Regarding armed vessels, there would be limits to number, tonnage and types of weaponry. The only limits of unarmed starships would be that they be properly registered and operated and maintained within the safety rules established.

[discord]

never really understood the need to heavily regulate weapons on space ships...since pretty much however you twist and turn or how heavily you arm the ship, the most dangerous thing on the ship is the SHIP, so removing weapons do not really deter someone going 'loco' since the most dangerous weapon is still there....

the biggest problem is of course someone going postal, at that point the person is not rational and might decide that ramming is a good idea, someone NOT irrational is unlikely to commit a act of aggression to begin with so carrying weapons is not a problem...this leads to the interesting paradox that allowing civilian ships to carry weapons actually make them LESS dangerous in the hands of someone going postal.

[junk]

Does humanity have mobile ground based weapons that can shot accurately into space ? They would have to be very mobile in order not to become sitting ducks

A space born attacker can technically attack you from the other side of the system if he so desires and you have no way to stop him from the ground.

Plus if you want defensive structures, why not build them in orbit anyway.

Which reminds me - I wanted to ask, did the humans try or attempt any uplift projects?
On canines, marine mammals like dolphins, apes or cephalopods.

And in the case they did, and were at least rudimentary successfull, how would other species react to such a project. The barsam might be for instance taken back by uplifted dolphins considering them to have ties to the pol?

[Murica]

A space born attacker can technically attack you from the other side of the system if he so desires and you have no way to stop him from the ground.

Plus if you want defensive structures, why not build them in orbit anyway.

Which reminds me - I wanted to ask, did the humans try or attempt any uplift projects?
On canines, marine mammals like dolphins, apes or cephalopods.

And in the case they did, and were at least rudimentary successfull, how would other species react to such a project. The barsam might be for instance taken back by uplifted dolphins considering them to have ties to the pol?

Well that why I said they would need to be extremely mobile and know that I thing about it it would also be extremely useful if it was camouflaged ( at least to ships just entering range) that plus I was thinking that they might be cheaper
Also I remember hearing earlier about none FTL ships called monitor does humanity operate these in large number? I would guess most of these things would be for patrols, transportation and repairs?

[Arioch]

never really understood the need to heavily regulate weapons on space ships...since pretty much however you twist and turn or how heavily you arm the ship, the most dangerous thing on the ship is the SHIP, so removing weapons do not really deter someone going 'loco' since the most dangerous weapon is still there....

the biggest problem is of course someone going postal, at that point the person is not rational and might decide that ramming is a good idea, someone NOT irrational is unlikely to commit a act of aggression to begin with so carrying weapons is not a problem...this leads to the interesting paradox that allowing civilian ships to carry weapons actually make them LESS dangerous in the hands of someone going postal.

It's certainly true that all spacecraft will have to be carefully regulated, as the spacecraft itself can be a dangerous weapon, but it's mainly a threat to stations or ground targets. An unarmed spacecraft isn't much of a threat to other spacecraft; it's really hard to ram another spacecraft that's trying to avoid you. Pretty much the only way that one spacecraft can successfully ram another is if it is caught completely by surprise, and the target being armed won't help at all in that situation; by the time the target realizes it's under attack, it's likely too late.

More generally, I don't agree at all that arming people makes them less likely to commit violence. In my experience, violence is most often committed in situations in which people are not thinking clearly about the consequences.

Which reminds me - I wanted to ask, did the humans try or attempt any uplift projects? On canines, marine mammals like dolphins, apes or cephalopods.

I think human technology is just at the cusp of where they could attempt such things, but I think it would take substantial effort and capital, and I can't imagine why any human government or organization during this time period would think it was a worthwhile investment. I think there would also be many people and groups who would have serious ethical objections to tampering with the genes of higher animals. Genetic engineering of humans is illegal in most human nations.

Also I remember hearing earlier about none FTL ships called monitor does humanity operate these in large number? I would guess most of these things would be for patrols, transportation and repairs?

There might be some armed police or military vessels without FTL drives in the Sol system that would technically qualify as monitors, but the humans really haven't been investing a lot in military spacecraft. They were living in a peaceful time, and have not had any space wars.

[Absalom]

More generally, I don't agree at all that arming people makes them less likely to commit violence. In my experience, violence is most often committed in situations in which people are not thinking clearly about the consequences.

And this would be part of why the TCA's Fleet branch was originally formed, right ?

Which reminds me - I wanted to ask, did the humans try or attempt any uplift projects? On canines, marine mammals like dolphins, apes or cephalopods.

I think human technology is just at the cusp of where they could attempt such things, but I think it would take substantial effort and capital, and I can't imagine why any human government or organization during this time period would think it was a worthwhile investment. I think there would also be many people and groups who would have serious ethical objections to tampering with the genes of higher animals. Genetic engineering of humans is illegal in most human nations.

