[Fan Fiction] Looking forward to the Mirror (Completed)

[Zakharra]

And I will see your fictional conflict and raise you the Vietnam and the American Revolutionary War. RazorOne I know it's a fictional sci-fi fan fiction but you will do your points more credit by using example from real life and not from fiction. There are conflicts throughout human history that went well for the higher TL faction, and conflicts in which the opposite is also true.

The problem with that is with the American Revolutionary War and Vietnam, the Americans and NVA/Viet Cong both had ample outside support to fight the war. The Continental army would have had a much harder time fighting, and very well could have lost without French support. As would the Viet Cong/NVA would have lost against the US military if they hadn't had support from China and the USSR. The afghans would have very likely lost if the US hadn't been supplying the mujaheddin with RPGs, surface to air missiles and other technological goodies that helped them resist the Soviets much more effectively.

Against a foe with as much of an overwhelming edge in technology as the Loroi have, Humanity would flat out -lose- any conflict with them. No questions asked. Even with Umiak help, Humanity would lose heavily. If we were not destroyed/wiped out, we'd be essentially slaves under the very heavy hand of the Umiak. Remember that even to their most trusted allies, the Umiak impose ruinous economic burdens. Heavy enough to strain all resources and economic systems, and incidentally usually wrecking the environment in the process.

See there we go.

Also now that I reflect on the matter, I would have killed all the Loroi nabbed what tech I could and run. They're just going out of their way to be as difficult as possible.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

You'd better hope that the Loroi never find out what you did either or vengeance would come looking.

I do not see what your issue is; the Loroi are NOT making this as difficult as possible. They are going out of their way to avoid any diplomatic snafus. How do I know this? The humans are still alive! Remember that at initial contact, ALL of the Loroi thought this was a trick of the Umiak. Their normal reaction would have been to kill the 'trick' and deal with the consequences, if any, afterwards. Humanity is there to initiate contact, not start an interstellar war we would lose before we even started.

Right now both sides are talking, not shooting (a very important distinction), and the Loroi are being very up front with what they can do (more or less). It is setting the tone for what future diplomatic meetings can work with since it's impossible to take the telepathy and telekinesis out of the Loroi. The way you were wanting the humans to act is the humans being as difficult as possible for no reason other than to be difficult./just because. Humanity needs information, not bodies. This means they have to talk and to deal with the fact they are speaking to an alien civilization who would have different views on first contacts. ie, what we might consider acceptable, they might not. The cultural differences are going to have to be ignored for now, just so they can formally establish diplomatic ties. Razor One points that out very well (and you agreed with him). For some reason you seem to think that Humanity should be looking for a fight rather than trying to avoid one.

[Grayhome]

Wow, I'm still getting responses to this? Awesome, ok let's see what we've got here...

The problem with that is with the American Revolutionary War and Vietnam, the Americans and NVA/Viet Cong both had ample outside support to fight the war. The Continental army would have had a much harder time fighting, and very well could have lost without French support. As would the Viet Cong/NVA would have lost against the US military if they hadn't had support from China and the USSR. The afghans would have very likely lost if the US hadn't been supplying the mujaheddin with RPGs, surface to air missiles and other technological goodies that helped them resist the Soviets much more effectively.

Yeah. It sure is a shame that another technologically advanced society isn't around to give us advanced tech to fight the Loroi.

And has a reason to give it to us.

Like being at war with the Loroi.

...

Even with Umiak help, Humanity would lose heavily. If we were not destroyed/wiped out, we'd be essentially slaves under the very heavy hand of the Umiak. Remember that even to their most trusted allies, the Umiak impose ruinous economic burdens. Heavy enough to strain all resources and economic systems, and incidentally usually wrecking the environment in the process.

Wait. wait.

Wasn't your entire first paragraph devoted to saying that there is no one else that can give us tech to fight the Loroi, if it came to war?
But in response to that second point (which contradicts the first) one of the main plot elements demonstrated thus far is that humans are amazing diplomats. I'm fairly sure that human diplomatic wizardry can work out a deal with the Umiak that's good all around.

You'd better hope that the Loroi never find out what you did either or vengeance would come looking.

Given the quality of soldier the Loroi have demonstrated thus far my response to that would be that the Loroi have much more to fear from even a TL 9 humanity that humans have of the Loroi. I am simply not impressed with the Loroi have thus far demonstrated. Kinda disappointing really, but I would expect that going on 25 years of constant battle the quality of warrior the Loroi can field would drop dramatically.

