Farsense and Sensibility.

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dfacto
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Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by dfacto »

Lots of discussion on farsensing so I thought it could use its own thread. Probably again.

My take on it:

Loroi telepathy is instant, as it says in the Outsider, and so is the Farsensing device. It has to be because
1) It's an extension of the Loroi telepathy
2) If it wasn't it would be useless for interception of enemies

So that being said I theorize that telepathy in general is a hyperspace phenomenon. The only other "instant" anything in Outsiderverse (other than the coffee I presume) is hyperspace jump technology, so there's definitely a circumstantial link to be made.

The Loroi and other species could have a hyperspace presence due to their body chemistry (kinda like how plants apparently have quantumly entangled particles for photosynthesis). The Loroi have the greatest signature, which gives them the greatest ability to exploit hyperspace, but other species are also partially "in" hyperspace which allows them to be detected or otherwise interacted with. Humans and everything in our biosphere has a different body chemistry and no hyperspace signature (perhaps with the exception of a rare few).

In relation to the Umiak jammin/cloaking, since farsensing is linked to hyperspace a countermeasure would need to disrupt hyperspace signals somehow. Perhaps the Umiak tested some new jump drive and found it to cause the ships to be undetectable, or maybe they created a specific jammer to prevent those within its field from interacting with hyperspace? There are a few different paths towards exploitation here.

That's my take on it anyways. Seems sensible unless there's another hyperspace plane, or everything in the universe is ludicrously entangled.

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Arioch
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Arioch »

First of all, +10 for the Jane Austen reference.

There is certainly some kind of "extra-dimensional" element to telepathy and psionics. In addition to the instantaneous quality of telepathy, there is also the question of conservation of energy when it comes to psychokinetic abilities. If the energy required to lift a boulder isn't being drawn from the heat of the psi's own body or her surroundings, where does it come from? Somewhere else, apparently.

The concept of quantum entanglement (or that distant objects can be physically connected in some way) is also very apt. It's at the heart of the Barsam pseudo-mystical interpretation of telepathy: that because all sentient beings are truly "one", there is some kind of literal tangible connection between minds, no matter how alien. Naturally the Loroi regard this view as complete nonsense.

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Trantor
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Trantor »

dfacto wrote:Loroi telepathy is instant, as it says in the Outsider, and so is the Farsensing device. It has to be because
1) It's an extension of the Loroi telepathy
2) If it wasn't it would be useless for interception of enemies

So that being said I theorize that telepathy in general is a hyperspace phenomenon. The only other "instant" anything in Outsiderverse (other than the coffee I presume) is hyperspace jump technology, so there's definitely a circumstantial link to be made.
Gravity, too.
Arioch wrote:There is certainly some kind of "extra-dimensional" element to telepathy and psionics. In addition to the instantaneous quality of telepathy, there is also the question of conservation of energy when it comes to psychokinetic abilities. If the energy required to lift a boulder isn't being drawn from the heat of the psi's own body or her surroundings, where does it come from? Somewhere else, apparently.
Dark Energy. The antipode to gravity. This may also be the "source" or the "track" why/whereon jumptech works.
sapere aude.

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Mjolnir
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Mjolnir »

Trantor wrote:
dfacto wrote:So that being said I theorize that telepathy in general is a hyperspace phenomenon. The only other "instant" anything in Outsiderverse (other than the coffee I presume) is hyperspace jump technology, so there's definitely a circumstantial link to be made.
Gravity, too.
Where is gravity in Outsider said to be instantaneous in effect?

The only thing I've seen that implies anything of the sort would be the problems the Well of Souls caused around the mid 1400s CE, and even that doesn't require it to be instantaneous...the wavefront may have been traveling for decades before it reached the important jump routes and made the war impractical to continue, or the FTL component of the disruption may have been an effect specific to hyperspace.

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Trantor
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Trantor »

Mjolnir wrote:
Trantor wrote:Gravity, too.
Where is gravity in Outsider said to be instantaneous in effect?
Sry, my dictionary is broken. I meant "gravitation".
sapere aude.

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Mjolnir
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Mjolnir »

Trantor wrote:
Mjolnir wrote:
Trantor wrote:Gravity, too.
Where is gravity in Outsider said to be instantaneous in effect?
Sry, my dictionary is broken. I meant "gravitation".
Same question applies.

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Trantor
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Trantor »

Mjolnir wrote:
Trantor wrote:
Mjolnir wrote:Where is gravity in Outsider said to be instantaneous in effect?
Sry, my dictionary is broken. I meant "gravitation".
Same question applies.
?
If otherwise, how do jumps work?
sapere aude.

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Mjolnir
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Mjolnir »

Trantor wrote:
Mjolnir wrote:Same question applies.
?
If otherwise, how do jumps work?
Well...as described in the Insider and elsewhere. Why would the jump drive imply instantaneous gravitation?

