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Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread 
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
I've been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-reading the comic, as one does, and a couple of things occurred to me:

1. The beam that destroys Bellarmine *is* the same color as the plasma focus the Umiak are shown to use.
2. Even though the first shot crippled the ship, it took FOUR shots to mangle Bellarmine, but it was still largely recognizable and left Alex almost completely intact. Given the technological and military might of both the Loroi and the Umiak, if either one of them had done the attack, I'd have expected the first or second shot to have reduced the ship to undifferentiated slag or cinders. Alex assuredly so.

At this point maybe I should stop reading the comic again. If you scrutinize anything too much you start finding things. But it's just so GOOD.

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Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:39 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
The plasma focus, pulse cannons and particle blasters are meant to pierce the target's hull and do internal damage. Consider them akin to bullets.

Antimatter torpedoes on the other hand are designed to annihilate everything in their area of effect. Consider those akin to artillery shells.

Bellarmine is an ordinary car that was riddled with machine gun fire. The car is a total write off and its passengers are all dead but the car is still recognizable despite the damage. The car however wouldn't be there anymore if it was hit by artillery.

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Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:54 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
cacambo43 wrote:
I've been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-reading the comic, as one does, and a couple of things occurred to me:
1. The beam that destroys Bellarmine *is* the same color as the plasma focus the Umiak are shown to use.
CJSF

This topic was discussed in the comics at pages 60 and 63.
Maybe, you should reread the comics once more. :D


Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:21 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
SVlad wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:
I've been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-reading the comic, as one does, and a couple of things occurred to me:
1. The beam that destroys Bellarmine *is* the same color as the plasma focus the Umiak are shown to use.
CJSF

This topic was discussed in the comics at pages 60 and 63.
Maybe, you should reread the comics once more. :D


Those are the pages I referred to. Either you missed my point or I made it poorly. Probably made it poorly.

Kikitik-27's comments indicate the Umiak have not seen humans before and knew nothing of the attack. Sure, we have Stillstorm saying it's all lies, but I don't think that's the case.

CJSF


Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:04 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
There is the possibility of Kikitik-27's forces not know of it but considering the decentralized nature of the Hierarchy it is more than probable that Bellarmine run into something that an other command of the Hierarchy didn't want to become known.

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Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:10 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
dragoongfa wrote:
There is the possibility of Kikitik-27's forces not know of it but considering the decentralized nature of the Hierarchy it is more than probable that Bellarmine run into something that an other command of the Hierarchy didn't want to become known.


Entirely possible, but considering the almost suspicious way that Tempo said "Green?" towards the Historian, and the way it immediately dismissed Alex's evidence with "That is not very precise intelligence, excellency," it lends me to thinking that Historian plasma foci are also green.

And since we know that the Umiak plasma foci are far too advanced for them to likely have developed themselves, if they did get their foci from the Historians, the beams would likely be the same color.


Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:01 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:
There is the possibility of Kikitik-27's forces not know of it but considering the decentralized nature of the Hierarchy it is more than probable that Bellarmine run into something that an other command of the Hierarchy didn't want to become known.


Entirely possible, but considering the almost suspicious way that Tempo said "Green?" towards the Historian, and the way it immediately dismissed Alex's evidence with "That is not very precise intelligence, excellency," it lends me to thinking that Historian plasma foci are also green.

And since we know that the Umiak plasma foci are far too advanced for them to likely have developed themselves, if they did get their foci from the Historians, the beams would likely be the same color.


However, Insider says that Historians plasmathrower has a different focus mechanism. Plus, Loroi PPC also obtained from Historians (and directly, actually) and its color - blue.

You can certainly assume that Historians have sold / transferred technology plasma cannons to Umiak (with, at least, for 30 years of pre-war period), but it has drawn to a serious complication. Occam doesn't agree, in short.


Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:17 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:
There is the possibility of Kikitik-27's forces not know of it but considering the decentralized nature of the Hierarchy it is more than probable that Bellarmine run into something that an other command of the Hierarchy didn't want to become known.


Entirely possible, but considering the almost suspicious way that Tempo said "Green?" towards the Historian, and the way it immediately dismissed Alex's evidence with "That is not very precise intelligence, excellency," it lends me to thinking that Historian plasma foci are also green.

And since we know that the Umiak plasma foci are far too advanced for them to likely have developed themselves, if they did get their foci from the Historians, the beams would likely be the same color.


