Page 84

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GeoModder
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Re: Page 84

Post by GeoModder »

Winter Tide, together with the rest of the Van Squadron, had picket duty before being recalled to line up in front of the other squadrons. The nimbler ships of this squadron might have been better to intercept the first wave of assault (the Umiak torpedo launch) over the heavier ships elsewhere in the Loroi formation. I suppose they were to withdraw once the torpedo deluge was taken care of.
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Karst45
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Re: Page 84

Post by Karst45 »

Arioch wrote:"Breach in the starboard fusion chamber" is a Homeworld reference; it's one of the ship chatter audio options that plays right before a ship blows up.
ahh that would explain where i tought i heard that.

wonder if there were easter egg in that chatter.

captainsmirk
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Re: Page 84

Post by captainsmirk »

Does anyone else think it was dumb to put the Escort Cruiser out front in Van Squadron in the first place? According to Arioch's Insider article, CLE type ships don't carry any pulse beam cannons, so they can't defend themselves against heavier opponents. IMO, the Winter Tide should have been held back to cover the Center squadron.
The Van squadron within Loroi fleets does seem to be used as pickets, the equivalent of skirmish screens during various eras of warfare on earth. Looking at its depictions on the maps Alex has been viewing it doesn't contain any heavy ships at all (and in fact Winter's Tide is not the only CLE in the squadron) mainly cruisers and destroyers.

There also appears to be at least one CLE with the Tempest in Centre squadron visible on the map shown in on page 83.

The CLE seem to be used as light cruisers as well as escorts.

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Arioch
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Re: Page 84

Post by Arioch »

The Rapier-class CLE has short-ranged weaponry designed to defeat torpedoes and gunboats. In order to be effective, they need to be where the enemy torpedoes and gunboats are, and for the most part that means being up front with the destroyers. Larger ships with pulse cannon are generally placed in the back ranks so they can fire from range on the enemy while they are engaged with the van. This does mean that being in the front rank is hazardous duty, but that's the nature of the beast. The Umiak ships that damaged Winter Tide (and Thunderbolt) were under pulse cannon fire from the heavy cruisers and battlecruisers the whole time; it's not clear to me that being armed with pulse cannons would have protected Winter Tide.

The total strength of SG51 prior to the start of the engagement was: 1xGCS, 1xBC, 1xCW, 8xCA, 4xCLE, 13xDD. This was down almost a full squadron (about 7 vessels) from its strength upon entering the system prior to the first battle.

The breakdown of the squadrons was:
Van (Nova): 3xCLE (including Winter Tide and Sirocco), 4xDD (including Thunderstorm)
Center (Arclight): 1xGCS (Tempest), 2xCA (including Torrent), 1xCLE, 3xDD, 19xLight Interceptors (pooled from the whole group)
Left (Moonglow): 1xBC (Tsunami), 3xCA, 3xDD
Right (Ashrain): 1xCW (Black Razor), 3xCA, 3xDD

Prior to the first battle, there was an additional CA leading Van, an additional CW and CLE in Center, and one additional DD in each squadron. Not all of these ships were destroyed; some were damaged and withdrew.

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Re: Page 84

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Do the Loroi consider certain positions to be an "honor?" For instance, being a member of the first rank of medieval knights in a charge, or the first centurion in a Roman legion connoted a greater honor and conveyed the skill and experience of those who were in such positions. Do the Loroi have similar sentiments about the physical positioning of their units? Is being placed in command of the center (or the left, or the right, etc.) a reflection of skill or experience, or is it simply based on the vagaries of war, and the decision of the commander?
Last edited by CptWinters on Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Karst45
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Re: Page 84

Post by Karst45 »

Karst45 wrote:wonder if there were easter egg in that chatter. (reff to homeworld)
Well i know it not really part of this but i did some research and found interresting thing
SpoilerShow
Arioch is a long-standing member of the Relic Community, a talented artist, and the creator of the webcomic Outsider, which enjoys a large and growing following both on the forums and elsewhere. However, his greatest contribution to the community has been running the Homeworld Shipyards, an exhaustive reference site listing the details of every ship in the Homeworld universe.

