Writing Prompts

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dragoongfa
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by dragoongfa »

Proposed plot outline:
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The 'Voids' are essentially these: http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/tbc.html

Alex will recognize them as 'Mermaids' and the Loroi will recognize them as a 'Bedein'; their version of a fury.

In story they are the 'Pol', the aquatic Soia-Liron race found in Historian territory. They are strong telepaths and their telepathy is more 'Human' than 'Loroi'. As to why Alex was terrified of them: They were a finalized aquatic variant of the Loroi (finalized in the sense that it was fully developed, unlike the Loroi who should be a late beta. They were used to gather human samples and perhaps a small colony of them existed on Earth for some time after the fall of the Soia; with everything that entailed in regards to human terror.

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Hālian
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by Hālian »

dragoongfa wrote:Proposed plot outline:
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The 'Voids' are essentially these: http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/tbc.html

Alex will recognize them as 'Mermaids' and the Loroi will recognize them as a 'Bedein'; their version of a fury.

In story they are the 'Pol', the aquatic Soia-Liron race found in Historian territory. They are strong telepaths and their telepathy is more 'Human' than 'Loroi'. As to why Alex was terrified of them: They were a finalized aquatic variant of the Loroi (finalized in the sense that it was fully developed, unlike the Loroi who should be a late beta. They were used to gather human samples and perhaps a small colony of them existed on Earth for some time after the fall of the Soia; with everything that entailed in regards to human terror.
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I personally think it would be a shame if the *merfolk turned out to be malevolent. But I'm not on the writing team so
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Jethreuel
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by Jethreuel »

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That is why we are discussing potential directions beforehand, so that we don't have fighting authors bringing down the wrath of the Mod upon us.

I could see it as the Pols (given that I don't think the Loroi have encountered them before.) I don't think that the Loroi would recognize them as the furies, because that would mean they had encountered them before and felt them before, and would recognize them.

I could also see it as the Umiak finding and awakening a slumbering race that was what brought down, hunted and destroyed the Soia-Liron, with a few that lingered to terrorize humanity. Bringing in more of a Lovecraft type story, which means that the Loroi (and Humanity) have to succeed where the Soia-Liron failed.

novius
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by novius »

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Sounds interesting. Of course the Soia wouldn't stop at the Loroi in development.

Perhaps the Loroi might not be 'just' an early beta version of a finalized product, but a different flavour, as in, the Loroi are derived from humans with enhanced endurance, durability, open sanzai and stronger warrior tendencies as a race slated to be their shock troops, and with the "Pol" the Soia focused on completely different aspects, including, but not limited to, the Lotai, perhaps with the intention to make them useful for stealth missions. And now it isn't the Soia who reap the benefits, but the Shells.

Or, it was the other way round. Perhaps these "Pol" were an experiment that came before the Loroi, which had been discarded and sort of left to their own devices. Some of them terrorized the early humans, giving rise to the myths around Leviathan, mermaids*), sirens and other sea horrors and the Chtulhu myths (H. P. Lovecraft himself had a phobia of open water, and it actually shows in his works), where most of them were stranded on whatever dump of a water planet the Soia left them on. Until the Umiak found them.

The detailed timeline of their development and their relation to the Loroi may be secondary, and it's unlikely that Alex and the Loroi would ever learn the details. Perhaps - if, or when, they get hold of one - they would notice a distant relation to Loroi, and Alex having reason to dig into human myths again... if he overcomes the inborn terror these beings evoke in him.

Thumbs up!
So yes, the "mermaids" - not the loveable variant, but the sea predators they were originally for the humans, and "Furies" maybe both for humans and Loroi. They might find it interesting that both human and Loroi do have a concept for a female embodiment of vengeance...

*) About mermaids: It was that Andersen fairy tale and that Disney animated movie that showed them as cutesy and loveable creatures. Originally they were pictured as a predatory species and intermixed with sirens, luring hapless seafarers into the watery graves by their voices.

entity2636
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by entity2636 »

I'll drop my two cents in also...
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I was going to say that the source for Umiak lotai being the Pol feels like an impossibility at first since they are found only on one nature preserve world within the Historian sector, but on second thought, it may be within the realm of the possible, since the Umiak and Historians have a long common border. The Umiak thus could, in theory, either have come across another Pol population somewhere up spinward, or, if we are to paint the Historians as the villains behind the scenes, the Historians could have supplied the Umiak with some Pols. Yet I'm still not sure it should be the Pol.

