Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

[Arioch]

Yes, it would be fusion reactor. The reactor(s) are probably tied in some direct way to the drives, so that the reactor plasma is probably part of the drive exhaust, and so a) generating electricity is not the main thing that makes the drive work, and b) since you've got hot plasma being ejected at high speed, all you need to generate some parasitic electricity (to run the other ship systems) is to put a magnetic field in the path of this plasma. You might use a steam turbine to capture and use waste heat from the system, but I wouldn't imagine that it would be your main source of power.

So the fusion reactors are just for the engines? They have a separate reactor as their power source or am I just confusing myself?

No, I'm just saying that providing electrical power to the ship is a secondary function of the main reactors.

Ships will also have some kind of auxiliary power source to provide electricity when the mains are offline, as well as batteries for storage.

[Philly]

On a scale of 1 to 10 how utterly terrified are the Big Wigs of Earth Government and the Military of the situation?

[Arioch]

On a scale of 1 to 10 how utterly terrified are the Big Wigs of Earth Government and the Military of the situation?

Well, they don't know what they're up against, or what the international situation is really like, so there are people who will be optimistic and those who will be pessimistic. For all they know, the Orgus may have exaggerated the danger, and this might be the beginning of a golden age of trade and discovery for Humanity. Decisions are going to be made far away that will have great impact on Humanity, and that Earth government will have little say in, so I'm sure there's a certain amount of anxiety, but some military and TCA folks are probably quite pleased with the situation (as they know it). They've fought a long, losing political battle to build a defense fleet without any visible alien threat, and now their visions have been vindicated. Where they were getting their budgets cut, now they're getting money thrown at them, and all those opponents who argued against the Colonial military and who succeeded in getting defense programs cut are now in serious political trouble.

[Philly]

On a scale of 1 to 10 how utterly terrified are the Big Wigs of Earth Government and the Military of the situation?

Well, they don't know what they're up against, or what the international situation is really like, so there are people who will be optimistic and those who will be pessimistic. For all they know, the Orgus may have exaggerated the danger, and this might be the beginning of a golden age of trade and discovery for Humanity. Decisions are going to be made far away that will have great impact on Humanity, and that Earth government will have little say in, so I'm sure there's a certain amount of anxiety, but some military and TCA folks are probably quite pleased with the situation (as they know it). They've fought a long, losing political battle to build a defense fleet without any visible alien threat, and now their visions have been vindicated. Where they were getting their budgets cut, now they're getting money thrown at them, and all those opponents who argued against the Colonial military and who succeeded in getting defense programs cut are now in serious political trouble.

Riight, I forgot that only Alex has definite though limited knowledge of the situation or at least a small glimpse of what the Loroi and Umiak can bring to bear. If they did know what Alex saw I'd say they would be at least an 8 or more.

[RedDwarfIV]

'Cept Sol is quite a way away from the warzone and neither the Loroi nor Umiak knew about them previously.

Hell, given the difference in development speeds, by the time the war rolled onto Humanity's doorstep, they'd probably be on the combatants tech level if they'd never sent that mission.

Of course, the Loroi seem a bit in trouble at the moment, what with the Umiak countering their Farseeing ability, so they'd need all the help they could get if they don't want to attrit to death.

[Zakharra]

'Cept Sol is quite a way away from the warzone and neither the Loroi nor Umiak knew about them previously.

Hell, given the difference in development speeds, by the time the war rolled onto Humanity's doorstep, they'd probably be on the combatants tech level if they'd never sent that mission.

Of course, the Loroi seem a bit in trouble at the moment, what with the Umiak countering their Farseeing ability, so they'd need all the help they could get if they don't want to attrit to death.

It's been stated that sooner than later, expansion by the Umiak or Loroi would have had one or both of them running into Human space without any warning on our part. At least this way there has been some advanced warning that something is out there.

On a scale of 1 to 10 how utterly terrified are the Big Wigs of Earth Government and the Military of the situation?

Well, they don't know what they're up against, or what the international situation is really like, so there are people who will be optimistic and those who will be pessimistic. For all they know, the Orgus may have exaggerated the danger, and this might be the beginning of a golden age of trade and discovery for Humanity. Decisions are going to be made far away that will have great impact on Humanity, and that Earth government will have little say in, so I'm sure there's a certain amount of anxiety, but some military and TCA folks are probably quite pleased with the situation (as they know it). They've fought a long, losing political battle to build a defense fleet without any visible alien threat, and now their visions have been vindicated. Where they were getting their budgets cut, now they're getting money thrown at them, and all those opponents who argued against the Colonial military and who succeeded in getting defense programs cut are now in serious political trouble.