Arioch has his own Easter egg in Homeworld 2. Playing a skirmish under his name and losing will trigger a custom defeat message, saying "Arioch, my voice is sexier." This is Relic's answer to Arioch's questioning of the decision to replace Heidi Ernest as the voice of Fleet Command (Karan S'Jet) for Homeworld 2.


http://wiki.reliccommunity.com/index.php?title=Arioch
argh and yet again when i say something unrelated i get the top post :S

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icekatze
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Re: Page 84

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I should really get homeworld and play it now that I have a computer that is capable of running it... But for now, back to work. (working from home is dangerous for those like myself who can't help but check unrelated things online and waste time.)

As long as they are maneuvering freely, any Loroi ship can expect to be within range of their enemy for the same length of time. The ones in front are just within range first and the Umiak might not switch targets during some of the time when their ranges overlap, but in this case the Umiak decided to accelerate to break away rather than flip around and hit them with their big guns as they coasted away or burned to decelerate for another pass.

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Re: Page 84

Post by Arioch »

Wintermute wrote:Still, this page raises the question in my mind of exactly how frequent a ship going critical (in the delayed post-damage fashion seen here, where minutes pass from "hit" to "boom") is in the Outsider-verse. Winter Tide being lost in combat I expected, but the manner of it's passing I did not see coming (in that it was a delayed reaction).
The specific reason for the delay was because Moonglow and Ashrain's awkward "wager" exchange would have been even more awkward immediately following the loss of a ship. But I think the delay is somewhat realistic; my readings of military history suggest that ships rarely sink instantly when hit, and often a ship that survived the worst of the battle later succumbs to something much less exciting.
NOMAD wrote:man the damage didn't look that bad and all from the first hit. I guess that means loroi ships aren't as durable as I first though. But still it doesn't seem fair the damage looked survivable.

It was certainly survivable; Nova was in the process of reporting that she thought if they could get the reactor under control, she would be able to restore main power and make headway. But, c'est la guerre. With a matter-annihilation reactor, I don't think there's much margin between "having problems" and "oops, gone"... not really any time to consider evacuation. And I don't believe that engines with ejectable "warp cores" are practical or desirable in a warship in this milieu.
GeoModder wrote:Was the commanding officer of Sirocco the most senior in Van Squadron after Winter Tide foundered?

Yes. I have tried to minimize the number of ships and captains that I show in this introductory battle, in an attempt to reduce reader character overload... but I know I'm riding the far edge of that boundary.
Siber wrote:I would like to say, since I haven't mentioned it before, that I'm throughly impressed by the Umiak ship design in general. They're all very striking.

Thanks Siber! I'm particularly proud of the Umiak ship drawings, perhaps because many of them are done off the cuff without much in the way of prepared designs. And the first panel of page 84 is definitely my favorite (of that page).
CptWinters wrote:Do the Loroi consider certain positions to be an "honor?" For instance, being a member of the first rank of medieval knights in a charge, or the first centurion in a Roman legion connoted a greater honor and conveyed the skill and experience of those who were in such positions. Do the Loroi have similar sentiments about the physical positioning of their units? Is being placed in command of the center (or the left, or the right, etc.) a reflection of skill or experience, or is it simply based on the vagaries of war, and the decision of the commander?
As a self-described warrior culture, I think it's natural that most Loroi captains will consider it a point of honor to be placed in a position where contact with the enemy is expected and she can demonstrate her abilities. I don't think the Loroi captains actively seek death, but they do seek danger, and they are very professional soldiers; they know death is part of the business. Ashrain did request a transfer from her "safe" Imperial Guard posting to a raider group for this reason, and many of those (captains) in Strike Group 51 are volunteers. That said, in a war as long as this one, with casualty rates so high, those with a "me first!" attitude often won't live very long. So I think in a long war through process of selection you will have many young, aggressive, inexperienced captains, and a few more veteran commanders who are likely to be a bit more cautious.

