sci-fi creative writting tips?

[Arioch]

Your just so hilariously wrong. I don't even know where to start. It doesn't look like we've even read the same material. Vampire Hunter D, fucking really?

Please make your point without attacking the other poster. There's no cause to use insulting language like this.

[Absalom]

First, manticore7, what did you want the spaceships to be like? Quick & zippy? Ponderous & powerful? Knowing the 'feel' could help us make suggestions.




I don't actually have any comments on Discord's response, I think we're just aimed in different directions.

And just for reference, I don't actually hate Crest/Banner, I just don't think it's worth getting giddy over. Incidentally, Paragon? You really should cool down your emotions when you make these posts. Also, if you want to respond, then please make a new thread, the main topic is being drowned out.




Quick note: you accidentally deleted the opening quote tag.

1) Because the other powers banned genetic manipulation for whatever reason. Hell, we meet a character who is borderline psychotic from the discrimination he faced.

Yes, during Crest. The problem is that the non-genegineering civilizations should have been meaningfully disadvantaged. We see worlds that we have to assume have been terraformed, but a pro-genegineering race would be able to make use of such worlds much earlier in the process, thereby providing an automatic advantage. THEN there's the fact that the Abh were far from the only ones to be sent from Earth (their creators sent several more missions themselves), and by that point genegineering would have been commonly accepted for various genetic diseases, leading to a situation where most of the successful civilizations in space should be practitioners of genetic engineering. In short, the guy that was discriminated against shouldn't have been someone who had been genetically engineered, he should have been someone who hadn't. By the rules of Crest/Banner (in this case, "genetic engineering tends to result in better outcomes"), the other four empires should be dominated by the genetically engineered!

2. Pointless complaining, it's a space opera. The ships are the way they are because they're supposed to be acting like wind-powered tall ships. It's the Age of Expoloration/ Colonialism except FUTURE. What were you expecting?

I expect imagination. You want to emulate tall-ships? Have slow ships, structural-integrity fields, and spatial warpers. All can be explained away as (extremely far-fetched) extrapolations of current theories or technology. Crest/Banner isn't Age Of Exploration/Colonialism.

Seriously, all of their weapons are tech that we could do in either short-lived or weak versions right now.

3.Your just so hilariously wrong. I don't even know where to start. It doesn't look like we've even read the same material. Vampire Hunter D, fucking really?

That's the only thing that I read where I notice a character that barely emotes, and that series DOES do a much better job of adding personality to the character (it's high cheese volume doesn't seem to affect this).

4. The battles were generally tense as hell. And the one big one in the second season is fucking huge. The dialogue is excellent and watching these characters made the show for me. Maybe you got a bad translation? Some of the fan shit I've seen for the show is awful. Try to find some of the officially released stuff (I've only watched the DVDs and read the Manga, btw). Fan translators rarely make any effort to localize, so a lot gets lost along with the whole thing just being a pain to read.

I have several officially translated DVDs, at least three of the officially translated mange, and I think I have some volumes of the novels buried somewhere around here. I was on that forum around the time that the official translations were first being released, so there was plenty of hype for them.

Seriously, I've read the actual material, there are a number of interesting characters, I just never found any bits where they happened to be the main characters (Spoor is probably my favorite character from the series, but the side-characters in general, which Spoor is an example of, tend to be interesting in some way or another). I really do blame the author (because he's written much better characters IN THAT SERIES).

5.Because they were one of the first groups to start, and they cracked FTL first? This is explicitly stated.

Actually, I recall the exact opposite: the people of Samson's (the Basroil's chief engineer I think?) planet were apparently the ones to discover FTL, they just didn't create an empire.

Martine was founded by a sleeper ship. They didn't travel by Sord. Travel by Sord is much faster. It probably also helps that they got their start as an actual empire by conquering colonies with no or little capacity for space travel.

Sord travel only helps AFTER you've discovered it, beforehand you're kicked in the teeth by time-dilation. In case you somehow missed it, after destroying their creators, the Abh became space merchants, I've seen no material saying that they immediately turned to creating an empire.

