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Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thread 
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Maintenance and mechanical reliability are also factors to consider as well. The Panther for instance had a drive that was too fragile and an engine that was prone to overheating and maintenance was comparatively slow and difficult. The Tiger also suffered from mobility and maintenance issues, was too wide to fit on trains without some disassembly, the transmission was weak to rough handling, the weight of the tank made retrieval difficult if it was too damaged to move under its own power.

That's not to say that the German tanks were bad. They were incredibly good at their jobs, their problem is that they were in some ways over engineered. For instance, an American breech block has seven parts on one gun. The German equivalent had 56. If any one of those parts goes, the breech is useless. There's a lot more that can go wrong in 56 parts than it can in seven.

Basically it comes down to logistics. The Germans had better tanks, but couldn't field them with the same level of uptime that Shermans could manage thanks to ease of maintenance. The Sherman exchanged relative tactical weakness for overall strategic strength, and at the end of the day, tanks weren't always used to duel other tanks exclusively. They had a role to play in combined arms that had more far reaching consequences than how they stacked up to enemy armour.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
That, for me, is the reason as to why the Sherman was 'adequate' and not obsolete.

The USSR tanks, especially the T-34 was both as reliable and superior to the Sherman, hell the T34-85 variant could go up against Panthers as well.

For me the Sherman's failure was crew survivability, tankers are like pilots, you need to rotate them so the veterans can train the new recruits. The Germans did this, the Soviets and to my surprise the Americans didn't. The Soviets because they placed more weight on quantity of troops that quality of training and the Americans because their tank crew casualties were horrible (the same applied to the Brits as well).

Yes, in the end the German tanks were a logistical nightmare but they also caused disproportional damage to their enemies and if they had clear skies above them then they would be able to overpower the US beachheads on Normandy.

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Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:49 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Oh, its that WW2 discussion again? Long time not seen... ;)

Anyway, I want to add a few things to this discussion:
The first is that Germany indeed stoped funding various research projects after the fall of France in 1940. They did not scrap them, but building tanks for Brabarossa, among other things, was more vital, than for example producing various jetfighter prototypes. Why did they do this, you might ask? The war did go rather well to this point and they thought, they would win with the equipment they had. No need for developing expensive new equipment. A rather stupid move, as it turned out.

The next issue was that the Nazi leadership was very narrow minded. For example, they had a working jetfighter prototype in 1941. The today rather unknown Heinkel He 280. Why did they not build it, you might ask? Because Heinkel was famous for building bombers. They should do only that and leave fighter development for Messerschmidt or Focke-Wulf. Thats one of the reasons why Messerschmidt started developing the now famous Me 262. Later, as they were able to produce the Me 262, Hitler saw it and decided that it should be turned into a bomber. That lead to further delays and as those fighters were finally ready to go, Germany lacked the resources to build jetengines that would last longer than 10 hours in use.

Issue number three: The Nazis did not like teamwork and supported various reaserch teams and companies to rival for funds, resources and equipment. Thats the reason why there never was a German Manhattan Project or Bletchley Park. The Nazi leaders loved their pet projects, for example, deciphering was officially done by the "Abwehr", the German military intelligence. However, Himmelers SS did it, too, as well as the German postal service, the army, navy, airforce and various other projects. They never worked togehter, as the Britisch did and thats why they failed in breaking the Allied codes.

Number four: In the end the Nazis just went megalomanic. Hitler loved everything bigger and overcomplicated. Thats why they build such nonsense as, for example, the Maus tank, the Dora railwaygun and planed even bigger or useless stuff, just to please him. Other, much more useful stuff got dumped or not even funded. As an example: there were various projects for proximity fuses for the shells of AA-guns, none of them got beyond prototype stage, afaik. Instead, they build an AA version of the V2, called Wasserfall, that was never used in combat, too.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Suederwind wrote:
Oh, its that WW2 discussion again? Long time not seen...


I just wanted to find out who would be a better bar brawler. Oh well, I'll take what I get...


Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:03 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
RedDwarfIV wrote:
TrashMan wrote:
Hitler canceled the development of many cutting-edge stuff (like the sturmgeweher and the jet fighter) and pulled resoruces into stupid, short-sighted projects.

Wasn't that because they were running out of time and resources? Better planes would have taken longer than they had left just to develop them. Rocket interceptors were built because they didn't have enough plane fuel.