What about some of the corvidae, particularly the ones that can already talk? I can imagine those being popular with anyone who likes to creep other people out...

Edit: Gah, typo...

[saint of m]

Will the use of hemp (the fibers that the Declaration of independence is made of) be more wide spread? My logic is this:

We can turn into building material, we can use it for paper, and we can make clothing out of it, and short of the Antarctica (at least as far as I am aware of, scientists can only study penguins and climate change for so long), It just seems like a perfect choice for a cash crop on an world fit for colonization.

[Absalom]

I would expect that hemp wouldn't be used as an export crop, but instead a local-use crop. After all, you can grow it on Earth just as easily as anywhere else, and I assume that a modified combine would work perfectly well to harvest it.

As for whether the colonies grow it at all, I suspect that to depend on whether marijuana is locally legal. Using it as a building material strikes me as a bit much of a reach, but certainly I've heard reference that it's more practical for paper than wood, and a better crop in agricultural terms than cotton.

[halftea]

Just to clarify, hemp plants and marijuana plants while related, are different varieties of the Cannabis plant. While I have read that the relationship is like that of a chihuahua and a wolf, in that those are both in the Canis family. I think that the difference is that hemp and marijuana can actually cross-fertilize, with the hemp actually genetically dominant. I don't think the chihuahua/wolf cross-breed would be as successful, or even viable. But I'm not enough of a geneticist/biologist to know that particular outcome.

[Arioch]

The climates of all of the colony worlds are very harsh; I doubt any of them would be doing large-scale agriculture at this point.

[discord]

bamboo all the way, you can use that stuff for EVERYTHING, boats, airplanes, buildings...i think it'd be difficult to make a combustion engine out of it, but the rest in a car is doable and also makes wonderful underwear and clothing in general, food, great for scaffolding, musical instruments....you can even make beer out of it and according to those in the know pretty good beer and finally you can make weapons out of it and even gunpowder weapons....and it grows like crazy.

[saint of m]

bamboo all the way, you can use that stuff for EVERYTHING, boats, airplanes, buildings...i think it'd be difficult to make a combustion engine out of it, but the rest in a car is doable and also makes wonderful underwear and clothing in general, food, great for scaffolding, musical instruments....you can even make beer out of it and according to those in the know pretty good beer and finally you can make weapons out of it and even gunpowder weapons....and it grows like crazy.

Mythbusters made a working cannon out of a log and another working cannon out of nothing but duct tap. I think where there is a will there is a way!

Also, Arioch, how harsh are we talking about? Sahara Desert? Antartica? Berkeley come Election season?

[GeoModder]

Also, Arioch, how harsh are we talking about? Sahara Desert? Antartica? Berkeley come Election season?

Esperanza might have Sahara-like moistness, Aldea probably has what Illinois just went through, Proxima must be even worse then Antarctica regarding temperatures, and Alpha doesn't bear thinking about for habitability.

[Arioch]

Also, Arioch, how harsh are we talking about? Sahara Desert? Antartica? Berkeley come Election season?

Esperanza might have Sahara-like moistness, Aldea probably has what Illinois just went through, Proxima must be even worse then Antarctica regarding temperatures, and Alpha doesn't bear thinking about for habitability.

The above is essentially correct; to elaborate: Mars and Alpha have atmospheres so thin that water would boil on the surface (if it wasn't already frozen). Aldea is temperate and wet, but stormy, and has native organisms that compete with any introduced crops.

[GeoModder]

The colonists from niche worlds like Proxima and Esperanza, do they mostly originate from people like the Inuit and Siberians/berbers and bedouin respectively?

[Arioch]

The colonists from niche worlds like Proxima and Esperanza, do they mostly originate from people like the Inuit and Siberians/berbers and bedouin respectively?

I doubt it. Colonial living is indoor living; Aldea is the only colonial world with an even marginally breathable atmosphere, and even that has limits. It's not as if colonists can just head off into the wilderness of an alien world and construct a log cabin.

[saint of m]

The colonists from niche worlds like Proxima and Esperanza, do they mostly originate from people like the Inuit and Siberians/berbers and bedouin respectively?

I doubt it. Colonial living is indoor living; Aldea is the only colonial world with an even marginally breathable atmosphere, and even that has limits. It's not as if colonists can just head off into the wilderness of an alien world and construct a log cabin.

Would that be the air mixture of oxygen, carbon and nitrogen or would it be microbes like bacteria, spores, and viruses messing with people?

[GeoModder]

Ah, Proxima and Esperanza don't have breathable atmospheres? That's new to me. Thought they were colonized because supporting one.
I suppose Proxima would have a mostly carbon dioxide atmosphere then? To help keep the atmosphere gaseous?
What's the oddity with Aldea's atmosphere? Nitrogen narcosis?