I actually have watched Macross (which is a whole different genre) and Pirates (which isn't even TRYING to be the same thing). They're both pretty good! As is Banner/Crest. Have you seen Legend of Galactic Heroes? People tend to compare the two.

I've seen most of Tytania (same creator as LoGH, but the novels were apparently cancelled or something). Unfortunately I haven't seen much space-opera anime, so I just don't have many anime comparison points for it (and comparing it to Star Wars is just unfair to anything, even to things that can hold their own).


I didn't see you comment on my accusation of melodrama?

6. I assume your referring to the Abh being created as slaves to radical Japanese nationalists or something right? Didn't they, you know, murder the shit out of those guys at the outset? And they're characterized as being incredibly hands off later on. Not exactly a ringing endorsement of Japanese foreign policy. They don't even really act anything like Japanese people, yet for some reason people always bring it up when they want to criticize it. It smacks of grasping for straws to me.

You did pay attention to what I actually said there, right? There's a very good reason why I restarted the count there. I don't think that Independence Day is a bad movie either, but I intend to never write a "Space America!" anything, unless I want to write a critique of America. For that matter, unless you're talking about the 4th of July, the US military, or ex-military presidents, Independence Day doesn't really endorse any sort of American policy, the only bit of your argument here that holds anything resembling water is the "they don't act Japanese" thing, and I certainly don't have enough experience with Japanese people to base my opinion on that.

It's not like I'm laughing at the idea of Space Battleship Yamamoto (did I add too many 'am' bits there?) here, I just happen to disagree with this. I normally look down on far-future sci-fi that actually mentions America as well (we don't normally talk about Ancient Persia when we discuss globalization, you know?).

7. I don't really know much about that. "They say he revitalized his genre, but I don't believe them!" What?

Actually, he apparently wrote that himself as the foreword to one of the books (granted, I think this might have been a fan-translation). My dispute with it is that unless the word he originally used was much more specific than 'sci-fi' (which, admittedly, I wouldn't be surprised at), the chances of him being the only one is too low for me to believe it (I know that there was a fair bit of anime & manga sci-fi in the 70s & 80s when I understand that he got started, and anime has actually always been rare even in Japan itself, which makes the absence of sci-fi novels unlikely).

8.Brian Herbert is a hack and your delusional if you think otherwise. It's just terrible. I've read things I like better than Crest/Banner as well. So what?

The Lt. Leary series is, as I mentioned, of dubious quality, the Star Risk series isn't high-sci-fi, and I don't think that Brian Herbert is all that great (I also don't think that he's doing much of the writing, he just coincidentally holds the rights...), I just think that the writing in those books is better than what I recall from Crest/Banner (note: it HAS been a while since I read the novels, and they might have improved the translations too, they originally kept terms like Bogne instead of using Granddaughter, are they still doing that?).

Incidentally:

Banner/Crest owns. The Abh own.

Doesn't say "I've read better" to me, it says "rabid fan". My initial impression of you might have been skewed by this.

Honestly though, "Brian Herbert" (I assume that the writing is actually done by Anderson, but I could be wrong), doesn't write bad fiction, he just:
1) wrote things in the Dune universe, when the fans were almost guaranteed to disapprove of it (I've been around fans of books, music, etc., it's an automatic strike against the material, sometimes including with me),
2) isn't a great author himself (he doesn't measure up to the first Dune book, which is the one that really matters; that having been said, wikipedia claims that his father was accused of not writing as well with the other books back when they were first published too, it's just that they were published quite a while ago and memories fade).
If he had released the books under the guise of NOT being Dune books then he'd probably be ranked a second or third tier sci-fi author, not a hack (but, as I said, I don't think that he did most of the writing, I think Anderson did).

A lot of your complaints seem to stem from you having a bad translation that probably hasn't been localized at all (an assumption on my part) , and expecting it to be high concept science fiction when it is a space opera.

I can't make any arguments about the localization, but I wasn't expecting high-concept sci-fi, just something that would retain my interest.

[Michael]

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[Muttley]

Absolom, addressing just one part of your large post:

Crusty old Fan here, who can remember the hoo-hah raised by Dune and its increasingly dull sequels.