Heh. Politicians will always be politicians. I'm sure a lot of them made plenty of political hay by getting the military cut and those funds allotted to their personal political pet causes (to fight poverty/healthcare/care for the elderly/whatever and are -very- resentful that funding for their pet projects are being cut. Those anti-military types will always find ways to disparage the military.

[Suederwind]

Hell, given the difference in development speeds, by the time the war rolled onto Humanity's doorstep, they'd probably be on the combatants tech level if they'd never sent that mission.

How much time would it have taken the Loroi/Umiak to reach Human occupied space by "accident"?
I have my doubts that humanity would reach their tech level in time.

[JQBogus]

Loroi orbit 1st artificial satellite : 475 CE
Loroi develop jump drive : 850 CE
Time elapsed : 375 years.

Humans orbit 1st artificial satellite : 1957 CE
Humans develop jump drive : Sometime between 2050 and 2107.
Time elapsed : 93 years, at least, 150 years, at most.

Assuming (a big assumption) that this is still indicative of the relative speed of advancement of each culture's tech, then humans advance 2 1/2 to 4 times as fast as the Loroi. Even going with the 4 times rate, Humanity wouldn't have had equivalent tech to the Loroi until around 2450, nearly 300 years after contact with the Orgus.

2050 (humans invent Jump Drive) + 400 Years = 2450
850 (Loroi invent Jump Drive) + 1600 Years = 2450


I seem to recall that a previous discussion said that Humanity going quiet might mean contact would take place in a decade or two, instead of a year or two, given that the war has spurred both the Loroi and the Umiak to increase their pace of their survey efforts, in order to try to find an end-around to the other sides defenses.

[Mr Bojangles]

Loroi orbit 1st artificial satellite : 475 CE
Loroi develop jump drive : 850 CE
Time elapsed : 375 years.

Humans orbit 1st artificial satellite : 1957 CE
Humans develop jump drive : Sometime between 2050 and 2107.
Time elapsed : 93 years, at least, 150 years, at most.

Assuming (a big assumption) that this is still indicative of the relative speed of advancement of each culture's tech, then humans advance 2 1/2 to 4 times as fast as the Loroi. Even going with the 4 times rate, Humanity wouldn't have had equivalent tech to the Loroi until around 2450, nearly 300 years after contact with the Orgus.

2050 (humans invent Jump Drive) + 400 Years = 2450
850 (Loroi invent Jump Drive) + 1600 Years = 2450


I seem to recall that a previous discussion said that Humanity going quiet might mean contact would take place in a decade or two, instead of a year or two, given that the war has spurred both the Loroi and the Umiak to increase their pace of their survey efforts, in order to try to find an end-around to the other sides defenses.

I think you're a bit off in your estimate of how far behind humanity is behind the Loroi and Umiak. According to the Insider, humanity is right on the edge of reaching TL10, whereas the Loroi and Umiak are early in TL11. Also to be found in the Insider under the Humanity in 2160 section, humanity's only about 3 generations behind the Loroi and Umiak. Assuming those are human generations, humanity is around a century behind.

Humanity developed jump tech in 2086 and developed its first particle weaponry sometime in the mid 22nd Century. So, humans went from TL7 (1957 and our first satellite, as you point out) to the edge of TL10 (blaster tech) in around a 200 hundred years. Much, much faster than the major combatants of this story. And, it's not like war and the threat of annihilation/subjugation will slow down development. The effect will be quite the opposite.

Based on what's been presented so far, if there was no expanding war, humanity would have likely reached the current tech level of the Loroi and Umiak in the mid 23rd Century and likely outpaced them soon thereafter.

[JQBogus]

1) When i read the 'three generations behind' thing, I thought he was talking about technological generations, not biological ones.


2) Thanks for the actual date on human jump drive.

Point stands, though. Loroi took 375 years to go from first satellite to jump drive,then another 1310 years to get to where they are now.

Humanity took 129 years to go from first satellite to jump drive, getting there about 3 times as fast as the Loroi, and have had about 75 more years to get where they are now.

The catch up date with these numbers is somewhere around 2700.

If Human tech would have caught up with Loroi tech by 2250, it would mean that humanity would have gone from the invention of jump drive to current Loroi tech in ~165 years. A feat it took the Loroi ~1300 years to do. This would require human advancement to happen at 20 times the rate of Loroi advancement, rather than the 3 times that the satellite to jump drive comparison would indicate.