I do not see what your issue is; the Loroi are NOT making this as difficult as possible. They are going out of their way to avoid any diplomatic snafus. How do I know this? The humans are still alive!

... well. That's a... that's a pretty low bar... to set...

...

I'm just going to let that statement stand on it's own merits. Moving right along.

Right now both sides are talking, not shooting (a very important distinction), and the Loroi are being very up front with what they can do (more or less).

... Zakharra you seem not to understand the delicate and incredibly volatile nature of international relations. The Loroi diplomat has just informed the Human diplomat that she has brought weapons to the diplomatic meeting that can destroy armored vehicles. That is an automatic fail in the area of diplomatic relations, with the general response of: "Welp, you've just stated you have invisible, intangible guns that you have pointed at the back of our heads at all times. We're done with you. No dialogue is possible while being conducted under the threat of deadly force. We can't even begin to start a peaceful and honest dialogue under these conditions."

I've seen a few responses to my comments along the lines of "Oh it's fine that the Loroi brought anti-tank weapons to the talks, they're in the other room. It's fine, they have some metal sheeting separating them and that makes it ok somehow."

I will remind everyone that the Outsider Insider article detailing Psychokinetic abilities clearly states that such abilities can and have been used, frequently and to great effect, without the user being in direct eye contact with the target. Psychokinetic abilities bypass bulkheads, armor and flesh alike and saying the user's is outsider the room is... well it's just a none issue. Excusing the Loroi for bringing those warriors instead of non-psychokinetic warriors armed with blasters (which would still be a bad idea, just less of one) is just a silly defense of it's use in this situation.

Bakin' a Father's Day cake for my pappy, more later, maybe.

[dragoongfa]

@Grayhome

I would like to point out that since humans are invisible to sensing then using Telekinesis on them without a field of view is impossible and considering how even today popping one's head out of cover to take a look is suicide, the humans have almost fully nullified telekinesis as a weapon without doing anything.

Then in regards to tech sharing, so far the insider doesn't say anything that the Umiak have given any tech to their subservient races and out of all the known ones, only the Morat are known to still have stand alone fleets although greatly depleted due to casualties and heavy Umiak taxation which doesn't allow for casualty replenishment. We don't know what the Umiak may ask but I am sure that humanity won't get much in the way of favorable treatment out of them. What humanity does know is that the Umiak failed to protect the Tithric despite the Tithric being right next to them and that the Loroi hate Umiak allies as much as the Umiak themselves. Matveyev's crew have also seen what the Loroi do to their enemies first hand before meeting the Loroi; then there are the Mannadi who are problematic to telepathy themselves and what happened to them when they pissed off the Loroi.

Humanity fills one of two criteria of Loroi ire, if it fills both you might as well paint a 'KILL THIS LOROI' sign on every human planet because the Loroi will come for humanity without any mercy. In order for this not to happen they have two choices; either they offer anything and everything to the Umiak, hoping that they will provide adequate defense to humanity or immediately ally with the Loroi who despite their genocidal tendencies are known to treat their friends well while sharing tech with them.

I think that the above has been adequately explained in the story.

The rest will be covered in the story in due time.

EDIT: I will also leave this here in regards to telekinesis and other superpowers:

http://grrlpowercomic.com/archives/1758

[Grayhome]

I would like to point out that since humans are invisible to sensing then using Telekinesis on them without a field of view is impossible and considering how even today popping one's head out of cover to take a look is suicide, the humans have almost fully nullified telekinesis as a weapon without doing anything.

I believe Arioch has already stated that psychokinetics can use their telekinetic abilities to "feel around" for targets to use their abilities upon; or that the Loroi in the room can simply triangulate to the Loroi in the hall where the humans are in relation to herself but if that's the way you want to take the story, ok.

Then in regards to tech sharing, so far the insider doesn't say anything that the Umiak have given any tech to their subservient races and out of all the known ones, only the Morat are known to still have stand alone fleets although greatly depleted due to casualties and heavy Umiak taxation which doesn't allow for casualty replenishment. We don't know what the Umiak may ask but I am sure that humanity won't get much in the way of favorable treatment out of them.

I didn't say it wouldn't be difficult dragoonfa. I'm just saying that the humans depicted so far are diplomat wizards.

