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hi hi

De-facto: In fact, or in reality. Denoting something that exists in reality, but not necessarily legally or technically. "Although it is winter in the Caribbean, it is in a state of de-facto summer all year long."

De-jure: Technically, and/or legally mandated, but not necessarily in effect or reality. "This is a de-jure restaurant, but it's really just a cesspool of filth."

Any sapient species becomes a de-facto absolute predator, because even if they don't prey on anything for food, anything that messes with them is going down in a real big way.

Even things that don't mess with them are going to be brushed aside if they want to expand into new territory. Humans have been extinguishing all kinds of species that we don't eat, just because nothing can compete with us.

raistlin34 wrote:Couldn´t a prey specie develope sapience in order to better protect itself from its predators?

Elephants are the only example I can think of in which a purely herbivorous animal has developed a high degree of intelligence. Having a complex social structure and needing to migrate often in response to changes in your harsh environment probably helps.

Gorillas are primarily herbivorous, but I don't think they're exclusively so, and they're almost certainly descended from primates who were not (as they still have huge canine teeth).

raistlin34 wrote:Couldn´t a prey specie develope sapience in order to better protect itself from its predators?

I don't see why not. just look at humans. piss poor predator without tools. no claws, no jaws. probably was preyed upon by other predators

raistlin34 wrote:Couldn´t a prey specie develope sapience in order to better protect itself from its predators?

depends on what you call "pary"

intelligence doesn't seem to form for defensive measures, instead all species that have high intelligence "hunt" for energy dense foods. it doesn't matter if that energy dense food is fruits and nuts or a herd of gazelles a intelligent mind needs a lot of energy. energy you can't get by grazing on grass and leaves alone. for animals like that its more efficient to focus on simple instincts, speed and tricks like camo then on a bigger mind.

hi hi

all species that have high intelligence "hurt" for energy dense foods.

This is demonstrably not true. The African Grey Parrot, for example, is a bird that eats fruits and seeds and is one of the most intelligent animals we know of.

It's a smart bird. But that doesn't make it particularly high intelligence there, all things considered.

hi hi

It's a smart bird. But that doesn't make it particularly high intelligence there, all things considered.

What does that even mean? "Particularly high intelligence, all things considered."

African Greys have intelligence on par with human children, they're one of the most intelligent animals on Earth, all things considered. What is the bar for intelligence we're using here? Do only fictional species from other planets count?

icekatze wrote:hi hi

all species that have high intelligence "hurt" for energy dense foods.

This is demonstrably not true. The African Grey Parrot, for example, is a bird that eats fruits and seeds and is one of the most intelligent animals we know of.

i know i made a spelling mistake (puting hurt instead of hunt fixed now btw ) but I my post clearly answer your question. literally in the next line were i explicitly said fruits and nuts (okay not the word exactly but a type of seed) are some of the energy dense foods that need to be "hunted". here "hunted" being used in the "treasure hunt" sense of using prior knowledge and find clues to get the food they want.

Also, I think opportunistic "predators" may have a bigger chance to develope their brains than the more physically endowed competition. Like ravens vs eagles.

icekatze wrote: What does that even mean? "Particularly high intelligence, all things considered."

African Greys have intelligence on par with human children, they're one of the most intelligent animals on Earth, all things considered. What is the bar for intelligence we're using here? Do only fictional species from other planets count?

Meaning they're just birds. Even with adult brains, they're not very smart.

"What is the bar for intelligence we're using here?"

Metacognition would be a good start. And they're not 'on par' with human children -in general-, only in some specific areas.

Corvids and parrots are pretty smart compared to any animal.

For opportunistic, omnivorous corvids the benefit of intelligence is pretty obvious, and not that dissimilar from primates. In the case of parrots, I think the brainpower needed for their mimicry leads to them being smarter than is strictly necessary for their eating habits. In a similar that brainpower needed for their color display/camouflage makes octopuses and cuttlefish smarter than is strictly necessary for a mollusc.

hi hi

If metacognition is the bar we're using, then our sample size for the discussion is exactly 1. Not a very good number to make generalizations from.

Maybe some day, scientists will find a foolproof way of testing metacognition in animals, but for now, it is still hotly contested. None of the experiments done to date that provide supporting evidence have a high degree of certainty that the results aren't caused by low-level mechanisms.

There are lots of things that can cause pressure towards intelligence, everything from competing for mates and demanding child rearing to simple genetic drift when food is plentiful.

icekatze wrote:hi hi

If metacognition is the bar we're using, then our sample size for the discussion is exactly 1.

That isn't really true. Or at very least, we have strong indications to doubt it. In any case, Grey African Parrots aren't sapient, and they certainly aren't intelligent compared to humans.

hi hi

As far as I know, the only animal that was given the Smith, Shields, and Washburn test with forced and unforced choice discrimination, and didn't show a difference was pigeons. Every other animal that's been tested passed, including rats. Western Scrub-Jays have passed tests that are supposed to suggest metacognitive ability. But a lot has been said about how it is impossible to get a high degree of confidence on metacognition with simple tests, and to date, no one has been able to communicate with any animal via language to ask them.

Metacognition in animals - how do we know that they know, J. Jozefowiez, J. E. R. Staddon, D. T. Cerutti

Metacognition in animals, Jonathon D. Crystal, Allison L. Foote

Hint-Seeking Behaviour of Western Scrub-Jays in a Metacognition Task, A Watanabe et al.

Not that this it isn't necessarily FASCINATING, but can we take the firearms discussion to another thread?

CJSF

I split the weapons discussion to this thread: http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... f=4&t=2290

Arioch wrote:I split the weapons discussion to this thread: http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... f=4&t=2290

Thanks, Arioch.

CJSF

How likely are the Umiak to expand into Human space if they win this war with the Loroi, given the fact previous empires regarded it as not worth colonizing?
Could it be regarded as a refuge for the Loroi, or would the Umiak search all neighboring space in a genocidal hunt for any remnants or secret colonies?

CF2 wrote:How likely are the Umiak to expand into Human space if they win this war with the Loroi, given the fact previous empires regarded it as not worth colonizing?
Could it be regarded as a refuge for the Loroi, or would the Umiak search all neighboring space in a genocidal hunt for any remnants or secret colonies?

There are too many hypotheticals there to give a definitive answer, but... if the various parties knew there were inhabited worlds beyond the Great Wasteland, it would change their strategic view of the region.

Arioch wrote:

CF2 wrote:How likely are the Umiak to expand into Human space if they win this war with the Loroi, given the fact previous empires regarded it as not worth colonizing?
Could it be regarded as a refuge for the Loroi, or would the Umiak search all neighboring space in a genocidal hunt for any remnants or secret colonies?

There are too many hypotheticals there to give a definitive answer, but... if the various parties knew there were inhabited worlds beyond the Great Wasteland, it would change their strategic view of the region.

To be honest I am a bit curious about the "Great Wasteland" Do they know that there is nothing of value there or is it more of, "well we looked and did not see much around so there probably is nothing worth going after"? Perhaps Humanity is sitting on a resource gold mine and no one else knows because they have no bothered to look.