The Loroi concept of luck holds that a warrior who dies in battle -- even from ancillary causes -- draws misfortune off her comrades and therefore contributes materially to their chances of victory. As such, it is considered unseemly to overly lament a lost comrade, lest her contributions be minimized. Any Loroi who accepts a position of command also knows the Loroi tradition that the destiny of the most brilliant commanders is often to die. That's what makes a commander like Stillstorm so valuable; she is aggressive, sometimes to the point of recklessness, and yet she wins, and survives to bring her experience to the next engagement.

But yes, for the raider groups, they are operating in an environment disconnected with direct contact with headquarters, in which casualties or change in plans or a split in forces can sometimes result in a junior captain suddenly in command of a squadron, changes in assignment can be instant, frequent, and totally subject to the whims of the current commanding officer.
Karst45 wrote:Arioch has his own Easter egg in Homeworld 2.
arioch_sexier.mp3 You get this message whether you win or lose.

Voitan
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Re: Page 84

Post by Voitan »

I wouldn't necessarily write off the whole crew as lost. There is possibly some survivors, and of those, most likely the furthest from the starboard reactor.

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icekatze
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Re: Page 84

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I have to wonder what kinds of radiation treatments the Loroi have, and indeed their level of medical tech in general. They seemed to be able to heal an alien that they'd never seen before anyway. I mention this because if there is anyone still alive on the Winter Tide, as Voitan suggests, they probably just took a huge dose of gamma rays.

((Also, homeworld cataclysm is going for $75 not fair. ;_; ))

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Re: Page 84

Post by CptWinters »

Thanks for the response, Arioch. I'm very interested to see the aftermath of this engagement, and the Loroi reaction to its conclusion.

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Arioch
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Re: Page 84

Post by Arioch »

icekatze wrote:(Also, homeworld cataclysm is going for $75 not fair. )
Homeworld had an excellent story, and is worth playing despite the outdated engine. Homeworld 2 had a less impressive story, but is a much more fun and modern game. I would not recommend spending any amount of money (or time) on Cataclysm.
CptWinters wrote: I'm very interested to see the aftermath of this engagement, and the Loroi reaction to its conclusion.
Me too! We're just a few pages away from the end of the chapter... I'm pretty sure that must be one of the signs of the end-times.

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Re: Page 84

Post by dex drako »

@ icekatze and Voitan

there are no survivors because Heck there isn’t a winter tide anymore for that matter.

Loroi ships carry a lot more anti-matter then two or three of the largest torpedoes combined ( more likely closer to a 100 times that or more.) all that exploded inside the ship where armor would be useless even if it could have helped from an explotion that large. the way I see it what's left of the winter tide could fit nicely into the palm of your hand at this point.

I believe that was the point that last white out panel was meant to show.
Last edited by dex drako on Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

CptWinters
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Re: Page 84

Post by CptWinters »

Arioch wrote:Me too! We're just a few pages away from the end of the chapter... I'm pretty sure that must be one of the signs of the end-times.
It has been awhile; but it's been worth it, as far as I'm concerned-- and I think the results speak for themselves.

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Re: Page 84

Post by Random Person »

Arioch wrote:Me too! We're just a few pages away from the end of the chapter... I'm pretty sure that must be one of the signs of the end-times.
Heck, almost to the end of chapter 1 of 7 after almost a decade. Jesus Arioch, you're probably gonna die of old age before you finish this.