Frank Herbert's Dune is one of the cornerstone novels of the Silver Age. Reworked from two serials in Analog it won a Hugo and the first Nebula for novels, a success with both fans and the SF "establishment".

It was entirely new and different when it arrived, an SF novel with a hard shell that addressed planetary ecology and interstellar politics in a way not seen before. Despite having been edited together somewhat scrappily (look at the number of main characters, many of whom appear briefly then vanish) it is paced well and keeps your interest throughout its many pages, engaging you with characters that grab your attention.

It's success was unexpected (Herbert spent a long time finding someone who would publish it at all) and he was steamrollered into providing "more Dune" - Dune Messiah, Children of Dune and etc. None of these match the impact of the original novel, and are all disappointing - but bearing in mind the success of Dune, this is almost inevitable.

For me at least, the David Lynch film was a low point. It has no substance, attempts to succeed from style alone, but fails because the original is more stylish and much more internally consistent.

The SF Channel miniseries is excellent, by far the best adaption of Dune, and stays true to the original. Well worth watching.

I generally like Frank Herbert, and reckon his first novel, Dragon in the Sea (serialised in Astounding as Under Pressure) is very fine, character-driven in a hard SF environment, that still stands up well. Dune was his second novel, and its success rather derailed him into Dune-fan-feeding on the one hand and some adequate but not outstanding non-Dune novels on the other.

[Absalom]

Absolom, addressing just one part of your large post:

Crusty old Fan here, who can remember the hoo-hah raised by Dune and its increasingly dull sequels.

Frank Herbert's Dune is one of the cornerstone novels of the Silver Age. Reworked from two serials in Analog it won a Hugo and the first Nebula for novels, a success with both fans and the SF "establishment".

Perhaps you'd know, was his short-story work on average better? Also, would the current age be Bronze or Tin .

It was entirely new and different when it arrived, an SF novel with a hard shell that addressed planetary ecology and interstellar politics in a way not seen before. Despite having been edited together somewhat scrappily (look at the number of main characters, many of whom appear briefly then vanish) it is paced well and keeps your interest throughout its many pages, engaging you with characters that grab your attention.

My recognition that Dune is, in fact, largely a political fiction book has shaped my understanding of sci-fi to a fair degree: I consider it a 'setting' or 'trait' for than a discrete genre in and of itself. Space Opera would, of course, be a genre (or several).

For me at least, the David Lynch film was a low point. It has no substance, attempts to succeed from style alone, but fails because the original is more stylish and much more internally consistent.

The SF Channel miniseries is excellent, by far the best adaption of Dune, and stays true to the original. Well worth watching.

I personally prefer the Lynch film, but I also watched it while I was growing up (nostalgia!), and goodness knows that it's somewhat wonky in some aspects.

I generally like Frank Herbert, and reckon his first novel, Dragon in the Sea (serialised in Astounding as Under Pressure) is very fine, character-driven in a hard SF environment, that still stands up well. Dune was his second novel, and its success rather derailed him into Dune-fan-feeding on the one hand and some adequate but not outstanding non-Dune novels on the other.

Was that based on the secret-undersea-drilling short story? I have a copy of Eye, some interesting stories in that (though I think some of the ideas a bit odd in one way or another).

[Muttley]

Absalom wrote

Frank Herbert's Dune is one of the cornerstone novels of the Silver Age. Reworked from two serials in Analog it won a Hugo and the first Nebula for novels, a success with both fans and the SF "establishment".

Perhaps you'd know, was his short-story work on average better? Also, would the current age be Bronze or Tin .

After Silver Age comes the New Wave, then it all gets a bit messy. The Fantasy Revival of the '70's pushed Fantasy past hard SF and eventually into the mainstream. The next clear SF "movement" is cyberpunk, although you have to recognise the separate effect that Star Wars had.

Herbert's best work is Dune. His short stories are uneven, much like the later novels.

It was entirely new and different when it arrived, an SF novel with a hard shell that addressed planetary ecology and interstellar politics in a way not seen before. Despite having been edited together somewhat scrappily (look at the number of main characters, many of whom appear briefly then vanish) it is paced well and keeps your interest throughout its many pages, engaging you with characters that grab your attention.