That could also be a dig to an unseen Historian accusation that the Loroi fired on yet an other species (which is how the war with the Hierarchy started), the Historian saying that it is not precise intelligence may be the construct's way of trying to save face.

Also the Historian Plasma weapons are a far more advanced variant of the Loroi Pulse Cannons which should translate to a blue color.

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Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:18 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Regarding Tempo's reaction and tilt to the Historian, I noticed that as well, but since the forum does not date that far back, I was unsure whether that has been discussed and resolved.


Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:34 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Tamri wrote:
However, Insider says that Historians plasmathrower has a different focus mechanism. Plus, Loroi PPC also obtained from Historians (and directly, actually) and its color - blue.


Sure, but if the Historians were trying to play Umiak and Loroi off of each other - which is a great move in their position - or if they previously supported the Hierarchy, but decided they'd rather not be gobbled up by the fanatic collectivist bugs and backed the Loroi - then they would probably not give both sides plasma technology that can be easily identified as the same stuff.

And since we know they're super-advanced, I wouldn't really put it past them to be able to throw together an example plasma focus with entirely different technological lineage, invented out of whole cloth, for the Loroi to study; assuming that they don't actually have more than one Focus technology in their libraries.

Quote:
You can certainly assume that Historians have sold / transferred technology plasma cannons to Umiak (with, at least, for 30 years of pre-war period), but it has drawn to a serious complication. Occam doesn't agree, in short.


The problem with Occam's Razor is that people who apply it are very often wrong, triply so when you get into the arenas of politics, espionage, and narrative fiction, all of which we are dealing here. The simplest explanation, quite simply, is not likely to be correct in any of those cases, and the Historian seems shady as hell to me.


dragoongfa wrote:
That could also be a dig to an unseen Historian accusation that the Loroi fired on yet an other species (which is how the war with the Hierarchy started), the Historian saying that it is not precise intelligence may be the construct's way of trying to save face.


It may be... But even if the Loroi shot first, it was pretty clearly a manufactured incident to give the bugs casus belli to launch a prepared invasion. If some Canadian boat did something stupid that got a US Coast Guard vessel to open fire and suddenly tens of thousands of angry Canucks were riding their Battle Moose into New York state, it would be transparently obvious that even if the U.S. shot first, there was a huge red, white, and maple syrupy shenanigan going on.

You don't have a prepared invasion force ready to go with their dancing shoes laced up on the off-chance the other guy decides they want to have a shooting war.

Quote:
Also the Historian Plasma weapons are a far more advanced variant of the Loroi Pulse Cannons which should translate to a blue color.


Perhaps, perhaps not. We don't know what elements go into a plasma foci's color, and that's disregarding the possibility that the Historians intentionally obfuscated the traces of their technology-sharing deals by giving the Hierarchy and Union different branches of plasma focus tech, which, frankly, I consider to be the likely possibility if they've been playing both sides.

Jethreuel wrote:
Regarding Tempo's reaction and tilt to the Historian, I noticed that as well, but since the forum does not date that far back, I was unsure whether that has been discussed and resolved.


Like I said, it seems like she suspects shenanigans. And when someone like Tempo suspects shenanigans, betting against shenanigans is a sucker's bet.


Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:47 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Where in Insider does it say that Historian Plasma weapons are blue? All I see is that they use a different focusing mechanism.


Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:11 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Jethreuel wrote:
Where in Insider does it say that Historian Plasma weapons are blue? All I see is that they use a different focusing mechanism.


Even if it are blue, IF they want to do some cloak and dagger stuff I guess they would tweak it to look different. Even if that mean reducing the damage output a bit.


Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:15 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Sure, but if the Historians were trying to play Umiak and Loroi off of each other - which is a great move in their position - or if they previously supported the Hierarchy, but decided they'd rather not be gobbled up by the fanatic collectivist bugs and backed the Loroi - then they would probably not give both sides plasma technology that can be easily identified as the same stuff.

And since we know they're super-advanced, I wouldn't really put it past them to be able to throw together an example plasma focus with entirely different technological lineage, invented out of whole cloth, for the Loroi to study; assuming that they don't actually have more than one Focus technology in their libraries.