Humanity fills one of two criteria of Loroi ire, if it fills both you might as well paint a 'KILL THIS LOROI' sign on every human planet because the Loroi will come for humanity without any mercy. In order for this not to happen they have two choices; either they offer anything and everything to the Umiak, hoping that they will provide adequate defense to humanity or immediately ally with the Loroi who despite their genocidal tendencies are known to treat their friends well while sharing tech with them.

I see little evidence supporting the theory that the Loroi treat their friends well (by any widely accepted definition of the of the word "well"). I would define the relationships that the Loroi enjoy with their non-Loroi allies as parasitic. The Loroi use aliens to do things that they are too lazy, too stupid, or too arrogant to do themselves and offer a certain degree of incompetent protection to their alien "friends" for those reasons and those reasons only. I refuse to qualify that as "friendship" of any kind. That the Umiak treat their "friends" worse by comparison is not particularly endearing the Loroi to me as it seems to be to other members of the forum.

That the Loroi lowered their guard before the current war and allowed the Umiak to catch them by surprise really screams at me that they are not capable of, nor are they interested in, protecting anyone. They're far too busy admiring their own reflections in the mirror and playing with their hair. They have supremely failed in their duties and they own that now, and all of the deaths and destruction that failure has resulted in.

I see little evidence that the Loroi have any real friends, even amongst their own species. From what I gather from the fluff, in early Loroi history one Loroi faction made an expedition off world, nabbed some advanced psi-tech from a dead civilization and started murder/enslaving every other Loroi faction it could find. Then, once all opposing Loroi factions were murder/enslaved, they started expanding that outwards. There is a lot of bad blood boiling around in the pointy ear's empire stew, and the only thing keeping the lid on it is the threat of violence and fear; also the "promotion" of political undesirables to the frontline in rickety old tubs that haven't seen upgrades or refits in ages (see the Tempest for examples of this).

I strongly assume that humanity will exploit all of these points later on in the comic to devastating effect. I don't really expect the current Loroi empire to survive it's contact with humanity or even that it deserves too. I also don't expect that the Loroi will long remain the sole wielders of psionic abilities.

If they even are at the time of me writing this.

There are only bad option and worse options here, that I can see.

[dragoongfa]

I believe Arioch has already stated that psychokinetics can use their telekinetic abilities to "feel around" for targets to use their abilities upon; or that the Loroi in the room can simply triangulate to the Loroi in the hall where the humans are in relation to herself but if that's the way you want to take the story, ok.

That would be wasting time in a combat situation, I imagine something like a blind person snooping around with their hands; just a little bit quicker. In a combat environment with lots of chaotic movement it wouldn't mean much. Maybe it would be of use in a search and destroy mission where the opposition is in hiding.

I didn't say it wouldn't be difficult dragoonfa. I'm just saying that the humans depicted so far are diplomat wizards.

They are the best of the Scout corps, trained for first contact situations while they were drilled non stop in order to know what to do and what the stakes are.

EDIT2: Still just humans though.

I see little evidence supporting the theory that the Loroi treat their friends well (by any widely accepted definition of the of the word "well"). I would define the relationships that the Loroi enjoy with their non-Loroi allies as parasitic. The Loroi use aliens to do things that they are too lazy, too stupid, or too arrogant to do themselves and offer a certain degree of incompetent protection to their alien "friends" for those reasons and those reasons only. I refuse to qualify that as "friendship" of any kind. That the Umiak treat their "friends" worse by comparison is not particularly endearing the Loroi to me as it seems to be to other members of the forum.

The Neridi, Barsam and Pipolsid are expanding on new planets, they are represented on the Assembly and have a lot of Loroi industrial capability outsourced to them. The Golim are under a weird position, nominally independent/union members but they are telepathically mesmerized when close to Loroi; the Loroi have taken measures to limit this. The Delrias attacked the Loroi early on and lost. Although occupied they have been left to tend their own internal affairs as long as they don't cause trouble to the Loroi, they have been so cooperative that they are allowed to send delegates to the assembly even if they don't have official power. The Arekka were at war with the Loroi and although a faction is still nominally independent they are considered friendly to the Loroi. The Mannadi wars started when the Mannadi attacked the Pipolsid and the Neridi who were Loroi allies and the Loroi came to their rescue. They Mannadi ended with them being occupied by the Loroi but highly uncooperative with a widespread terrorist actions against the Loroi. The Loroi killed most of them and quarantined the rest.