My recognition that Dune is, in fact, largely a political fiction book has shaped my understanding of sci-fi to a fair degree: I consider it a 'setting' or 'trait' for than a discrete genre in and of itself. Space Opera would, of course, be a genre (or several).

The saving grace of Dune, for me at least, is that the hard SF background is vital to the story but never becomes obtrusive. Makes it a proper SF story. The main characters are well-developed and their characters drive the plot - the fact that this is on a grand scale makes their interaction political, although there is plenty of action as well.

I generally like Frank Herbert, and reckon his first novel, Dragon in the Sea (serialised in Astounding as Under Pressure) is very fine, character-driven in a hard SF environment, that still stands up well. Dune was his second novel, and its success rather derailed him into Dune-fan-feeding on the one hand and some adequate but not outstanding non-Dune novels on the other.

Was that based on the secret-undersea-drilling short story? I have a copy of Eye, some interesting stories in that (though I think some of the ideas a bit odd in one way or another).

Yes, that's the one. The sub crew of four are almost the only characters present, and Herbert did a very good job of evoking the claustrophobic setting.

[manticore7]

I was thinking maybe going with a homeworld style Ion cannon as a main weapon instead, I figure an Ion Cannon does not need as much room as a mas driver (need space for crews to sleep).

[Mr Bojangles]

I was thinking maybe going with a homeworld style Ion cannon as a main weapon instead, I figure an Ion Cannon does not need as much room as a mas driver (need space for crews to sleep).

Maybe? They are a completely fictional weapon, so you could make them any size you wanted... If you want space for your crew to be able to sleep, have them sleep with the ammunition for the mass drivers, à la a WWII submarine. Or just build a bigger ship.

[daelyte]

An ion cannon is a type of particle cannon; only the particles used are ionized. Due to their electrical charges, they have the potential to disable electronic devices, vehicles, and anything else that has an electrical or similar power source.

http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r ... icle_Beams

Particle beams have a advantage over lasers in that the particles have more impact damage on the target than the massless photons of a laser beam. There is better penetration as well, with the penetration climbing rapidly as the energy per particle increases. Particle beams deposit their energy up to several centimeters into the target, compared to the surface deposit done by lasers.

They have a disadvantage of possessing a much shorter range. The beam tends to expand the further it travels, reducing the damage density ("electrostatic bloom"). This is because all the particles in the beam have the same charge, and like charges repel. Self-repulsion severely limits the density of the beam, and thus its power.

They also can be deflected by charged fields, unlike lasers. Whether the fields are natural ones around planets or artificial defense fields around spacecraft, the same fields used to accelerate the particles in the weapon can be used to fend them off.

Another problem is one shared by ion drives, the "space charge." If you keep shooting off electron beams you will build up a strong positive charge on your ship. At some point the charge will become strong enough to bend the beam. And the moment your ship tries to dock with another it will be similar to scuffing your shoes on the rug and touching the doorknob. Except instead of a tiny spark it will be a huge arc that will blow all your circuit breakers and spot-weld the ships together.

[Mr Bojangles]

@daelyte: I don't know if you were replying to me, but you speak truth. I ran with "homeworld style ion cannon." Since those are fictional, manticore7 could make them in any size; whatever was needed to fit the ship.

@manticore7: If you want realistic ion (or other particle) weaponry, the link daelyte provides is a good place to start. Personally, I like the idea of the crew sleeping with the mass driver ammo, though. It hits home the idea that "This is a warship; it destroys, it does not comfort."

[daelyte]

@Mr Bojangles:
I was replying to both you and manticore7, on the general subject of ion cannons.


I think armor penetration would be essential for a primary weapon against capital ships, which would likely be armored.

Realistic particle weapons would tend to be large, in order to have sufficient energy to be useful as weapons, but the ammo is quite small. One design consideration is whether to make them linear which would have to be very long (probably a dorsal weapon), or circular which would require large magnets (a lot of extra mass, which costs more fuel to move around).

They do occupy a nice niche between lasers and coil guns, combining decent speed and good penetration, but at the cost of shorter effective range.