According to Jim, in focus of the plasma used manipulation by certain forces in the plasma itself (electromagnetism? nuclear / quantum interaction? hell knows). That in itself means that "focus principle" - essentially a manipulation by other forces, or radically different mechanism application have known forces rather than banal replacement lenses on the sleeve. In fact - this is a completely different technology that requires an individual development and individual technical support, and not just a modification of cash materiel. If blasters Delrias / Morath you can still make a different modification of the same technology, the Umiak plasma and Historians variant - a completely different technology, simply due to the difference in the level of technology (blasters and plasma). Roughly speaking: Lorai and Historian plasmathrower - a gauss and railgun, Umiak - ordinary gun on chemical explosives. And then, and then - the kinetics but principle of the transfer energy to projectile is different. A blasters - bows. Or crossbows.

It could be anything. Or rather - what Jim writes, will be. The question is - why? Here no one is similar to the advanced scientists, who study and design something for the sake of the process itself. Well, maybe Pipolsid slightly different in a good way. And Historians generally look worse than the conservatives and stagnancy than themselves Lorai. And then they suddenly turns out to be as much as two 100% working and absolutely not similar to each other plasma weapons project, have in addition the potential to improve (well, the latter is controversial and subject to discussion, but let it be). As Stanislavski said - "Don't believe." If only all that Jim told us about the Historians to this - not a clever mask, what they act out for decades, but in this case they are actors and schemers beyond genius. So brilliant that managed not to puncture even when their quite live representatives were close range to Loroi, that according to the timeline, it took place in the past.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
The problem with Occam's Razor is that people who apply it are very often wrong, triply so when you get into the arenas of politics, espionage, and narrative fiction, all of which we are dealing here. The simplest explanation, quite simply, is not likely to be correct in any of those cases, and the Historian seems shady as hell to me.



Yes, that's just any work on it, too, it is desirable to occasionally glance, because otherwise appear in the story grand pianos, as a natural result. Especially if the author doesn't give under such cases iron explanation why it happened so and not otherwise.


Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:49 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Another possibility, it could be an Umiak Ally Courier, acting in similar capacity to the Barsam. Typically you would want your couriers close enough that they could see combat but far enough that they would not likely be targeted. This could be an Umiak Courier who was surprised when Humanity contacted them and shot first rather than ask questions.


Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:08 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
I guess Tempo's phrasing could lead one to this conclusion, but I'd like to point out that nowhere in Tempo's speech does she say that the Loroi fired first.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
We don't know what elements go into a plasma foci's color

Kyber crystals, of course. :D

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
...suddenly tens of thousands of angry Canucks were riding their Battle Moose into New York state...
.


Not to discount everything else you said, but I completely lost it here. :lol: I just can't get the image out of my head...

Arioch wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
We don't know what elements go into a plasma foci's color

Kyber crystals, of course. :D


Of course, it makes so much sense. It was the Sith that destroyed the Bell!


Fri Jul 15, 2016 12:52 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
I guess Tempo's phrasing could lead one to this conclusion, but I'd like to point out that nowhere in Tempo's speech does she say that the Loroi fired first.


Doesn't she say that she does not know who fired first? Or at least, that's what I got from Page 109; that everyone involved is dead, and the flight recorders are scrap metal/lost/vaporized, so it's impossible to know who fired first.

Either way, though, it seems pretty clear that the Umiak wanted the war, from how they subsequently rolled a giant invasion fleet. You don't put on goggles unless you're diving into the swimming pool, and you don't leave a giant invasion fleet lying around in wait just in case the other guys decide they want to have a shooting war. So if the Loroi fired first, I would suspect "manufactured incident" to provide the thinnest veneer of casus belli, and if the Loroi didn't shoot first, then it was just a straight-up case of the Hierarchy launching a surprise war of aggression.

Mr Bojangles wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
...suddenly tens of thousands of angry Canucks were riding their Battle Moose into New York state...
.


Not to discount everything else you said, but I completely lost it here. :lol: I just can't get the image out of my head...


You're welcome, I'll be here all week, don't forget to tip Beryl on your way out.

Mr Bojangles wrote:
Arioch wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
We don't know what elements go into a plasma foci's color

Kyber crystals, of course. :D


Of course, it makes so much sense. It was the Sith that destroyed the Bell!


So, if you used a Hurrikaine Crystal, would you get a purple plasma focus? 8-)
Either way, time to cue the music. No workshops in sight.


Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:06 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Mr Bojangles wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
...suddenly tens of thousands of angry Canucks were riding their Battle Moose into New York state...
.