Then again, it is Hitler, Armchair General-In-Chief we're talking about here, so I suppose quite a few of his projects that I hadn't heard of could have been stupid.


He was TOO authoriatarian, wanting direct control over details.

He did it when coastal defences were built (he was designing them himself) and on many other occasions.

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Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:51 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
dragoongfa wrote:
The Sturmgewher was 'cancelled' only on paper, it was hidden by the German high command as a new submachine gun named MP-44 and sent into the Eastern front for 'field testing'.


Ok, correction. SOME project were cancelled, others were miss-managed.
Their priorities were frakked up.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Speaking of WWII... THEY FOUND THE MUSASHI

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Sigh... the WWII meme that won't die. The Sherman was a death trap, the T-34 a god-tank. The two were actually pretty comparable.

Like the Zero, the T-34 made its reputation early in the war, when its opponents were not well equipped to counter it. German infantry units at the start of Operation Barbarossa were still using the 37mm PaK 36's as their main AT weapon. Sherman would have been pretty scary to them also, had it been there. Heck, I'd rather have been in an early model Sherman than an early model T-34. Armor & gun are comparable, with only a slight edge to T-34, but the Sherman has better visibility arrangements, a 3 man turret, a turret basket, better communications, and, by all accounts, was far more comfortable to serve in.


Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:53 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
What purpose would the Ultraheavy warships serve? They seem way outside the optimal size for warships in this setting (in fact, at 2.2km, they're outside the optimal size for many battlestations as well). Are they used as mobile Citadels (like a mobile version of the Seren or Azimol staions)? A related question would be whether such stations, in essence, act like giant monitors.


Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:34 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Mr.Tucker wrote:
What purpose would the Ultraheavy warships serve? They seem way outside the optimal size for warships in this setting (in fact, at 2.2km, they're outside the optimal size for many battlestations as well). Are they used as mobile Citadels (like a mobile version of the Seren or Azimol staions)? A related question would be whether such stations, in essence, act like giant monitors.

Loroi intelligence is not sure what the Umiak ultraheavies are for; they were seen in action briefly during the Battle of the Tasinei Ways, in which they were used in the same way as superheavies. The two leading theories are that they are meant as citadel-killers, or as mobile temporary citadels.

A monitor and a battlestation are essentially the same thing: a warship without jump drive.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Regarding the Ultraheavies

I imagine at least three possible uses:

1st: Take and hold missions. In short when an attack fleet takes something of value a couple of Ultraheavies are quickly moved in to take up a defensive position until permanent defences can be erected.

2nd: Defence bolstering in critical positions. Depending on the Umiak defensive doctrine, they could only have light defensive stations meant to counter only light harassing strike groups, in case a system is (or in danger of being) attacked by a big armada then such ships are moved in to bolster the light defences.

3rd: Show of force ships for both the Umiak and allied/subjugated populations. Humans always liked big ships, with big guns and lot's of armor. We would be impressed by them because of that. If aliens have a similar 'show of force' attitude then they would be useful in that regard, especially in keeping the various disenfranchised allies under control.

My opinion is that the 2nd is far more probable, followed by the 1st and with the 3rd added in as a bonus.

The Loroi seem to focus heavily on light strike groups, hit and run strikes on lightly defended systems would be ideal (remember that the also have farsense). The Umiak would have to counter these attacks by placing sizeable fleet assets on every possible point of approach. This would break the fight concetrated military maxim because while the defenders have to defend 'everything' the attackers would have the capability to pick when and where to concetrate for a decisive breakthrough.

The Umiak have an impressive industrial capacity, they are more than able to produce enough picket fleets (while still being able to divert ships to the strategic reserves) but the Loroi would still be able to overwhelm them by concetrating their attack fleets on key positions. The responce to this would be to further split the reserve fleets in various active defense/reserve fleets that would quickly move in and counter attack.

However the Loroi farsense would still allow them to overwhelm such fleets easily and begin cutting the Umiak fleets piecemeal. The Umiak would have to be able to both counter attack with an overwhelming force and be able to stall the attacking fleets while that force is marshalled.

That's where the Ultra Heavies comes in, heavily armed, screened and armored, meant to intimidate and take a lot of beating. They are there to draw attention to themselves while the Umiak swarm their reserve fleets for the decisive counterattack.