Out of all of the above the Loroi have never started a war, they or their allies were attacked and the Loroi won the war (with the exception of the 3rd Mannadi war which the Loroi started in order to knock out a proven hostile power). Out of all the species they conquered, the Loroi have left one with nominal autonomy, the other is split like Ireland and the third constantly pissed off the Loroi until they snapped.

Compare and contrast the above with how the Umiak overtax their allies, failing to protect them and their Umiak supremacist attitudes.

That the Loroi lowered their guard before the current war and allowed the Umiak to catch them by surprise really screams at me that they are not capable of, nor are they interested in, protecting anyone. They're far too busy admiring their own reflections in the mirror and playing with their hair. They have supremely failed in their duties and they own that now, and all of the deaths and destruction that failure has resulted in.

The USSR was attacked by the Germans by a surprise attack that the Soviets didn't want to see coming. The Germans crushed all Soviet armies in their wake, taking millions as prisoners, they raped and pillaged at will, they were lauded as heroes in the Baltics and East Ukraine and ended up with surrounding Leningrad and being a few dozen kilometers away from Moscow.

The USA miscalculated Japanese intentions and didn't expect that the Japs will choose war. They ended up with the attack of Pearl Harbor, losing the Philippines (a US protectorate with US troops occupying it) and seeing the Japs win battle after battle.

With your logic the safe bet for a small Latin American or African nation would be to ally itself with the Axis. We know how WW2 ended and we know that German and Japanese propaganda painted their adversaries as degenerate cowards who preferred an easy life over war and they would be overrun quickly.

I see little evidence that the Loroi have any real friends, even amongst their own species. From what I gather from the fluff, in early Loroi history one Loroi faction made an expedition off world, nabbed some advanced psi-tech from a dead civilization and started murder/enslaving every other Loroi faction it could find. Then, once all opposing Loroi factions were murder/enslaved, they started expanding that outwards. There is a lot of bad blood boiling around in the pointy ear's empire stew, and the only thing keeping the lid on it is the threat of violence and fear; also the "promotion" of political undesirables to the frontline in rickety old tubs that haven't seen upgrades or refits in ages (see the Tempest for examples of this).

See above for how the Loroi treated aliens and the murder/enslaving of fellow Loroi part is a misunderstanding from your part. The Loroi loathe slavery and they didn't massacre their subdued Loroi adversaries, the Loroi to Loroi wars were 'honorable' with armies fighting each other on the open field, the loser accepted defeat and the winner didn't massacre civilians for sport. As for Stillstorm and Tempest, I don't think that Stillstorm ever wanted to be anywhere else than the front lines and I don't think that Tempest hasn't received refits.


I think that you are basing all of the above in misunderstanding the Insider and the miscellaneous Loroi questions thread.

I strongly assume that humanity will exploit all of these points later on in the comic to devastating effect. I don't really expect the current Loroi empire to survive it's contact with humanity or that even that it deserves too. I also don't expect that the Loroi will long remain the sole wielders of psionic abilities.

If they even are at the time of me writing this.

There are only bad option and worse options here, that I can see.

We shall see what we shall see in the story.

EDIT: Damn, wrong formating
EDIT2: Need to stop writing stuff after hours with barely any sleep.

[Grayhome]

... I honestly can't tell if you are even trying anymore dragoonfa.

[dragoongfa]

... I honestly can't tell if you are even trying anymore dragoonfa.

Time will tell.

[Grayhome]

Time will tell.

I certainly hope so, I guess we'll have to wait out the next few decades and see.

[Siber]

All I'll say is that the kind of atrocities and evidence of Loroi brutality that you keep pointing to, Grayhome, are the kinds of things that you tend to find in the history of any nation on earth with much sway in world events, and the political motivations of Stillstorm's assignment also tend to crop up a lot in well documented wars, even for countries that went on to win and be stable for centuries afterwards. I very much doubt that your implicit assumption that the Umiak are relatively noble once you get past the bug exterior would be borne out if we had more details on their history and internal machinations. Powerful nations and powerful people basically never get that way by being nice.

[Grayhome]

All I'll say is that the kind of atrocities and evidence of Loroi brutality that you keep pointing to, Grayhome, are the kinds of things that you tend to find in the history of any nation on earth with much sway in world events, and the political motivations of Stillstorm's assignment also tend to crop up a lot in well documented wars, even for countries that went on to win and be stable for centuries afterwards.

Yea. That's what worries me.

I very much doubt that your implicit assumption that the Umiak are relatively noble once you get past the bug exterior would be borne out if we had more details on their history and internal machinations. Powerful nations and powerful people basically never get that way by being nice.