Not to discount everything else you said, but I completely lost it here. :lol: I just can't get the image out of my head...
Let me make it worse:
Spoiler: show
Image
ImageHope this one works. Teddy Roosevelt.
Image
Image
Image
Swedish cavalry experimented with Moose

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Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:27 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Krulle wrote:
Mr Bojangles wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
...suddenly tens of thousands of angry Canucks were riding their Battle Moose into New York state...
.


Not to discount everything else you said, but I completely lost it here. :lol: I just can't get the image out of my head...
Let me make it worse:
Spoiler: show
Image
ImageHope this one works. Teddy Roosevelt.
Image
Image
Image
Swedish cavalry experimented with Moose


So, the reasons basically boil down to "Moose are too smart and refused to do what you need them to do"?
...
Can't Loroi basically psychically control critters?


Fri Jul 15, 2016 1:41 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Krulle wrote:
Mr Bojangles wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
...suddenly tens of thousands of angry Canucks were riding their Battle Moose into New York state...
.


Not to discount everything else you said, but I completely lost it here. :lol: I just can't get the image out of my head...
Let me make it worse:
Spoiler: show
Image
ImageHope this one works. Teddy Roosevelt.
Image
Image
Image
Swedish cavalry experimented with Moose

Holy shit, people tried to make Battle Moose an actual THING?! Krulle, you didn't make things worse, you made things better!


Fri Jul 15, 2016 2:40 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Tamri wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Sure, but if the Historians were trying to play Umiak and Loroi off of each other - which is a great move in their position - or if they previously supported the Hierarchy, but decided they'd rather not be gobbled up by the fanatic collectivist bugs and backed the Loroi - then they would probably not give both sides plasma technology that can be easily identified as the same stuff.

And since we know they're super-advanced, I wouldn't really put it past them to be able to throw together an example plasma focus with entirely different technological lineage, invented out of whole cloth, for the Loroi to study; assuming that they don't actually have more than one Focus technology in their libraries.



According to Jim, in focus of the plasma used manipulation by certain forces in the plasma itself (electromagnetism? nuclear / quantum interaction? hell knows). That in itself means that "focus principle" - essentially a manipulation by other forces, or radically different mechanism application have known forces rather than banal replacement lenses on the sleeve.
I'm not so certain: Loroi weapons (with the conditional exception of the Wave Loom) are all discrete devices, whereas if I recall correctly the Historian system is an array of devices, effectively making Historian ships equivalent to a Loroi Pulse Cannon turned inside-out. I'd say that even if only in terms of diameter, that is a meaningful "change of lenses".


Krulle wrote:
Spoiler: show
ImageHope this one works. Teddy Roosevelt.
... Of course he rode a moose, there's probably a law of physics that mandated of.


Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:44 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
In the prologue, Captain Hamilton says they chose the coordinates Bellarmine travelled to (and Jardin, as narrator, mentions other "likely spots" for the other ships) based on "intel". Was this intel solely what they gathered from the Orgus or was there newer information? If so, how and when did they receive it? I would guess even an "innocuous" probe would have likely been intercepted by either the Umiak or the Loroi, but perhaps not? Or is there "classified" intel on secondary "alien" contacts after the Orgus that we don't know about yet?

CJSF


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
cacambo43 wrote:
In the prologue, Captain Hamilton says they chose the coordinates Bellarmine travelled to (and Jardin, as narrator, mentions other "likely spots" for the other ships) based on "intel". Was this intel solely what they gathered from the Orgus or was there newer information? If so, how and when did they receive it? I would guess even an "innocuous" probe would have likely been intercepted by either the Umiak or the Loroi, but perhaps not? Or is there "classified" intel on secondary "alien" contacts after the Orgus that we don't know about yet?

The target routes of the alien contact mission would have been based primarily on information gained from the Orgus. These scouts are the "probes"; Humanity doesn't have any unmanned long-range scouts that could have gone ahead, and if they did, then there probably wouldn't have been any need for the manned scouts in the first place.

Because information travels at the speed of a starship, it takes time for information to travel from one location to another. There is no way for leaders on Earth to know immediately what happened to the Bellarmine, nor for the Bellarmine or other scouts to know immediately what is happening on Earth. If there had been new sources of information since the launch of the alien contact mission, it's very unlikely that any of the scouts would know about it.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
No, I get that, Arioch. I was just wondering if there was a secondary source of intel that Alex (and us) didn't/don't know about yet. For example, maybe one or more of the Orgus told Human authorities where or how to contact another race that knew more, but it was kept secret. Or maybe an intercepted alien wreck or transmission.

CJSF


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