The Loroi can't ignore them either because even if they are slow they become a threat in being if allowed to remain unscathed as the attack fleets push further inside Umiak territory. Such a ship would easily be able to overwhelm a lightly escorted convoy while only the heaviest Loroi ships would be able to take one out.

The time of their first appearance also coincides to this. Appearing at the height of the Semoset campaign after the Loroi managed to break through the Umiak frontline defences.

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Last edited by dragoongfa on Wed Mar 11, 2015 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.



Wed Mar 11, 2015 4:22 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Alright, got that. A further question would be how would a Loroi battlestation look like? Would an 800 metre station look basically identical to a Cataclysm sector command ship or something of that size (with all the protuding wings, nacelles, etc) or would it be a more rounded structure similar to what we might think of as a station? A second question would be whether the Wave Loom was specifically designed to counter Ultraheavies and Superheavies or was intended to be used against battleship-sized opponents and just happened to be good under such circumstances as well? How did the Loroi fight such ships at the start of the war, when the Historians hadn't given them plasma weapons (and they only had particle beams)?
A final question would be whether we'll get ever get to see one of them in action :D ?


Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:47 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
I don't have any finalized concepts for the citadels yet, but they will look more like stations than starships.

The Wave-Loom device was introduced before the Loroi encountered any Umiak ultraheavies. The Loroi admiralty were disappointed in the performance of the Wave-Loom during Semoset, because its shortcomings and reliability problems had limited the number of situations in which it could be successfully used. There was a push after the offensive to remove the expensive Wave-Loom from all new production, but advocates of the weapon pointed to the looming threat of enemy superheavies as a reason to keep it in service.

And yes, the TTK will make an appearance.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
I got a question about the Umiak. We do know that they are essentially sacrificing themselves in banzai charges but do they know that? I mean, do the Umiak crews know that there is most likely no coming back from an attrition attack or are they so prepped up with propaganda that they actually believe that they have a good chance of survival? Do they know the truth or have they been lied to about their chances?


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Sweforce wrote:
I got a question about the Umiak. We do know that they are essentially sacrificing themselves in banzai charges but do they know that? I mean, do the Umiak crews know that there is most likely no coming back from an attrition attack or are they so prepped up with propaganda that they actually believe that they have a good chance of survival? Do they know the truth or have they been lied to about their chances?

I suspect that, given their monomaniacal tendency towards working as hard as possible, it wouldn't really matter which. They probably don't care if they get blown up, so long as they have a job to do until it happens.

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Thu Mar 12, 2015 9:27 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Sweforce wrote:
I got a question about the Umiak. We do know that they are essentially sacrificing themselves in banzai charges but do they know that? I mean, do the Umiak crews know that there is most likely no coming back from an attrition attack or are they so prepped up with propaganda that they actually believe that they have a good chance of survival? Do they know the truth or have they been lied to about their chances?

Many don't know, but they haven't been "lied to;" they are expected to do what they're told without question, and most wouldn't think to ask.

There's a great quote from Twelve O'Clock High (about daylight bombing in 1942 when the 8th Air Force was getting shredded by the Germans), in which General Savage is briefing his bomber crews:

"I don't have a lot of patience with this "what are we fighting for?" stuff. We're in a war, a shooting war. We've got to fight. And some of us have got to die. I'm not trying to tell you not to be afraid. Fear is normal. But stop worrying about it and about yourselves. Stop making plans. Forget about going home. Consider yourselves already dead. Once you accept that idea, it won't be so tough. Now if any man here can't buy that... if he rates himself as something special, with a special kind of hide to be saved... he'd better make up his mind about it right now. Because I don't want him in this group."

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
How are Umiak ships armored? Are they designed to counter specific threats (ablative for plasma, superconducting loops under the skin for screens, etc), and how would that armoring be different from what Loroi/TCA/Historian ships have?


Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:50 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Mr.Tucker wrote:
How are Umiak ships armored? Are they designed to counter specific threats (ablative for plasma, superconducting loops under the skin for screens, etc), and how would that armoring be different from what Loroi/TCA/Historian ships have?

Most Umiak armor would be general-purpose and multilayered, with alternating conductive and insulating layers to mitigate damage from charged particles, and an inner layer designed to spread the force of kinetic attacks. Some ships might have ablative modules bolted to the outside of the armor in certain areas, kind of like reactive armor plates on a modern tank, but the Umiak rely mainly on their good defensive screens for protection against plasma weapons.