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Trantor
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Trantor »

Mjolnir wrote:Why would the jump drive imply instantaneous gravitation?
Ok. Maybe not gravitation. In this sense too newtonian, too, so i cancel that claim.
But there must be sth like quantum entanglement, otherwise i can hardly imagine jumps and farseeing.

Maybe i´m killing catgirls here... :|


But back to dfactos theory: Maybe the Umiak don´t disturbe hyperspace itself, but sth on the threshold to it?
sapere aude.

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Arioch
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Arioch »

It seems natural to think of gravity as traveling faster than light, since it seems to act instantaneously from unlimited distance (I recall making an observation something like this during a discussion about why I thought Gravitons were nonsense), but if you accept that gravity is caused by warping of space-time, then it's the warping itself that can't propagate faster than light. In other words, if a new star was suddenly to appear out of nowhere one light year away from you, you shouldn't be able to feel the gravitational pull of that star right away, because it will take time for that new dimple to propagate through space-time and reach you. I still think Gravitons are nonsense, but if they do exist, it seems to me that the Graviton acts on space-time, and not directly on other objects.

dfacto
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by dfacto »

I don't think there should be any confusion with the hyperspace-realspace gravity interaction. Once you enter hyperspace all points are accessed instantly (or close enough). The gravity where you start and the gravity along your vector are all as they truly are at that moment, not as you see them through a sensor from many lightyears away.

That's why something like the Well of Souls can totally block jumps. You don't sense its gravitational presence, and you don't see anything different, but once you enter realspace it turns out there are powerful gravity disturbances between you and your target and the jump falls short or rebounds long because of them.


Also gravity shouldn't play any role in telepathy since long-range sensing would be completely blocked by the star of the given system.

Or maybe telepathy works through subspace? Can we get a yay/nay on demonic possessions of farseers? :P

Voitan
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Voitan »

There's a theory that because gravity is a much weaker force compared to other atomic forces, is because it comes from a different dimension.

Perhaps the energy used for Telekinesis is drawn from a dimension that all matter is connected to, thus allowing objects to be manipulated, a dimension that cannot be measured, or detected so far with Outsider's technology, or perhaps it has been, I don't know.

And much like that reasoning, perhaps telepathy, and farsensing other life forms, is because life is a dimple/beacon on some dimensional layer that those with psychic ability can percieve immediately should they turn their attention in a direction and "reach out", and even "read" or communicate with those minds should they properly focus in.

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Grayhome
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Grayhome »

Defacto brings up an interesting point, can telepathy work on other Loroi to "possess" them as they do with the Golim? Can a stronger/older telepath possess the mind of a weaker/younger less experienced telepath or can a willing Loroi submit to the will and merge with another, more dominant telepath forging a stronger mind between the two governed by the one? Gah! So little is known about telepathy in the Outsider-verse!

I read somewhere that in Chapter 2 some explanation will occur though, so it won't be too far off.

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Arioch
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Arioch »

Voitan wrote:There's a theory that because gravity is a much weaker force compared to other atomic forces, is because it comes from a different dimension.
More specifically, that gravitons are not bound to our "brane" and diffuse to other planes of existence, whereas photons and the strong and weak nuclear forces are confined to our "real" space. It's wacky String Theory stuff, but it certainly serves my purposes of realspace gravity affecting hyperspace.
Grayhome wrote:I read somewhere that in Chapter 2 some explanation will occur though, so it won't be too far off.
More demonstration than explanation, but yes.

dex drako
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by dex drako »

Something to think about is just because it's "extra-dimensional" doesn't mean it has to be hyperspace related. arioch's graphs shows there is at least a "sub space" as well and who knows what else.

I mean I like the idea but making it a jump drive makes it just feels too easy for me. because to me this means loroi should be able to see jump events as well.

i'd be more will to say some more last tech that they can reverse engineer much like the loroi amplifiers were.

Voitan
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Voitan »

When the time comes to give us the demonstration or explanation for how and why psychic powers work, or interact with Outsider's real space, how are we going to subvert this when it comes time to reveal why Humanity has Lotai?

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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by NOMAD »

to answer your question Voitan.

probably the answer to how Loroi telepathy works and how Human Lotai is done ( and any interaction with the other races) might play into a greater story of Outsider.

as well it won't be revealed until maybe Chapter 4-5, so that provides alot of time to refine the mechanics of telepathy functionality
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Darth Cloaked Guy
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Darth Cloaked Guy »

Am I the only one who suspects that the "Far Sensing Device" was just the Loroi being somewhat coy about their psionic abilities?

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Trantor
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by Trantor »

Darth Cloaked Guy wrote:Am I the only one who suspects that the "Far Sensing Device" was just the Loroi being somewhat coy about their psionic abilities?
Seems so.
Loroi have same sort of "amplifiers" for farsensing, but also for telekinesis, Fireblades "headset" for example.



BTW: Will we ever see Fireblade speak?
sapere aude.

discord
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Re: Farsense and Sensibility.

Post by discord »

trantor: probably when she wants to kill someone and is VERY angry about it....

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