*sigh*

I never assumed that. To my recollection I've never assumed anything even close to that. Humanity's got bad options and worse options, is my opinion. To clarify my opinion, humanity gets the wondrous choice between a dangerously treacherous ally, or a dangerously incompetent ally. You get to decide which is which, and which is better.

[Zakharra]

Wow, I'm still getting responses to this? Awesome, ok let's see what we've got here...

The problem with that is with the American Revolutionary War and Vietnam, the Americans and NVA/Viet Cong both had ample outside support to fight the war. The Continental army would have had a much harder time fighting, and very well could have lost without French support. As would the Viet Cong/NVA would have lost against the US military if they hadn't had support from China and the USSR. The afghans would have very likely lost if the US hadn't been supplying the mujaheddin with RPGs, surface to air missiles and other technological goodies that helped them resist the Soviets much more effectively.

Yeah. It sure is a shame that another technologically advanced society isn't around to give us advanced tech to fight the Loroi.

And has a reason to give it to us.

Like being at war with the Loroi.

...

The problem is the Umiak are just as bad as the Loroi. The cure would be just as damhaging, if not worse for humanity than the Loroi are. At least with the Loroi, we'd be just dead. Under the Umiak, we'd be slaves, and very likely many humans would be dissected and experimented on to find out why we are immune to Loroi telepathy and far sense. Under the Umiak, slavery is the best option humanity would face. They do not treat anyone well. Allies just remain alive, which putting pretty much all of their economy to serve the Umiak. They are like chitin bound Borg in a sense. Besides, it's extremely likely the Umiak couldn't come to humanity's aid (never mind what ever form the aid would be) fast enough. All it takes is one Loroi Strike group and they could wipe out humanity in less than a month.

Even with Umiak help, Humanity would lose heavily. If we were not destroyed/wiped out, we'd be essentially slaves under the very heavy hand of the Umiak. Remember that even to their most trusted allies, the Umiak impose ruinous economic burdens. Heavy enough to strain all resources and economic systems, and incidentally usually wrecking the environment in the process.

Wait. wait.

Wasn't your entire first paragraph devoted to saying that there is no one else that can give us tech to fight the Loroi, if it came to war?
But in response to that second point (which contradicts the first) one of the main plot elements demonstrated thus far is that humans are amazing diplomats. I'm fairly sure that human diplomatic wizardry can work out a deal with the Umiak that's good all around.

You're not understanding what I wrote. There's no one we humans would be able to have supply us that would help us. With the Umiak, Humanity becomes their slaves. They would NOT leave an independent Humanity. They would come down on us with a single battlegroup and enforce their will and harsh economic demands on us.

You'd better hope that the Loroi never find out what you did either or vengeance would come looking.

Given the quality of soldier the Loroi have demonstrated thus far my response to that would be that the Loroi have much more to fear from even a TL 9 humanity that humans have of the Loroi. I am simply not impressed with the Loroi have thus far demonstrated. Kinda disappointing really, but I would expect that going on 25 years of constant battle the quality of warrior the Loroi can field would drop dramatically.

They are doing damned good considering the Loroi are outnumbered by several factors. Humanity would have been overrun long ago. It's only the far sense and technological superiority (a slight edge, but its enough for the Loroi to stay in range) has let the Loroi survive at all.

I do not see what your issue is; the Loroi are NOT making this as difficult as possible. They are going out of their way to avoid any diplomatic snafus. How do I know this? The humans are still alive!

... well. That's a... that's a pretty low bar... to set...

It's Loroi space, the humans have come to them to make a treaty so it behooves us to play by -their- rules. Their space, their rules. how hard is that for you to understand?

...

I'm just going to let that statement stand on it's own merits. Moving right along.

Right now both sides are talking, not shooting (a very important distinction), and the Loroi are being very up front with what they can do (more or less).

... Zakharra you seem not to understand the delicate and incredibly volatile nature of international relations. The Loroi diplomat has just informed the Human diplomat that she has brought weapons to the diplomatic meeting that can destroy armored vehicles. That is an automatic fail in the area of diplomatic relations, with the general response of: "Welp, you've just stated you have invisible, intangible guns that you have pointed at the back of our heads at all times. We're done with you. No dialogue is possible while being conducted under the threat of deadly force. We can't even begin to start a peaceful and honest dialogue under these conditions."