Maybe you're right, though. War & threat of war does seem to be a big motivator for humans to develop tech. Counter-argument to that, though, is that humans have spent most of their history in that state, so why should they suddenly go from 3x to 20x as fast?

[Mr Bojangles]

@JQBogus

1. Perhaps, but technological generations are even more vaguely defined than human generations. It seemed more logical that living generations were what was meant.
2. Not a problem.

I don't think such a direct comparison between human and Loroi tech advancement can be made. It's not that the Loroi took 1310 years to get where they are now because the research and application were so difficult, but rather that they don't have the same inclination for technological progression. That could be because of their culture, economic structure, and/or their beliefs around the legacy of the Soia Empire. Hopefully, someone can weigh in with further details (I can only hope that I'm not talking complete nonsense).

I think of it like this: It's not that the Loroi can't rapidly advance, it's just that humanity in Outsider (as with actual humanity) has built a set of systems that favor rapid scientific and technological development. We're tool users and we've incentivized the development of better tools beyond that of simple increased survival. It doesn't seem that either the Loroi, or the Umiak, have done that.

[Arioch]

I think of it like this: It's not that the Loroi can't rapidly advance, it's just that humanity in Outsider (as with actual humanity) has built a set of systems that favor rapid scientific and technological development.

That's a pretty good way of putting it. We tend to view technological progression as a steady climb, but it has really only been that way in Western civilization and since the Renaissance; prior to that and in other cultures around the world, technological progression was a slow, grinding crawl with fits and starts, sometimes losing ground when a civilization collapsed. The Enlightenment built a culture increasingly based on knowledge and innovation, and the benefits today are easy to recognize. However, China and most of Asia, despite early technological leadership in the millennia BCE, advanced very slowly over the next several thousand years. This wasn't because they weren't smart, but rather because their society didn't reward innovation and actively discouraged change. When progress became desirable, Japan advanced from TL4 to TL6 in about 50 years. It also helped that they had an example to follow.

The supposition in Outsider is that this slower, less steady mode of progression is the norm for most alien cultures. The Loroi in particular, while clever and creative in their own way, do not enjoy technological progression for its own sake the way we have come to. They have a rigid society that resists change, and longer lifespans mean longer generations. The Loroi technological milestones are sometimes misleading; when the first Loroi satellite was launched in 475, for example, they had already possessed the necessary technology for quite some time, but it hadn't occurred to anyone to try. Humans, conversely, were killing themselves trying to get off the ground long before the technology was ready.

That said, however, I don't think it matters much whether it would have taken 100 years or 500 for Humanity to catch up on their own; they don't have that much time, and they're no longer progressing in a vaccuum.

[Anecdotally, the predecessor story to Outsider, which was about a Human civil war in which they had more or less the same technological level as the major combatants in Outsider do, was set in 2384.]

[cacambo43]

Anecdotally, the predecessor story to Outsider, which was about a Human civil war in which they had more or less the same technological level as the major combatants in Outsider do, was set in 2384.

What story is this? Is this something you're written already? Where is it?

CJSF

[NOMAD]

Anecdotally, the predecessor story to Outsider, which was about a Human civil war in which they had more or less the same technological level as the major combatants in Outsider do, was set in 2384.

What story is this? Is this something you're written already? Where is it?

CJSF

different story, when things were more darker for outsiders ( IE its was an early draft), the current "humanity being very stable . . . hello new galatic war . . . we're so out gunned" is the current story. just as the hobbit in LORT were their for key moments, alex may be filling in a key role.

[cacambo43]

oh. (?) I hadn't seen it mentioned or written out so it took me by surprise.

CJSF

[Philly]

The Terran's use fusion reactors which require hydrogen or at least some form of hydrogen to function, among other things. Do they keep storage containers as their main source or do they collect their hydrogen from the Universe since it is so abundant?

[NOMAD]

oh. (?) I hadn't seen it mentioned or written out so it took me by surprise.