I like the last few pages quite a bit, pew-pew lasers and all.
Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? It's not my department. -Wernher von Braun

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Re: Page 84

Post by NOMAD »

Arioch wrote:[It was certainly survivable; Nova was in the process of reporting that she thought if they could get the reactor under control, she would be able to restore main power and make headway. But, c'est la guerre. With a matter-annihilation reactor, I don't think there's much margin between "having problems" and "oops, gone"... not really any time to consider evacuation. And I don't believe that engines with ejectable "warp cores" are practical or desirable in a warship in this milieu.
Well that make more sense, i just finished reading a book on Japanese Heavy cruisers is WWII and then had a similar, although less advance problem, with their torpedos; since they carried a large load of 24 and each was 1000+kg of a ship killing warhead. I similar problem happen with large ships too ( Hood and the Arizona come to mind)
I am a wander, going from place to place without a home I am a NOMAD

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GeoModder
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Re: Page 84

Post by GeoModder »

Arioch wrote:
CptWinters wrote: I'm very interested to see the aftermath of this engagement, and the Loroi reaction to its conclusion.
Me too! We're just a few pages away from the end of the chapter... I'm pretty sure that must be one of the signs of the end-times.
:lol:

Let me third that!
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Re: Page 84

Post by Mjolnir »

dex drako wrote:@ icekatze and Voitan

there are no survivors because Heck there isn’t a winter tide anymore for that matter.

Loroi ships carry a lot more anti-matter then two or three of the largest torpedoes combined ( more likely closer to a 100 times that or more.) all that exploded inside the ship where armor would be useless even if it could have helped from an explotion that large. the way I see it what's left of the winter tide could fit nicely into the palm of your hand at this point.

I believe that was the point that last white out panel was meant to show.
There's not yet any indication that the ship's entire stores of fuel were involved, the one white-out panel we saw was of a sphere centered around the engine section. And the command area survived at least long enough to transmit video of them reacting. It may have been just what was in the reactor following an emergency shutdown when the engines and weapons it was supplying were blasted to bits, making for a result similar to a nearby torpedo detonation.

"Foundering" to me implies total, unrecoverable loss of propulsion, not total destruction. However, given the possible radiation release and the shock of the blast (they were getting shaken inside by plasma weapon hits, how hard would a reactor blowing up hit them?), it may be a matter of grabbing some equipment and supplies, recovering bodies (if doing so is a Loroi custom), and scuttling the remains.

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Re: Page 84

Post by dex drako »

Mjolnir wrote:There's not yet any indication that the ship's entire stores of fuel were involved, the one white-out panel we saw was of a sphere centered around the engine section. And the command area survived at least long enough to transmit video of them reacting. It may have been just what was in the reactor following an emergency shutdown when the engines and weapons it was supplying were blasted to bits, making for a result similar to a nearby torpedo detonation.

"Foundering" to me implies total, unrecoverable loss of propulsion, not total destruction. However, given the possible radiation release and the shock of the blast (they were getting shaken inside by plasma weapon hits, how hard would a reactor blowing up hit them?), it may be a matter of grabbing some equipment and supplies, recovering bodies (if doing so is a Loroi custom), and scuttling the remains.

There were three panels on page 84 that showed the destruction of the winter tide the sphere centered on the engine was only the second panel.

Image

Panel 1 shows the damaged winter tide from a few 100 feet off

Panel 2 shows the start of the explosion as the white spherical blast around the engein from about the same distance out.

Panel 3 is what I was talking about, it happens after the communication failed and shows a complete whiteout. now going with the theme of the last two panels the “camera” in this panel should still be the same few 100 feet off the winter tide and shows the blast has expanded far beyond the limits of the ship.

And that’s why Arioch used the word “foundered” which by definition means “To sink below the surface of the water”. In a naval point of view a foundered ship has totally disappeared beneath the surface of the water not a one that’s damaged but afloat.

The closest idea to that in a space opera like this would be total destruction.

That’s why no ones talking about going to help them.

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Re: Page 84

Post by bunnyboy »

Sadly, I second draco.

Even if the dynamic of explosion could leave some pockets safe for shockwave, the infernal heat would incinerate everyone and leave the dust on airless space.
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