I've seen a few responses to my comments along the lines of "Oh it's fine that the Loroi brought anti-tank weapons to the talks, they're in the other room. It's fine, they have some metal sheeting separating them and that makes it ok somehow."

I will remind everyone that the Outsider Insider article detailing Psychokinetic abilities clearly states that such abilities can and have been used, frequently and to great effect, without the user being in direct eye contact with the target. Psychokinetic abilities bypass bulkheads, armor and flesh alike and saying the user's is outsider the room is... well it's just a none issue. Excusing the Loroi for bringing those warriors instead of non-psychokinetic warriors armed with blasters (which would still be a bad idea, just less of one) is just a silly defense of it's use in this situation.

How is that even a problem? Remember the humans are coming to them. To their courtyard (so to speak). We're trying NOT to appear a threat and it's impossible for the Loroi to remove telekinesis from them selves. This is also a warship that has suffered serious damage. It's not like they have a lot of options and the Loroi are doing the best with the resources they have at hand. Which means having TK 'armed' Loroi in the meeting. and since the humans are allowed to have soldiers in the meeting, what is so offensive to you about the Loroi having a few TK 'armed' individuals in the meeting too? Is humanity supposed to have an advantage over the Loroi?

You seem to be saying that it's the Loroi that should be lining up under human set rules of diplomacy rather than the other way around. If the Loroi had approached Humanity on their home worlds, then they would have to more or less conform to humanity's diplomatic rules (once they know of them and diplomacy will make exceptions for foreign customs, so don't discount humans demanding that no TK armed Loroi be allowed in any future diplomatic meeting/discussion).

And you keep forgetting or ignoring one very important thing: it's THEIR courtyard, not ours. WE came to THEM. So it's their rules that will determine what happens, and if TK armed Loroi regularly sit in on meetings with the other races of the Loroi Union, then why should humanity get an exception? So far you've shown no good reason why the Loroi should bow to our wishes and be offended at being shown what TK abilities can do. By informing the humans, the Loroi was being frank and open. It was a way to show some of her cards so there would be no misunderstanding later. Besides, what's going to happen when other Loroi with TK abilities show up? Are they going to have to be forbidden from any interaction with humans and human diplomats?

Instead you're acting like it's a huge insult and the human reaction should be; "Welp, you've just stated you have invisible, intangible guns that you have pointed at the back of our heads at all times. We're done with you. No dialogue is possible while being conducted under the threat of deadly force. We can't even begin to start a peaceful and honest dialogue under these conditions." Doing that would get humanity put on the 'Kill ASAP' list pdq. Honestly, you come across as someone who wants humanity to be looking for a fight and a reason to make outrageous demands. It's like you want a reasons, any reason, to reject an alliance with the Loroi, and will take anything as a slight to be used as leverage to make outrageous demands.

[Sweforce]

Keep in mind that Silverspear is a warship on a combat mission and a destroyer at that. As such it is a somewhat small warship so to expect that they even have an diplomatic officer onboard is a bit much to ask. A large percentage of the crew is dead and judging from the captains condition, many of the survivors are probably severely injured so they need to work with what they have, as such an intelligence officer are probably the closest thing they have for a diplomat. To expect that the captain herself do it is just not possible since she isn't only grievously wounded but also suffers from a mental breakdown. I believe they could be allowed some slack here, especially if Shadowcloud explains the situation.

[Argron]

People, we are being trolled.

[Grayhome]

People, we are being trolled.

Oh no, no no no no no. I am an accredited political scientist and I am telling all of you truthfully and honestly that what the Loroi have done so far amount to war crimes, and that we (the United States) have gone to war over far lesser offences.

I can only imagine what China/Russia's response would be if their diplomats were subjected to similar circumstances.

[Zakharra]

People, we are being trolled.

Oh no, no no no no no. I am an accredited political scientist and I am telling all of you truthfully and honestly that what the Loroi have done so far amount to war crimes, and that we (the United States) have gone to war over far lesser offences.

I can only imagine what China/Russia's response would be if their diplomats were subjected to similar circumstances.

There's several problems with that analogy though. We -know- Russia and China's capabilities. They are human, the Loroi aren't. Humanity knows next to nothing about the Loroi and is desperately trying to make up that lack of information, with the added /bonus/ of we have to align with one side or we will be overrun. The West is also at or above the Russians/Chinese in some areas of technology. With the Loroi and Umiak, we're way behind.