CJSF

no Cacambo43, that version of outsider never saw the light of a comic page, ending up on the editing floor (or PC/MAC trash/recycle bin or backstory notes ). The current story is the one Arioch has been showing us for the past 10+ years of so. Only a prologue and one chapter complete, with chapter 2 ongoing, BUT those here are a patience sort and have suck with the comic. and yes even the forums have gone silence for a time (or very little activity IIRC). Their more active in the summer then during the school year. I joined when outsider it was at page 38 and I lurk more than post (check my average) so I've been around and seen the lulls in activity. This is a normal part of the comic as Arioch RL doesn't always allow for continuous work on the comic and most here understand that and roll with it. I too can't always be online given RL as I'm sure anyone on this forum can attest too.

however, after all said and done, just watch when another WIP happens or a full page goes up, you may find it hard to keep up with all the post ( I sure did/do). Beside Aroich has been active on the forums answers questions from the many followers ( one of us. . . one of us. . . one of us. . . ) just keep watch and when Arioch gives an update or hints of the future story, that usually leads to a lot of posts about it (and clarification . . . when given ). IE the Loroi and Terrain Q/A section have been quiet active for the past 3 months or so. Their a large extra section ( top bar, 4 forth from left) on the main page you can look through to pass the time or the answer your questions about a variety of topics ( ship class, technology of outsider and how its works).

and to add my two cents: Arioch does have a point about tech levels, each race has their own level of adaptation/research. humanity doesn't have much options in terms of R/D (no time and too low in comparison to the major combatants) and has to think about what it could provide to either combatant. As notes by Alex in late chapter 1 the 51st Loroi strike squadron has about the same amount of ships of the whole terrain TCA and scout force combined, and these ship have shields and advanced in every way possible. Think if a WW1 tank (humanity) went up against a modern Main battle tank of today (Loroi/Umaik) and ask what could the poor WW1 tank crew would be able to do).

Their was a topic in the WIP discussion or a separate one that look into what humanity could provide and/or what the Loroi could give to humanity but it happen a while ago ( or was it a forum ago ). IIRC humanity does have territory that could be used by either faction to "flank" the current stalemate and make the war more mobile (as it was in the earlier phase of the war). The Loroi could outfit some of our ships with their tech, but it would not bring humanity ship up to their level ( power requirements and the need to build more ships). it would be easier for the Loroi to give us ships but the Loroi don't really give away ships (besides they need everyone they can produce/ keep flying for the war).Given the lack of FTL com's Alex is going to have to make choice that will effect humanity and the results of the Loroi/Umaik war (as was hinted at).

The whole generation thing is a way of judging tech development ( IE computers, phones, military hardware) and is base off an older RPG tech level the Arioch used to use GRUPS link here http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/tech_level.html ( in fact, if im not wrong outsider characters were base on that old RPG system as a way to quantify the characters and no we've asked to see them all and only got one or two beside most are out of date).

any other questions or things you would like to know about. ( and yes I'll be brief next time)

[NOMAD]

The Terran's use fusion reactors which require hydrogen or at least some form of hydrogen to function, among other things. Do they keep storage containers as their main source or do they collect their hydrogen from the Universe since it is so abundant?

it was shown in the comic that the human ships do have fuel reserve on ships (in the prologue, the scout ships blows up with 5000 tons of fuel). While it would be easier to refuel at fleet base (given the hydrogen infrastructure is present and fuel stored in bulk), ). but a mobile collection would be a good idea and would require special equipment that might be bulky but allow some toping off of the fuel containers. Hydrogen is the most common element but IIRC its not always easy to collect.

[Arioch]

Anecdotally, the predecessor story to Outsider, which was about a Human civil war in which they had more or less the same technological level as the major combatants in Outsider do, was set in 2384.

What story is this? Is this something you're written already? Where is it?

Beginning in high school, I started working on a science fiction story/setting that over the years became kind of a giant vat that I poured all of my science fiction ideas into. It changed a lot over the course of about 10 years from a kind of space opera that was trying really hard to be Space Cruiser Yamato, into a hard science fiction story that was trying really hard to be The Mote in God's Eye. Some bits of it were out written as prose and there was some visual design done for it, but it never really knew what it wanted to be, and never really came together as a story, even though there were some interesting things about the setting. When I started working on Outsider, I cannibalized some of this setting to help set the groundwork, which is one of the reasons why Humanity's worlds and government have a lot more detail than the story strictly demands.

The Terran's use fusion reactors which require hydrogen or at least some form of hydrogen to function, among other things. Do they keep storage containers as their main source or do they collect their hydrogen from the Universe since it is so abundant?

I think most fusion reactors at this tech level would require special isotopes such as deuterium or helium-3 to work properly, so the fuel would have to be refined beforehand and carried on-board.

[cacambo43]

Thanks for the explanation, Arioch. I guess I was had been wondering where the others' had heard of it, if it wasn't ever written out properly, but sounds like it's basically leaked out over the years on the forum (the fact that it had been part of this "vat" of ideas, I mean), with parts making it onto the Insider pages.

CJSF