Loroi ships would use similar kinds of armor, though less of it. They also rely heavily on screens to resist damage from plasma weapons, which account for the majority of the enemy fire that they encounter.

Armor on Terran vessels is designed to protect against radiation, lasers and kinetic weapons, so it will also have layers but of different materials. The inner anti-kinetic layer is probably a futuristic equivalent to Kevlar.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
It has been mentioned that the Golim were a more technologically backward society at the time of contact. How backward are we talking? Hunter-gatherers? Medieval? Steam? Atomic age? Has joining the Union benefited them? It's been said that falling under Loroi influence is considered a transcendental experience. Does it leave a permanent mark on their psyche (a negative mark)?
Do the non-occupied members of the Union have police craft for internal security, or do they leave those duties or the Loroi as well?
Would 2 Loroi focusing on each other's thoughts create an infinity mirror effect?


Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:18 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Mr.Tucker wrote:
It has been mentioned that the Golim were a more technologically backward society at the time of contact. How backward are we talking? Hunter-gatherers? Medieval? Steam? Atomic age? Has joining the Union benefited them?

The Golim had a pre-spaceflight industrial culture at the time of first contact with the Mannadi, who mostly left them alone. After the Loroi-Mannadi wars, the Loroi helped the Golim to establish new colonies in exchange for their hazardous-environment labor. The Golim colonies are in effect Loroi colonies with a Golim majority population (who will do whatever the Loroi minority wants); only the Golim homeworld employs restrictions on the presence of Loroi visitors and so maintains independence. The Golim gained high technology, access to Union goods and jobs, and an interstellar society. Whether this was a benefit or a detriment depends on your point of view.

Mr.Tucker wrote:
It's been said that falling under Loroi influence is considered a transcendental experience. Does it leave a permanent mark on their psyche (a negative mark)?

It does not harm or permanently negatively affect the mind of the Golim, but it does sometimes create a psychological dependence. Some who have been in this state, once deprived of Loroi presence, actively seek to go where Loroi are so that it can be reestablished.

Mr.Tucker wrote:
Do the non-occupied members of the Union have police craft for internal security, or do they leave those duties or the Loroi as well?

Union members have the right to maintain armed vessels for internal security, in an arrangement that is similar to that of the TCA's member states.

Mr.Tucker wrote:
Would 2 Loroi focusing on each other's thoughts create an infinity mirror effect?

Not any more than two humans trying to mimic each other's speech. They would end up shouting the same word or phrase at each other over and over.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Alright, I have yet another query: we are told that the Historian representative we meet on the bridge is a ''construct'', AKA a computer program that handles diplomatic missions. Is this AI truly a thinking machine? As in ''hard AI''? If that is so, is it possible for such constructs to man historian ships on their own (with no flesh-and-blood crewmember onboard), thus helping the historians secure their borders and offer aid in the war?


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
Mr.Tucker wrote:
Alright, I have yet another query: we are told that the Historian representative we meet on the bridge is a ''construct'', AKA a computer program that handles diplomatic missions. Is this AI truly a thinking machine? As in ''hard AI''? If that is so, is it possible for such constructs to man historian ships on their own (with no flesh-and-blood crewmember onboard), thus helping the historians secure their borders and offer aid in the war?

Whether the Historian constructs are truly sentient or are merely pre-programmed puppets is not known, but they conduct nearly all Historian business with other races. Historian vessels that operate beyond their own borders (mostly small courier-type vessels) are usually completely unmanned.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
In that regard - is there actually any proof of there being a biological race called the historians? Are the Loroi aware of their existance? Or is it possible that those AI constructs are in fact the historians themselves.


Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:38 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
junk wrote:
In that regard - is there actually any proof of there being a biological race called the historians? Are the Loroi aware of their existance? Or is it possible that those AI constructs are in fact the historians themselves.

viewtopic.php?p=11420#p11420

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre
About the Pipolsid:

How they manage to develop a technological civilization ? Fire is effectively impossible without specialized resources...

They use some sort of "seacrete" (somewhat resembling shellfish shells) in their construcions ?

I presume that they extract metal supplies from the deep sea, in raw form ?

How they interact with the other races ?

How they get in orbit ? Water is heavier than air. Their ships must be small then ?

They use the Loroi for most of their defense ?


Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:11 pm
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