Might also want to look at Exotic Weapons, such as Relativistic Weapons
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r ... ic_Weapons

An interstellar community might have treaties against using some of the nastier weapons, such as Grey Goo.

[Mr Bojangles]

@daelyte

I would agree with armor penetration. Shielded or not, you'll have to pierce the hull to take the ship out. And since particle beams have mass, they would be a better than laser at doing so.

I would also agree with the size of such a weapon. A realistic particle beam weapon would like be on the same scale as a realistic mass driver cannon. You're likely talking about a weapon that would be spinally mounted (see the ECS America in Outsider for an example). The ammo wouldn't be small, though. You'd likely have large tanks of chemicals to act as particle sources.

As for relativistic weaponry, well, that'd actually be a very good reason to use mass drivers as a main weapon and energy weapons as secondaries. Relativistic weapons need an absolutely staggering amount of energy to work. You certainly would not be rapid-firing one from a ship, and given how much energy you would necessarily have at your disposal, powering several laser and particle beam cannons while you charge up would be easy. Very easy.

Huh... @manticore7, could that reason work for you? Or are relativistic weapons beyond the tech of your universe?

[junk]

well there won't be any lightsabers but I'm leaning towards soft, I know Crest/Banner of the Stars seemed to make use of these weapons (by the way was I the only one who found the Ahb kind of annoying?) but that was an Anime series so I guess that is a bad example.

Keep in mind that meelee itself is not necessery for a loss of the hard scale in a lot of ways.

Wh40k groundwise is fairly Hard actually. While it works on a lot of applied phleb, most of the tactics used are actually workable and do combine a modern military aproach. Yet in a lot of cases meelee is quite viable in the setting.

In part because a number of enemies use it for it's psychological shock value as they have enough survivability to close in without larger issues.

Essentially as long as you can justify it, without breaking it, you're fine. The jedi in starwars aren't able to justify for instance, since they utterly lack the necessary closing capability. And while they can close in against one or two shooters once artillery, explosives and larger units come into play end up gunned down very quickly.

[discord]

junk: which is why jedi really have no business on a battlefield, spec ops or even fighter craft sure but not as infantry on a battlefield.

the best of'em can actually manage, precog and enough speed to make use of it gives a rather significant edge, which could be put to better use elsewhere.

[Trantor]

junk: which is why jedi really have no business on a battlefield, spec ops or even fighter craft sure but not as infantry on a battlefield.

That is what really annoyed me (among 1000 other things) in episode 2, when they wasted all those jedi in that bowl.

[javcs]

junk: which is why jedi really have no business on a battlefield, spec ops or even fighter craft sure but not as infantry on a battlefield.

That is what really annoyed me (among 1000 other things) in episode 2, when they wasted all those jedi in that bowl.

I think some of that could be attributed to bad threat analysis/appreciation, and some of it to rushing around without thinking. But there were a lot of things that have no (good) explanation.

However ... if we start going on about all the things that annoyed us in Episode 2, we're bound to segue into Episode 3 and the Clone Wars series and such. And let's not go there - way too much to rant about there.

On another note, somewhat related, Disney has bought Lucasfilm, and allegedly the plan is for a new live-action trilogy, slated for 2015, 2017, and 2019 releases (in theory).

[Karst45]

the reason why they all get into that arena (or bowl) is because, bright light show are cool!



Dont overthink it too much.

[Michael]

Pleas tell me we're not opening the the great wound that is Star Wars...

[Karst45]

Sometime you must remove those bandage to see how infected that wound got over the time

[Michael]

.....::Sigh:: Very well.
I liked the Original Trilogy, the Prequel Trilogy was also enjoyable from an aesthetic point of view, the story line needed work.
I like KotOR, but since my discs are scratched to hell I can't finish it, haven't played the 2nd one yet.
Not seen the christmas special, nor have I read the books or comics, and Yes, I am interested in seeing how the 3rd Trilogy will go. From what I've read at IGN, there will be a 3rd Trilogy.

And yes, I have heard of Shabby Blue.

[Ninja edit] Shabby is NSFW.