The fact that both humans and loroi share the mythology about mermaids, sirens and furies that are malevolent, I think, works better for the story. Humans aren't instinctively afraid of whales or dolphins and the loroi don't have anything similar on their worlds or in their myths, but we both have mermaids. It could also be considered that said mermaids/furies are either a "beta" version of what later was developed into the loroi proper, or the result of an experiment for creating a customized "aquatic warrior" species. Some could have been "tested" on ancient Earth and escaped and some could have escaped on Deinar or Taben when the ancient loroi "fell out of the sky", depending on which loroi world the Fury myth originates from, giving rise to both our respective myths.

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Zarya
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by Zarya »

Thinking about the combination and effects of Loroi-Human bonding and sanzai:
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In both Beacons and New Frontiers we’ve been playing with unintended effects like broadcasting to all, or to Loroi with whom the protagonist has a special bond.

The combination Human-Loroi is presumed to be more powerful, in sending (New Frontiers) and with sensing (Beacons).

For Beacons, Novius and Dragoon propose that “undetected sensing” is not possible because Alex and Pure Sand were “seen” by the other entity. This is interesting, both as a limitation and vulnerability. Up until sofar the Umiak have been using the cloaking ability, they didn’t use it to seek out and destroy Loroi farseers (yet).

Alex’ lotai can disrupt sanzai shipwide, and perhaps help to hide an entire ship?
Alex’ and Nathan’s lotai both hide the person they are in touch with. This may turn out to be important, for example when protecting someone. Reconciling this with being “seen” when farseeing seems not compatible though?

We’ve been struggling with training in both fanfics. I propose to keep it as simple as Zen, or Alex’ Kung Fu experience, focused on one thing or task at hand only. This is surprisingly difficult for the “messy thinkers” that humans are, and can give rise to mishaps and unintended side-effects.

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dragoongfa
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by dragoongfa »

General comments:
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@entity2636

The Umiak had successfully invaded several Historian worlds before being largely dislodged from Historian territory (they still have a significant holdout that the Historians haven't managed to reclaim), it isn't far fetched that they got hold of a Pol population but didn't know what to do with them/how to control them until recently. Historian cooperation could be a reason or it could be something else.

@novius

I was thinking something similar, mermaids were generally seen as threats to all sailors for millenia before they got their re-imagining via the fairy tale route. Although my general assumption as to the creation of the Loroi would be more in line with an internal police force/enforcer race; it fits them to a T, especially when we take into consideration how successful the Mizol are.

However the Pol would have to be an aquatic offshoot, far more specialized than having any terrestrial race. Them being a some short of a telepathic weapon makes sense and would explain why the Historians would keep them hidden and protected.

@Zarya

It wasn't Alex that was detected but Pure Sand and she was detected because she actually focused on the void, like how warplanes have the ability to detect when they are locked on via radar and trace it back. I intend to have the 'back sensing' when detected to be as far as the Umiak 'telepaths' will go, mainly because of the means of control that the Umiak must be using. The Pol are fully sapient after all, they will either cooperate willingly or be heavily coerced.

novius
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by novius »

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@dragoongfa
"Heavily coerced" came to my mind, too. Pure Sand felt their presence, but no sentience or intent behind it, just presence. It could either be that their Lotai hides whatever is behind it, or whoever the Shells have in their clutches could be heavily drugged and be an integral part of a "cloaking device"... That callous disregard for the sanctity of other sapient beings would be just in line with the Umiak.

As of 'them' homing on Pure Sand... There could be different explanations, despite Alex's Lotai. One possible may be that it is because of his Lotai - as in, Alex helped her 'tune in' to see them, but in turn made her more visible to them. Right, active scanning and its drawbacks. And, second, as a Farseer she usually stands out like a beacon, maybe even despite Alex's Lotai.