You're an accredited political scientist? Of what school? The North Korea School of political Science and Diplomacy? You need to bear some things in mind when you are considering how the human Scouts should/are likely to react to the situation at hand. 1: we went looking for the Loroi to establish diplomatic contact and possibly/hopefully make a treaty of alliance with them. They didn't come to us, we went looking for them. That means we're the supplicants, not the Loroi. This suggests we don't start off any diplomatic contact by getting offended and making outrageous demands just because the Loroi officer told us and demonstrated her TK abilities so we would be aware of them and not be caught by surprise if she hadn't mentioned them! After all it's not like the Loroi with the TK abilities can remove them and the Loroi still don't necessarily trust the humans yet, so I fail to see why them having guards there when the humans clearly have soldiers at the meeting too, is an issue. This is two military units meeting in an emergency situation. Things aren't going to be By the Book on either side. So allowances have to be made.
2: Humanity is seriously outclassed in every aspect technologically and economically. The Loroi and Umiak are the interstellar superpowers (USA) and the six worlds of Humanity are a poor third world nation that can barely keep its somewhat advanced planes flying (Sudan or some shithole nation that is semi dangerous to the locals, but not capable of projecting power.) So it would be insanely stupid to start making demands of the Loroi like we are the ones with the superior military forces. One Strike Group can easily crush the TCA fleet in a single engagement and devastate all of humanity's worlds.
3: We're trying to get on their good side. You -don't- get there by making outrageous and blatantly stupid demands of personnel and soldiers of a stellar nation that is clearly far more powerful than your nation over something as trivial as explaining why/how TK abilities work. The Loroi are trying to avoid a diplomatic screw up, but if humans push them too far, they will just kill the Scouts, then inform their commanders of the humans and how rude and obnoxious they are.

[Twinkee]

[Namaphry]

A good diplomat is not judgemental. They try to see things as they are, not in terms of how they believe they should be. They strive to understand the perspectives of others unlike them, no matter how alien, and to get all the facts before concluding their thoughts. They use simplification is a tool to help others understand complex topics, not as an aid in their own decision-making. Ideally, they don't make decisions at all, but if they must, their goal is to keep their options open and maintain the advantage in negotiations--final decisions are the domain of statesmen and executive officials, who pass them down to their soldiers as rules and guidelines. For soldiers, the ability to make snap decisions and quickly judge options as 'good or bad' is a key survival trait, but diplomacy is at the opposite extreme.

Imagine a society built from a hostile world, one that has advanced technology, but endures more hardship than we ever did, even in the stone age. Not only did they need sealed, pressurized environment suits to go outside of their caves at all, but to survive in a world dominated by giant monsters, they needed heavy weapons and powered armour, as well.

Eventually they escape the pull of gravity and make contact with humans like us, before their native culture has time to erode. The result is a diplomatic meeting where one side is entirely clad in powered, armoured pressure suits with arm cannons, having no possible comprehension of how anyone else could view this as inappropriate for a formal meeting. Indeed, these people may imagine that to attend the meeting without their suits would be utterly disrespectful, because normally they would only remove them when at home with their own clan, for the sake of unseemly and private purposes such as mating, hygiene, medical care and routine maintenance.

Fortunate, then, that these people understand that other cultures may not be like their own, and that the humans who come in wearing what we consider normal clothing are not necessarily propositioning them, expressing a need for urgent hygiene or medical care, or displaying a blithe disregard for their apparent inability to maintain their own functioning life support equipment.

Likewise, our diplomats would have to respect that even though we'd assume that any one of us who came to a meeting wearing powered armour either expected trouble or was threatening to cause it, doesn't mean that it would be true for everyone. Simply because their native garb looks like heavy combat gear for a planetary invasion to our eyes, doesn't mean it carries the same or even similar connotations to them.

A different society can think very differently. In this example, these humans may find the idea of using their weapons against other people abhorrent, and physically threatening someone who is unarmoured despicable to the point of exile, in much the same way that we find it unthinkable for children to resolve their disputes by knife-fighting. Since armour-wearing is fundamental to their culture, they likely have their own forms of ritual combat which rely on submissions and pins, and expect both combatants to be equipped to the best of their clan's ability. With all these expectations, the idea of violence between them and us, or even the threat of it, may have never crossed their minds, nevermind that they greeted us equipped to fight a tyrannosaurus.

