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The end of the war Thread 
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Post Re: The end of the war Thread
discord wrote:
karst: nothing that i know of puts us 'close to soia', what we are is the template they created the loroi from.

and those things some would like from us because of this is simply existing, since it proves the loroi are not soia themselves....which will piss off some loroi.


Agreed.
Karst45 wrote:
Mr.Tucker wrote:
2) what could the TCA give them in return
Obviously all while trying to keep the big political actors in the dark.


If SF show told me something is that in a way to gain superior power, shaddy people would do anything.


I'm thinking of shady dealings aswell . We could give the Arekka and Mannandi the possibility of setting up new colonies near human space, away from Loroi scrutiny (no idea how we could get the settlers here though, without the Space Smurfs finding out). The Nissek are more problematic: we don't have anything they want (maybe some fine earth cuisine? stuff they don't have? chocolate? burgers? human meals, as intriguing as it sounds, are a bit too gruesome for this story). The Historians BARELY gave the Loroi some tech, and that's only due to existential threat. Also their tech was way too advanced for the Loroi, let alone the humans.

Username wrote:
TrashMan wrote:
How will the war end?

Loroi or Umiak will not be pleased with us and they will send a fleet to wipe us out.

Just when all hope seems lost, humanity will come to the revolutionary discovery of tactical jumps. With the ability to jump right behind the enemy fleet, the laughable mass drivers become the most feared weapon in the galaxy, as the entire attacking fleet is obliterated.

Alarmed by this new development, the Loroi and Umiak ally to combat humanity and steamrole over us. Humans secretly send sleep ships with the knowledge of the new drives far way, while the Umiak and Loroi being a new peaceful co-existence...that lasts until the first accidental genocide attempt.

laughing my ass off. :lol:
Though it does make one ponder what the application of tactical jump capability would mean in the long term. Would we use it as a bargaining chip for floater drivers or pulse cannons ?



Mr.Tucker wrote:
Ok, i got a nagging idea. Since the Loroi would presumably hesitate to trade technology with the TCA (mistrust and such), and so would the other species of the Union (to not attract the ire of the blue babes), wouldn't it be possible to trade tech with the Nissek or another non-aligned species? (Mannandi, Arekka) . Two problems would be evident:
1) access: their territories are far/inaccessible
2) what could the TCA give them in return
Obviously all while trying to keep the big political actors in the dark.


Under the table tech dealing would be the the most beneficial outcome of Alien contact with Humanity. However you overlook one detail about the Mannandi and the Arekka. Both are under extreme scrutiny by the Loroi (as in quarantined and heavily restricted).
Humanity's hopes for tech uplifting (barring loroi influence) lie primarily with the historians and maybe the Nissek. However I have no idea what we could possibly give them in return besides Orgus trade routes. I personally think Humaity is better suited with Umiak tech, but that seems to be an unfriendly idea around here. :oops:
Some members of the Loroi Alliance might simply help us because of our distinct similarity to the Loroi so as to undermine the Loroi authority.


I agree with the TCA being better off with Umiak tech, however that seems very hard to acquire barring an alliance (slavery). Apart from the Barsam (who don't have too much weapons tech, probably only drive tech), I don't think the weaker-willed Pipolsid and Neridi would offer us any help. And they are ALL under scrutiny (Loroi telepathy, remember?). The Nissek, and Mannandi are more off limits (except maybe the Arekka).

EDIT: The Loroi don't need to improve our tech, cos we won't be fighting alongside them for a while. It would take too long to assimilate new technologies, then build up our military, and the blue-skins are stretched too thin to just give us new ships. Our positioning is what they'd want as a staging area. Maybe they could up-tech our industry to produce stuff they need like, idk, particle cannon plasma or something. Maybe devote our industry to producing those pesky, short-supply missles they need to even the odds.


Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:44 am
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Post Re: The end of the war Thread
With what we know so far, the logical conclusion is that Humanity won't survive until the end of the war. We have nothing significant in the way of technology to offer that might bring the war to and end in favor of the Loroi. The only thing about humans that's significant is that we are either immune to or able to mask sanzai. That potential threat must be dealt with swiftly. Once the Loroi have assessed us and know this, the logical thing for the Loroi to do in this case is containment and eradication (if nothing else, to keep Humanity or kidnapped/enslaved humans out of Umiak hands). Our defense tech is low enough that they could likely accomplish this without extending themselves so thin that the Umiak would press an advantage. Even if we were to offer to ally with the Loroi and agree to "stay out of the way," the threat isn't really any less, depending on what sort of coercion or bioengineering the Umiak might be able to do to humans.

CJSF

P.S.
I find it funny that Firefox flags Loroi as a spelling error, but Umiak gets a pass (yes, I know it's a real word).


Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:52 am
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Post Re: The end of the war Thread
cacambo43 wrote:
I find it funny that Firefox flags Loroi as a spelling error, but Umiak gets a pass (yes, I know it's a real word).

Technically loroi is a "real word" too, though a bit more obscure. The loros (plural loroi) was a long scarf draped over the left arm that was an important part of the Byzantine Emperor's regalia.

Image

The umiak, for any who don't know, is an Eskimo boat, a larger relative of the kayak.

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Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:22 am
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Post Re: The end of the war Thread
Mr.Tucker wrote:
EDIT: The Loroi don't need to improve our tech, cos we won't be fighting alongside them for a while. It would take too long to assimilate new technologies, then build up our military, and the blue-skins are stretched too thin to just give us new ships. Our positioning is what they'd want as a staging area. Maybe they could up-tech our industry to produce stuff they need like, idk, particle cannon plasma or something. Maybe devote our industry to producing those pesky, short-supply missles they need to even the odds.


Our long-term value to them is in our fast technology gain, it will cost them relatively little to help us tech up, just a handful of scientists and engineers and some (to them) obsolete hardware in the near term, in the long-term they'll need to part with some newer stuff, but not a lot. They won't need to rebuild our entire economy themselves or give us fleets of ships to study, that's not really the case.

cacambo43 wrote:
With what we know so far, the logical conclusion is that Humanity won't survive until the end of the war. We have nothing significant in the way of technology to offer that might bring the war to and end in favor of the Loroi. The only thing about humans that's significant is that we are either immune to or able to mask sanzai. That potential threat must be dealt with swiftly. Once the Loroi have assessed us and know this, the logical thing for the Loroi to do in this case is containment and eradication (if nothing else, to keep Humanity or kidnapped/enslaved humans out of Umiak hands). Our defense tech is low enough that they could likely accomplish this without extending themselves so thin that the Umiak would press an advantage. Even if we were to offer to ally with the Loroi and agree to "stay out of the way," the threat isn't really any less, depending on what sort of coercion or bioengineering the Umiak might be able to do to humans.


The Loroi aren't casually genocidal, if we are not in danger of falling under the sway of the Umiak and we aren't constantly fighting them the Loroi won't just kill us all out of hand. If they have military control (meaning our military is small and/or under their direct command) then we won't pose a serious large-scale threat. It is not logical for them to eradicate an economy as large as ours when they are desperately stretched already. In the short-term we can provide marginal economic relief, in the mid-term once we spool up to a war economy with the tech gap closing we will be a major complement to them (though it's likely by that point the war will be decided, though probably not OVER). Once we've reached tech parity our value will be immense if we're able to continue with our historical tech rate, it's likely the Loroi will be able to match or exceed the Historians with us on their side in relatively short order.

The cost for all of this is political and social independence and probably a few dozen Loroi sacrificed to the altar of celebrity status. We take a few of them and make them famous actors, authors, musicians and so on, the population can be manipulated into supporting the Loroi without much fuss and then the Loroi will have a steadfast and enormously valuable ally. It IS true that humans will a pain in the ass from time to time as we'll also, once we become more common in their areas, be very good spies, assassins and saboteurs against the Loroi due to the lotai, but then the Empire can use us in that capacity as well.

Arioch wrote:
Technically loroi is a "real word" too, though a bit more obscure. The loros (plural loroi) was a long scarf draped over the left arm that was an important part of the Byzantine Emperor's regalia.