@Zarya
I had that idea in mind for a long time. I wanted to give the Loroi an effective counter method to the Umiak's Lotai, but not one without any drawbacks. This way, they may use it, but overdoing it would tip off the Shells that their game is afoot. Second, it would make the Loroi think twice about burning a valuable resource.

Jethreuel
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by Jethreuel »

Some arguments against the Pols being the Furies and mermaids of lore, is that they are described as cetaceous without manipulator limbs. Which makes it hard to understand how they would be used to capture humans, or how they would have left after Tempest won her wars. Also, if the Pols were with the Loroi early on and were the augmented psionics, the Loroi would have had legends that would have described the Lotai the Pols had.

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dragoongfa
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by dragoongfa »

Jethreuel wrote:Some arguments against the Pols being the Furies and mermaids of lore, is that they are described as cetaceous without manipulator limbs. Which makes it hard to understand how they would be used to capture humans, or how they would have left after Tempest won her wars. Also, if the Pols were with the Loroi early on and were the augmented psionics, the Loroi would have had legends that would have described the Lotai the Pols had.
The Legend of Tempest as portrayed in the mural depicts 'mermaid like' Loroi. The Legends undoubtedly have some crazy stories about the 'Bedein' that helped 'Tempest the Terrible' against the 'Wicked Sisters', we can be creative in how we describe these powers if the Legend makes an appearance.

The Pol not having manipulator limbs is probably down to Historian propaganda, very few Union scientists have ever been allowed to meet a Pol and I wouldn't be surprised if the instances involved a specially prepared specimen to deceive the Union about the Pol and their nature.

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Werra
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by Werra »

Manipulator limps aren't necessary for the Pol to be a threat. Especially if a mesmerising telepathy is part of the hunting strategy.

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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by novius »

Common tropes have it that aquatic races usually don't have manipulator limbs. And lacking those in addition to other difficulties when trying to build up a civilization and development to sapience - try to discover fire, for example - they're usually depicted as having developed a different path and gaining outstanding psionic abilities. Either to directly manipulate their environs using tele- or pyrokinesis, for example, or to subdue landbound servitor races.

And given that they must have come into contact with the Loroi (and humans), in addition that both races don't paint them in a favourable picture, the latter idea - formidable mind powers to subdue/influence someone - sounds logical.

Sure, given the Soia, we'd usually talk about Intelligent Design rather than evolution, but first, even 100k is not 'nothing' on an evolutionary time scale, and second, the Soia took examples from evolution and might have come to the same conclusion.

Food for thought - given what Alex encountered, if he ever relates his experiences, the "Intelligent Design" faction amongst humans would get lots of upwind, too... :mrgreen:

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dragoongfa
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by dragoongfa »

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In the case of the Loroi the Legend of Tempest portrays the Bedein as a people/spirits who carried out justified 'vengeance' at the behest of Tempest; as if they were the ones being controlled not the opposite. In the tune of the Soia deciding to dispose of the 'beta prototype' that were the Loroi but the beta took control of a weapons grade end product and fucked everything up.

I can also see the 'no manipulator limbs' angle as possible but it is quite a disembarkation from the human folklore about mermaids and the depiction of the legend of Tempest. I think that there needs to be some distinct humanoid elements on them in order for the connections to be made between Mermaids and the Bedein. Depends on what the plausible angle for their creation would be, the Loroi being a police force is the most probable imho angle but the Pol? Psionic testbed aside there seem to be scantily few aquatic sapient races, out of all the races only the Pipolsid qualify and they are glorified jellyfishes. If the ratio of terrestrial sapient to aquatic sapient races is generally the same as the existing races of the local bubble then there wouldn't be much of a need to create an aquatic police force.

What if the Pol were meant to be some short of fallback failsafe in addition to the Loroi to prevent a catastrophe? Most habitable planets seem to have large bodies of water and as such having an aquatic subject race present on all worlds would serve as a stabilizing factor, especially if they could telepathically monitor the general disposition of the planet without being in a precarious position (due to being aquatic + having a Lotai) in case of a successful rebellion or even an invasion by a third party. Thinking about it, such an aquatic race would need to be able to have some basic tool use if that was what they were intended to do.