Having never been the dominant species in their home environment, they may have no concept of mass combat, and if our humans lost their cool and called in the marines, these armoured giants may have no adequate mental framework within which to respond. As far as they're aware, aside from the monsters they fought constantly, the only foe of humanity is mental illness, which wouldn't justify an armed assault. If our diplomats make it click to these people that maybe our people are monsters (in human form!), they've done the very opposite of their job, in the worst possible way.

Diplomats can make these kind of horrible mistakes simply by behaving normally, since it's 'normal' for us to freak out when a squad of armoured giants with plasma arm cannons walks into a meeting on Earth. This is one example, and there are an infinite number more, of why first contact diplomacy can't be expected to abide by provincial customs, and why those selected for diplomatic postings, especially new ones, need more patience, restraint, and reserve than we ever see in day-to-day life, even from those we consider saints. Saints don't negotiate multi-billion dollar business deals, or barter with the lives of millions, after all.

Everyone has their limits, so it's still part of the job to politely inform aliens that licking is an unacceptable greeting amongst your kind, especially while having saliva that functions as a face-melting acid to those being licked. Still, you don't flip the table and go home (or worse, make aggressive demands)just because someone's face melted, or because you found out a member of the alien delegation can fart atom bombs. It's irrational, and your superiors should likely prefer that you die horribly rather than get upset and start sour relations with an entire civilization. 'They started it' is not an adequate excuse, even if the provocation was intentional. Interstellar expeditions are not funded just so their leader can stick up their nose and put on an air of pretension if the other party turns out to be less skilled at diplomacy.

Advocating zero-tolerance for the availability of coercive methods in a first contact situation expresses a form of fanaticism comparable to that of a child who considers the fate of their security blanket to be more important than working to preserve human lives. It's essentially saying 'it's more important that we feel good about this than that we get results'.

The idea that the hurt feelings of one party can justify extorting technological and military secrets from another is immensely arrogant, unless it comes at the end of war as part of a peace deal. A demand for satisfaction is often used as part of a diplomatic strategy to create a popular excuse to start a war, and as it's a form of temper tantrum, it's a better means of starting wars than of preventing them. Trading hostages, of all things, would be a better idea, and that's probably not in the top 100.

Lastly, to judge interstellar empires by the standards of international human law makes no more sense than judging Cajun cooking by the standards of medicinal cat food. I'm not saying you can't do it, I'm just saying it probably misses out on a lot of things, and if you had things your way, it would be more likely to fatally poison someone than to improve the human condition, and even more likely to come across as completely insane. Humans are fundamentally similar and can adapt to any (terrestrial) environment, but this doesn't apply to all other species.

I think that covers a bunch of points regarding responsible diplomacy in general, and first contact with anthropomorphic aliens in specific. I'm sparing any real-world political discussion, since I don't think it belongs in this forum. I'm definitely getting some ideas about things to write about, here. (They all involve contact and diplomacy with space aliens, of course. Maybe with some keen examples of botching it horribly, with or without patriotic slogans.)

[Grayhome]

Namaphry have you interacted with diplomats?

I have interacted with over a hundred ambassadors and their attachés from nations around the world and I find your description of them to be highly flawed. I mean your advocacy that diplomats are... basically submissive, polite wienies alone is hilariously inaccurate. I wish the Russian embassy allowed me to record the full interview we conducted so I can post it, because that one alone contradicts pretty much everything in your previous post, let alone the Iranian or Philippian embassies. Actually, now that I reflect upon it, I think your naïve and idealistic description of the day to day conduct of ambassadors is kind of adorable in it's ignorance.

Yes. Yes actions like what the Loroi did to Alex in the comic and what they're doing to the humans in the fan fiction start wars. Oh and look! A faction opposing the Loroi who is also looking for allies! What an unbelievable coincidence.


Oh and Zahkarra, why are you so meeeeean.

*sob*

But seriously though Zahkarra, I've more than adequately answered all the points you've made in your previous post more than sufficiently. It seems to me that you are just rehashing old points that I've already responded too in this thread and others like it previously. If you are interested to my response to your points in your previous post review the last 3 or four posts I've posted.

[dragoongfa]

I think that this conversation has been done to death already, can people now just let it go?

[Logannion]

I'd like to second Dragoongfa's statement. Both sides have presented their arguments well enough. As a person who isn't knowledgable in diplomatic conduct, there has been enough information posted on this thread for me to draw my own conclusions.

Considering how everyone has their own strong convictions regarding the matter in question, it is better to just leave it be.