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[Tash]

...Even ones that were in service only fifty some years before?

You might be thinking early nineteenth, perhaps eighteenth century ships. The Victorian era is later 19th. They're not using smoothbore cannons.

They're certainly still inferior, and it's highly doubtful they could sink a battleship from the 40s, but it's nothing like the tech gap between mass drivers and blasters.

Besides, the operative word I've seen used is 'damage', as in hit and destroy the weaker sections of the vessel.

[CptWinters]

A single shot from a human cruiser in Outsider, if it connects, can severly damge or even destroy a Loroi ship.

But it won't. And that's the heart of the issue. It's all well and good to say "if this" and "if that," but it just isn't going to happen.

The difference betwen old and new seems to wane the more forward technologicly things are.
In other wiords, technical difference between a 2100 and 2200 human warship is far smaller than a difference between a 1950 and 1850 warship.

I'm not really sure that's true. The F-15, one of the best, if not the best air-superiority fighter is beaten by an F-22 at 20:1 odds. Sure, those missiles on the F-15 will jack the F-22 up, no problem. But they still have to hit the target to be effective.

[Ktrain]

There are some noticalbe stages, some tresholds, after which you become almost invulnerable. Tank vs. musket/spear? No contest.

Not in CivIII

[Trantor]

The F-15, one of the best, if not the best

LOL.
Google "COPE India".

[TrashMan]

...Even ones that were in service only fifty some years before?

You might be thinking early nineteenth, perhaps eighteenth century ships. The Victorian era is later 19th. They're not using smoothbore cannons.

You are right, my bad. However, I'd like to point out that the difference between human and Loroi is stated to be 200 years, NOT 50 - which is exactly the difference I was reffering to. In fact, I halved that difference just to be nice.

So your comparison kinda fails, doesn't it?

[Ktrain]

I read that at humanity's current rate of development that we were somewhere between 100yrs-200yrs behind the current tech level; which if the Loroi were at our current tech levels they would be 800-1000somthing years behind. Also, measuring the tech gap between in terms of years can really only yield conclusions about the rate of advancement and not necessarily the qualitative differences between societies. The Victorian/WII analogy is only that, an analogy, technology 200 years from now maybe 200 years ahead but may utilize the same principles used today (that implies real technological breakthroughs slow or humanity hits sort of a brickwall/hurdle). Quality comparisons require a different form of analysis.

[fredgiblet]

The F-15, one of the best, if not the best

LOL.
Google "COPE India".

COPE was an exercise where the rules were deliberately stacked against the US forces. You might want to take at look at the OPERATIONAL record of the Eagle.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Though I am loath to wade into what might become a flame war, I must point out that the combat performance of many modern fighters is determined primarily by their radar. The F-15 as an airframe was never anything particularly special, but it had a powerful targeting radar and the ability to fire its missiles from a long distance.

I realize that this is something of a tangent, but it always bugged me in these kinds of debates. The F-15 from the perspective of aerodynamics was so uninspired, but I guess it proved that it didn't really matter so much in a typical engagement.

[fredgiblet]

And the Eagles in COPE didn't have the AESA radars that were usually mixed in. This is also why I always find it amusing when people point to the mock dogfight that the F-22s lost in Europe, while it may have lost in that engagement, had it been shooting war its opponents would have been dead before they knew they were being engaged.

[Trantor]

You might want to take at look at the OPERATIONAL record of the Eagle.

You might want to read somethink like Sun Tzu´s "Art of War", Chapter 6: "Weak Points & Strong/Illusion and Reality".
Falling for your own PR isn´t exactly a smart move.



"Da Best of da Best of da BEST, Sssirrr!!1!" *snicker*

[Nemo]

So war games with contrived rules bringing about foreseeable consequences is reality. And operational records are PR. K.

[Trantor]

So war games with contrived rules bringing about foreseeable consequences is reality. And operational records are PR. K.

Operational records? Against whom? And what if you encounter a real airforce?
You should have given the Indians a lesson anyway, tiny little rocket-toys or not. But it was the other way round.

I´m not interested in another B/S-flamewar, so i´ll leave it here. Just keep on dreamin´, self-deception is a wonderful thing sometimes.

[Voitan]

So war games with contrived rules bringing about foreseeable consequences is reality. And operational records are PR. K.

I´m not interested in another B/S-flamewar, so i´ll leave it here. Just keep on dreamin´, self-deception is a wonderful thing sometimes.

These aren't necessary.

As for the operational record of the F-15, it's an old war bird. It's been used by several countries and has racked up a nice kill ratio.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_ ... al_history

It wasn't that hard to google it, so don't take the easy way out by insulting everyone, by bowing out now while saying we're deluded fools.

[Trantor]

by bowing out now

The alternative would be another endless and useless thread.

while saying we're deluded fools.

You don´t understand. It´s not about "insulting". It´s for your own benefit not to fool yourself.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Fun Facts: The F-16 was the first fighter to make use of relaxed static stability/fly-by wire, set the bar for maneuverability at 9Gs (after which limiters are used to prevent pilot injury), and uses a light weight fixed inlet that can still reach mach 2 without moving parts. ((though I have to say the JSF's diverterless intake blew my mind when I first saw it))

[Voitan]

by bowing out now

The alternative would be another endless and useless thread.