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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by Jethreuel »

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In the case of the Loroi the Legend of Tempest portrays the Bedein as a people/spirits who carried out justified 'vengeance' at the behest of Tempest; as if they were the ones being controlled not the opposite. In the tune of the Soia deciding to dispose of the 'beta prototype' that were the Loroi but the beta took control of a weapons grade end product and fucked everything up.

I can also see the 'no manipulator limbs' angle as possible but it is quite a disembarkation from the human folklore about mermaids and the depiction of the legend of Tempest. I think that there needs to be some distinct humanoid elements on them in order for the connections to be made between Mermaids and the Bedein. Depends on what the plausible angle for their creation would be, the Loroi being a police force is the most probable imho angle but the Pol? Psionic testbed aside there seem to be scantily few aquatic sapient races, out of all the races only the Pipolsid qualify and they are glorified jellyfishes. If the ratio of terrestrial sapient to aquatic sapient races is generally the same as the existing races of the local bubble then there wouldn't be much of a need to create an aquatic police force.

What if the Pol were meant to be some short of fallback failsafe in addition to the Loroi to prevent a catastrophe? Most habitable planets seem to have large bodies of water and as such having an aquatic subject race present on all worlds would serve as a stabilizing factor, especially if they could telepathically monitor the general disposition of the planet without being in a precarious position (due to being aquatic + having a Lotai) in case of a successful rebellion or even an invasion by a third party. Thinking about it, such an aquatic race would need to be able to have some basic tool use if that was what they were intended to do.
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I rather liked the use that the Pols were employed for in The Pale Horse, as perfect record-keepers. Which would also explain why the Historians were able to mostly maintain their tech level (the Pols could teach the Historians lost knowledge), and why they were reluctant to allow access to the Pols. The Pols in that setting likely also know exactly what happened to bring down the Soia Liron Empire, and if it happened to be that the Soia Liron encountering a separate previously unknown more powerful race that did not like the thought of being meddled with by the Soia Liron (as opposed to modified humans escaping), the Umiak invading Historian Space and capturing some Pols could learn of that race and enlist that race in their aid against the Loroi.
An unknown species with a powerful lotai that retaliated with enough force would destroy the Soia Liron fast enough that the Soia Liron would not know how to defend against it or to prepare against it. After the Soia Liron were defeated, then the race would go back into hibernation.

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Werra
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by Werra »

So..how long do you see the Beacons plotline continuing?

The current discussion makes me think it might be a while yet.

Other possible finales might be the conclusion of the battle of Nezel/end of the Loroi/Umiak war/contact with humanity at large.

What is the rough plan?

Also, I have a suggestion. Whenever a new character is introduced, the one introducing has to write a short bio describing the character. That could make characters more consistent and give others an incentive to use them.

Thoughts?

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dragoongfa
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by dragoongfa »

I think that 'Beacons' will continue for as long as Alex and Co have a story to tell; now how long that will take, that's up in the air.

I agree with a character outline, I will try to keep it in mind.

novius
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by novius »

Perhaps we can deviate from the 'no manipulator limbs' part - after all, they were designed as well, and the Soia might have seen reason to give them the means to finely manipulate their environs - possibly telekinetics can't wholly grasp (ha-hah) the versatility of hands. Having them more recognizable as the mermaids of lore might help the story flow. So... a set of fully formed arms, ending in webbed, clawed hands, and an even more elfin looking face makes sense. The biggest deviation from the picture would 'just' be the tail not being the stereotypical mermaid tail with the single fin fanning out at the end, but an even more elongated limb with a fin running along the back, allowing for propulsion using undulating movements rather than a tailstroke. Or ... perhaps the Soia experimented with different designs. Who knows?

So yes, there are good reasons for the Soia to design a sapient aquatic race with considerable psionic power and Lotai. Perhaps they were designed as a counter if the Loroi for some reason get out of hand. Tempest herself might have been the notable exeption securing their service (but not necessarily loyalty, I think), but at a whole that would be a good reason why the Bedein would be quite ill-reputed in Loroi lore as well.

About character outlines - usually I make them up as they go, adding details when they become relevant, but since I'm not the only author here now, I'll try to keep that in mind as well.

