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Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thread
http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=884
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Author:  Arioch [ Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Corvids and parrots are pretty smart compared to any animal.

For opportunistic, omnivorous corvids the benefit of intelligence is pretty obvious, and not that dissimilar from primates. In the case of parrots, I think the brainpower needed for their mimicry leads to them being smarter than is strictly necessary for their eating habits. In a similar that brainpower needed for their color display/camouflage makes octopuses and cuttlefish smarter than is strictly necessary for a mollusc.

Author:  icekatze [ Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

hi hi

If metacognition is the bar we're using, then our sample size for the discussion is exactly 1. Not a very good number to make generalizations from.

Maybe some day, scientists will find a foolproof way of testing metacognition in animals, but for now, it is still hotly contested. None of the experiments done to date that provide supporting evidence have a high degree of certainty that the results aren't caused by low-level mechanisms.

There are lots of things that can cause pressure towards intelligence, everything from competing for mates and demanding child rearing to simple genetic drift when food is plentiful.

Author:  harlequin2262 [ Sat Jul 15, 2017 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

icekatze wrote:
hi hi

If metacognition is the bar we're using, then our sample size for the discussion is exactly 1.


That isn't really true. Or at very least, we have strong indications to doubt it. In any case, Grey African Parrots aren't sapient, and they certainly aren't intelligent compared to humans.

Author:  icekatze [ Sat Jul 15, 2017 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

hi hi

As far as I know, the only animal that was given the Smith, Shields, and Washburn test with forced and unforced choice discrimination, and didn't show a difference was pigeons. Every other animal that's been tested passed, including rats. Western Scrub-Jays have passed tests that are supposed to suggest metacognitive ability. But a lot has been said about how it is impossible to get a high degree of confidence on metacognition with simple tests, and to date, no one has been able to communicate with any animal via language to ask them.

Metacognition in animals - how do we know that they know, J. Jozefowiez, J. E. R. Staddon, D. T. Cerutti

Metacognition in animals, Jonathon D. Crystal, Allison L. Foote

Hint-Seeking Behaviour of Western Scrub-Jays in a Metacognition Task, A Watanabe et al.

Author:  cacambo43 [ Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Not that this it isn't necessarily FASCINATING, but can we take the firearms discussion to another thread?

CJSF

Author:  Arioch [ Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

I split the weapons discussion to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2290

Author:  cacambo43 [ Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Arioch wrote:
I split the weapons discussion to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2290

Thanks, Arioch.

CJSF

Author:  CF2 [ Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

How likely are the Umiak to expand into Human space if they win this war with the Loroi, given the fact previous empires regarded it as not worth colonizing?
Could it be regarded as a refuge for the Loroi, or would the Umiak search all neighboring space in a genocidal hunt for any remnants or secret colonies?

Author:  Arioch [ Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

CF2 wrote:
How likely are the Umiak to expand into Human space if they win this war with the Loroi, given the fact previous empires regarded it as not worth colonizing?
Could it be regarded as a refuge for the Loroi, or would the Umiak search all neighboring space in a genocidal hunt for any remnants or secret colonies?

There are too many hypotheticals there to give a definitive answer, but... if the various parties knew there were inhabited worlds beyond the Great Wasteland, it would change their strategic view of the region.

Author:  D1ff3r3nt [ Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Arioch wrote:
CF2 wrote:
How likely are the Umiak to expand into Human space if they win this war with the Loroi, given the fact previous empires regarded it as not worth colonizing?
Could it be regarded as a refuge for the Loroi, or would the Umiak search all neighboring space in a genocidal hunt for any remnants or secret colonies?

There are too many hypotheticals there to give a definitive answer, but... if the various parties knew there were inhabited worlds beyond the Great Wasteland, it would change their strategic view of the region.

To be honest I am a bit curious about the "Great Wasteland" Do they know that there is nothing of value there or is it more of, "well we looked and did not see much around so there probably is nothing worth going after"? Perhaps Humanity is sitting on a resource gold mine and no one else knows because they have no bothered to look.

Author:  CF2 [ Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

D1ff3r3nt wrote:
To be honest I am a bit curious about the "Great Wasteland" Do they know that there is nothing of value there or is it more of, "well we looked and did not see much around so there probably is nothing worth going after"? Perhaps Humanity is sitting on a resource gold mine and no one else knows because they have no bothered to look.

Well, we know that the previous regional empire had located earth and sampled its species (thus the existence of the Loroi), so it seems likely that if there were a treasure trove of valuable resources in the area they likely plundered it and moved on. The only real exception to that appears to be the Earth itself, which is a very habitable world by our standards and those of the Loroi too I'd imagine. Yet a lone habitable world far from galactic trade lanes and the inhabited parts of their empire would have made for a lonely frontier colony at best, and an unprofitable venture at worst.

Author:  Jayngfet [ Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

I think the biggest indicator of how useful the other groups view earth is probably based on how useful they are to a species that's only a few steps behind. I.E. Humanity.

Remember that there's only two other life bearing worlds in human space, and they aren't overly habitable or advanced, even to a species who's one advantage over most others is they can just throw bodies at a problem due to population. But you can't throw bodies at an issue of a thin to nearly nonexistant gravity well, or an atmosphere that just won't work for you, or the fact that there just aren't a lot of valuable minerals to mine on these planets to begin with, and most of that has no one click fix with the tech the other groups have.

Hell, based on the scale of what's available, half the human colonies wouldn't even be worth it with the level the Historians are at.

EDIT: I did a bit more reading and it's even less useful. With no less than three precursors who could just make or renovate planets to be far more habitable than ANY of the human colonies, there really doesn't seem to be much use in investing in this region of the galaxy, except maybe academic curiosity.

Author:  GeoModder [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Jayngfet wrote:
Remember that there's only two other life bearing worlds in human space, and they aren't overly habitable or advanced, even to a species who's one advantage over most others is they can just throw bodies at a problem due to population. But you can't throw bodies at an issue of a thin to nearly nonexistant gravity well, or an atmosphere that just won't work for you, or the fact that there just aren't a lot of valuable minerals to mine on these planets to begin with, and most of that has no one click fix with the tech the other groups have.

Hell, based on the scale of what's available, half the human colonies wouldn't even be worth it with the level the Historians are at.

EDIT: I did a bit more reading and it's even less useful. With no less than three precursors who could just make or renovate planets to be far more habitable than ANY of the human colonies, there really doesn't seem to be much use in investing in this region of the galaxy, except maybe academic curiosity.


On the other hand, there are 3 habitable worlds within a mere dozen lightyears of eachother (in the current epoch, probably not back in the Soia era).
In that light, I'd say its more surprising scouts haven't found at least another one somewhere on the edge of the explored region of human space.
Unless as stated in the "Humanity in 2160" Insider read, the 82 Eridani passage really is the only feasible route out of Humanity's relatively isolated bubble of space.

Which brings me to a question:
Arioch, is 82 Eridani the only feasible way out of Human space because of Humanity's limited space-faring technology (ship&supply endurance), or is it because there literally aren't other viable jumproutes out of its explored bubble (no other safe 'connections' with stars outside the explored region).

Author:  Arioch [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

There are other routes leading deeper into the Great Wasteland.

Author:  Absalom [ Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

That... sounds strategically (super-strategically?) interesting to the Loroi.

Author:  Sweforce [ Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

For stuff humanity and others can do and they Soian's and other precursors have done I suggest taking a look at these two futurists work.

Isaac Arthur's channel:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZFipe ... Ujx6grh54g

John Michael Godier's channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEszlI ... U8LSAiRbDg

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