The umiak, for any who don't know, is an Eskimo boat, a larger relative of the kayak.


Did you pick them because of that or did you make them up then realize they were real afterwards?


Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:16 pm
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Post Re: The end of the war Thread
fredgiblet wrote:
Did you pick them because of that or did you make them up then realize they were real afterwards?

They were chosen because of how they sound. I looked them up, of course, as it is wise to do with all fictional names... nearly every word you can make up will mean something in some language, and it's good to check to see if a word is better-known than you think it is, or offensive, etc.

I liked Loroi because it evokes both lorelei (German mermaid/siren) and le roi (French "the king"). I liked Umiak because it gave the sense of an alien, perhaps insectoid race without completely falling into the (Klackon/Klaxxi/Klick/Klikiss) rut.

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Post Re: The end of the war Thread
So, here's something others might not have realized about the Historians. A long time ago, the idea of a group or race meeting us was proposed and thought about, and the general outcome was thought to have basically been the equivalent of when the exiled British settlers made it to the east coast of north america. The native cultures would be completely wiped out, they would lose everything about themselves that was theirs, and if the group/race/whatever was hostile, we'd be little more then slaves to them.

The Historians have their own little pocket, and apparently shared tech with the Loroi when it was clear the Umiak would kill/enslave them without help (although this was only after the Historians themselves were invaded, showing the Umiak were a pretty aggressive race). What this shows is that the Historians are do have something to give to the Loroi, and that they are most likely advanced to a degree beyond the Loroi.

They're obviously not omniscient, because they didn't predict the invasion, and they most likely don't have a large standing military (as the invasion at least got within their space), but they have something.

The Historians, give the want, could most likely end the war, but they may not want to dick around in others' cultures unless necessary. Possibly they don't want to stunt Loroi growth by acting, unless it's clear that the Loroi wont benefit from the continuation of the war.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:14 pm
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Post Re: The end of the war Thread
hi hi

It is my impression/suspicion that the Historians don't want to give their technological advantage away to the Loroi, because the Loroi are pretty aggressive too, and they don't want the Loroi to win the war with the capability to turn and conquer the Historians immediately afterwards. Their technological edge gives them some leverage when negotiating with the Loroi.


Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:13 pm
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Post Re: The end of the war Thread
Actually, it was my impression that the Loroi couldn't fully replicate the Historian plasma weaponry.


Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:14 am
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Post Re: The end of the war Thread
SageofTimes wrote:
What this shows is that the Historians are do have something to give to the Loroi, and that they are most likely advanced to a degree beyond the Loroi.


As Southern Cross stated they are advanced enough that the Loroi weren't able to replicate their weapons when they did share. They were able to make use of them, but not to the full extent that the Historians are able to use them.


Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:31 am
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Post Re: The end of the war Thread
Username wrote:
Mr.Tucker wrote:
Ok, i got a nagging idea. Since the Loroi would presumably hesitate to trade technology with the TCA (mistrust and such), and so would the other species of the Union (to not attract the ire of the blue babes), wouldn't it be possible to trade tech with the Nissek or another non-aligned species? (Mannandi, Arekka) . Two problems would be evident:
1) access: their territories are far/inaccessible
2) what could the TCA give them in return
Obviously all while trying to keep the big political actors in the dark.


Under the table tech dealing would be the the most beneficial outcome of Alien contact with Humanity. However you overlook one detail about the Mannandi and the Arekka. Both are under extreme scrutiny by the Loroi (as in quarantined and heavily restricted).
Humanity's hopes for tech uplifting (barring loroi influence) lie primarily with the historians and maybe the Nissek. However I have no idea what we could possibly give them in return besides Orgus trade routes. I personally think Humaity is better suited with Umiak tech, but that seems to be an unfriendly idea around here. :oops:
Some members of the Loroi Alliance might simply help us because of our distinct similarity to the Loroi so as to undermine the Loroi authority.



I can see the Barsam wanting to send troubadour-clerics on evangelical missions to Humanity to learn about us and take the Word of their religion to us. And I can see them as wanting to help uplift us by giving us/showing us how to use the Loroi Union advance tech.


Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:22 am
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