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Razor One
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by Razor One »

An idea;
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Let's assume that the Bedein were on Earth during the Soia period half a million years ago, and remained there until relatively recently in evolutionary history. The longer they're on Earth predating humans, the more plausible the Lotai evolutionary counter becomes, and the more recently they were made extinct on Earth, the more likely any instinctual response to them would remain preserved in the survivors, to say nothing of vague cultural memories.

I've got two possible scenarios in my head.

The first is that they suffered from the Toba Catastrophe worse than the human population did ~70,000 Years ago. What few survivors there were weren't enough to rebuild their population and aggressive hunting of the remaining vulnerable human populations weeded out individuals lacking a lotai. The last of the Bedein die out on Earth, leaving the remaining 1000 - 10000 breeding pairs to repopulate.

The second is that as human civilisation began to really get off the ground 10,000 years ago, there was an effort to exterminate them by stone age populations living in and around Africa and the Mediterranean in the coastal and river/lake systems in those regions, largely succeeding with perhaps a last gasp in the late bronze age before disappearing altogether.

Lack of evidence in both scenarios can be attributed to being aquatic, sea level rise, and perhaps a cultural more that demands that the body of a Bedein be destroyed. Since I don't imagine we'll have scoured the sea floor thoroughly in the 2160's, and fossilisation in shallow waters is I think somewhat dubious, it's plausible that there's little hard evidence of their existence on Earth.
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novius
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by novius »

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@Razor One
Beautiful and well thought out proposal. And, these two scenarios don't necessarily exclude each other. On the evolutional time scale, the Bedein rose as predators and the cause of evolutionary pressure on the prehominids to develop a Lotai.

The Toba Catastrophe could have affected the Bedein as well. The initial explosion shockwave racing through the water may have killed lots of them, and the reduced sunlight because of the airborne volcanic dust caused food chains in the sea to collapse as well. Being fully aquatic they faced starvation, too.

They could have recovered alongside the humans, and it was a very close race for the two dominant species on this planet, but with the humans having a genetic memory of their age-old nemesis, it spelled doom for the Bedein. Scientists are already arguing that the stone-age human may be responsible for the smilodon's and the mammoth's extinction, as well as that of most of the ice-age megafauna, so we can be reasonably sure that they would put quite an effort into hunting down these sea creatures, but if they can retreat to the deep sea, which is still largely unexplored as of today, it would be technically impossible for the stone- or bronze-age humans to completely exterminate them.

Nice touch with the reference to the "Sea Peoples". I could imagine the Bedein trying to make a last stand against the humans which are slowly becoming seafaring in themselves and encroaching on their own turf. Whether some of them survived in isolation until 2160 or they were completely eradicated by then, Alex surely has a story to tell that many things they deemed to be in the realm of myth and fantasy is shockingly real.

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dragoongfa
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Re: Writing Prompts

Post by dragoongfa »

http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 191#p13191

Regarding the earlier discussion about the tozon:
1 solon “beat”: one heartbeat, 1.092 seconds. The average rest heartbeat for a female Loroi is approx. 55 beats per minute.
1 bima “moment” = 1 dinosolon = 64 solon (70 seconds). Infrequently used unit between beat and cycle.
1 digel “cycle” 1 danzosolon = 1 dinobima = 64 bima = 8 nestasolon = 4096 solon = 4473 seconds (1.25 hours)
1 tibos “day” = 21 digel = 26.09 Earth hours
1 nanapi “transit”= 241.92 hours (10.08 Earth days)
1 mannal “pace” = 0.776 m
1 malir solon “radiance beat”~= 1.1 light second, 327,373 km.
1 Deinar sina “Deinar gravity” or “standard gravity”: 9.216 m/s^2, ~= 0.94G
1 nasitosdal sina “shipboard gravity” = 7/8 (0.875) standard gravity = 0.82G
1 Deinar tozon = one Deinar year, similar to one Earth year
1 nistil tozon = “standard year;” (22,195,037 seconds, 256.887 Earth days, .7033 Earth years)
So yeah, sticking with the Deinar Tozon to count things is mostly canonical since both it and the 'standard year' are used.

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