Fine, it shall be that way as you are not an equal participant in this discussion, we provide information backing our words, but you keep on retorting with insults, and admitting no fault.

[TrashMan]

Settle down kids!
Don't make bring out my whipping stick!

[Death by Chains]

Hi, folks. I just came back to reading Outsider and discovered the updates since I dropped out a couple of years ago, and there are a couple of things that struck me about the latest installment.

- The Aphid Admiral may be bluffing.
Not so much about the 'sneak' attack past Azimol (though, see below), but by revealing his full* wall-of-battle to Strike Group 51. From Tempo's earlier comments, the Boss Bug has seemingly smashed two other Loroi task-forces in this system already... but how much ammo did he burn up doing it? And how badly did they hurt him before they succumbed? Note that he's hanging back at a distance and location that obscures any existing damage to his ships from Loroi observation. Yes, he's got more and heavier metal, but if he has to take on a legend like [The Storm-Witch] with empty missile-racks and possibly wounded ships, she can hurt him a lot worse than the force-ratios might suggest, and none other than Stillstorm herself - vocally no admirer of any 'Shell' - has said that this Umiak is atypically smart about not going all-in when he's not holding pocket aces. (Possibly his penchant for husbanding his forces is an attempt to build up and maintain a core of experienced ships/crews for future use, perhaps to create an elite unit to counter the likes of SG 51?)
So what does he do? He picks up the phone and dials 0800 PSY WAR. The call costs him nothing to make, and if it works, he 'scares' Stillstorm into refusing further action and preserves his current fleet to fight another time and place, when they've got full magazines and he's had more leisure to stack the deck. If it fails, all he's wasted is time and electrons, and as much as it will hurt him to attack and destroy SG 51 without a preparatory torpedo-barrage to soften and split their defences, all those heavies and superheavies mean he's got more than enough beam-projectors to finish the job in a straight-up slugging match.
And if this tactical bluff (I can crush your task-force, but I respect you: leave me the derelict and I'll let you leave and live) is layered over a truth about the operational/strategic situation (there's a deep strike going in on your territory: All Your Azimol Citadel Are Belong To Us), it actually works out even better than just charging in with plasma-foci blazing, because he's bought time for the Khlakha Divisions to reach their targets and he gets to take out one of the Loroi's most elite formations (and admirals) just as the Loroi most need it and her.

* And yes, somehow I think Kikitik-27 is showing all of his cards/hulls. The auto-translator's dialect uses a lot of stock-phrases, true, but the way 'Intent and Means' was repeated struck me as being of almost ritual significance; Umiak psychology/military honour may not allow him to conceal any of his forces during parlay with an honoured enemy.


- Humanity may not be so psi-immune after all.
I haven't seen any discussion of this point yet: Kikitik-27's assertion that the 'far-sensor jammer' is an Umiak innovation casts doubt upon the readership's previous assumption that Alex's apparent imperviousness to Loroi mental powers is a human trait. What if it was the 'damping field', rather than human physiology, that helped obscure Bellarmine to the far-seers? And what if it's the effects of Umiak 'jamming' rendering Alex invisible to the far-seers even when he's standing on Tempest's bridge? There goes one of humanity's supposed 'advantages'.
We might have to find another ace up our sleeve....

[TrashMan]

Actaully, by not accelerating in the cloud and bursting out of it at great speeds, the Umiak loose a great tactical advantage.

From a dead start, they CANNOT overtake the Loroi force. The Loroi out-accelerate them and would just blow the Bell and high-tail it out of there.
However, if they had built-up sufficient speed before coming out of the cloud..the Loroi could not escape.

[Death by Chains]

Actaully, by not accelerating in the cloud and bursting out of it at great speeds, the Umiak loose a great tactical advantage.

From a dead start, they CANNOT overtake the Loroi force. The Loroi out-accelerate them and would just blow the Bell and high-tail it out of there.
However, if they had built-up sufficient speed before coming out of the cloud..the Loroi could not escape.

Somehow I'd actually forgotten about the Loroi's better turn of accel when I wrote that.

OTOH, that does feed into the ritualistic feel of Kikitik-27's behaviour: displaying the full might at his disposal, while ceding the velocity advantage of pre-acceleration, tells the Loroi that despite his far-greater firepower he's not looking to engage. In turn, this grants a certain degree of perceived honesty to his claim about the Khlakha Divisions' strikes being irrevocable; it says "I don't need to run you down here and now - your whole race is already screwed".
It still might be a case of layering a ritual of honesty over a tactical bluff over a strategic truth, though: the perceived credibility granted by his actions saying "I have more than enough firepower to kill you, but given the wider situation I don't need to do it here and now" lets Kikitik-27 get away with not letting them know "My ships are hurt and Winchester, so if I had come out to kill you I'd've paid more cash for it than I'd really like".