Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thread

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Mr.Tucker
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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Are the Kikkut still alive, or were they wiped out with the Tizik-tik? (not really relevant to the story but would help shed light on Umiak attitudes).

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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Arioch »

TrashMan wrote:Ironically, the best was to win a total war is to target the population.
Sure, but the issue in this war is that you generally don't have access to the enemy population. The population centers that were within reach of the front lines have already been mostly destroyed by raids.
Mr.Tucker wrote:Are the Kikkut still alive, or were they wiped out with the Tizik-tik? (not really relevant to the story but would help shed light on Umiak attitudes).
Elements of the Tizik-tik and Kikkut genomes were absorbed into the diverse collective that eventually became the Umiak "species," as the Hal-tik co-opted traits that they found useful. However, there are still "naturally" reproducing populations of Hal-tik and Kikkut, though they are probably not seen much outside the homeworld.

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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by GeoModder »

Arioch wrote:
Mr.Tucker wrote:Are the Kikkut still alive, or were they wiped out with the Tizik-tik? (not really relevant to the story but would help shed light on Umiak attitudes).
Elements of the Tizik-tik and Kikkut genomes were absorbed into the diverse collective that eventually became the Umiak "species," as the Hal-tik co-opted traits that they found useful. However, there are still "naturally" reproducing populations of Hal-tik and Kikkut, though they are probably not seen much outside the homeworld.
There goes my most recent pet theory that the Umiak basically run a 'shell' empire with only devastated, over-exploited, and poisoned worlds behind them as they expand outwards out of necessity. :(
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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Arioch »

The Umiak homeworld is indeed an ecological disaster, but that doesn't mean that nobody lives there. It has been depleted of limited resources like fissionables and fossil fuels, and clean water is a commodity, but these are trivial obstacles for any post-industrial civilization that can build colonies on hostile, airless worlds.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Ok, I've got a nagging question which I shall posit to the users of these forums: who would win in a tussle between a Barsam and a Delrias? The Barsam are bigger, have an enhanced healing factor (how fast are we talking here?), but no hand-to-hand combat experience. The Delrias are somewhat smaller (still imposing), but are extremely martial from a young age. Take your bets gentlemen ;) .

EDIT: A related question would be how the Delrias got good at making particle beam weapons. They don't seem very research or craftsmanship oriented. Wouldn't reseachers be seen as ''weak'' in such a physical combat oriented species ? (or is that just human bias?)

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Mr.Tucker wrote:A related question would be how the Delrias got good at making particle beam weapons. They don't seem very research or craftsmanship oriented. Wouldn't reseachers be seen as ''weak'' in such a physical combat oriented species ? (or is that just human bias?)
Delrias Scientists Get No Respect?
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Re: Miscellaneous aliens question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Barsam regenerative capabilities help them to recover from injuries faster, but would not have an impact on an individual fight.
Mr.Tucker wrote:A related question would be how the Delrias got good at making particle beam weapons. They don't seem very research or craftsmanship oriented. Wouldn't reseachers be seen as ''weak'' in such a physical combat oriented species ? (or is that just human bias?)
I don't think that martial traditions and technology are incompatible; one has only to look at the Japanese. I'm also not sure that there's anything "weak" about being smart. My father was a lineman on Caltech's football team.

Also, the Delrias' ancestors established an interstellar empire on their own, before the Dreiman or Soia arrived in the Local Bubble. The Delrias might be "big and dumb" in comparison to their ancient kin, but that's still pretty smart.

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Re: Miscellaneous aliens question-and-answer thread

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Arioch wrote:I don't think that martial traditions and technology are incompatible; one has only to look at the Japanese.
I was going to bring up Japan, but I couldn't think how to word it properly. They certainly had martial traditions, and they certainly advanced technologically very rapidly to catch up to the West. I didn't know enough about Japanese history though, so I wasn't if it was Imperial Japan that did both of those things, so I didn't post it.
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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Firstly I'd like to say I have no idea how this question ended up here. I tried posting it on the Loroi thread and it ended up here. Only noticed that a few minutes after, deleted it, and tried to post it again on the Loroi thread. Again it ended up here. Either I'm losing my mind or I need a new pair of glasses :cry:

Anyway, I think I've phrased the question badly. How do they intimidate each other? Do they do it brawny-style like, say, Klingons, or do they stare at each other like cats? Or perform courtly and ritualised duels like the old samurai, or the gentlemen of 18th century Europe? If I'm the head manager of a Delrias engineering firm, do I beat my (smarter?) research team into submission as an interview? Do they get promoted into my position if they beat me? :lol: Or is that just for personal issues? (in Imperial Japan, they didn't actually do that, they just used a perverted form of the Samurai Code as indoctrination for their troops. It didn't affect civilian lives like the medieval one did. Imperial Japan industrialized rapidly, but became overly beligerent after the military took control of the Government, and their science stagnated. The Zero was more of an exercise in brute-force engineering than a technical masterpiece. They only became techno-wizards some time after the end of the war) .

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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Arioch »

Mr.Tucker wrote:Firstly I'd like to say I have no idea how this question ended up here. I tried posting it on the Loroi thread and it ended up here. Only noticed that a few minutes after, deleted it, and tried to post it again on the Loroi thread. Again it ended up here. Either I'm losing my mind or I need a new pair of glasses

I moved the post here, because it's not about the Loroi.
Mr.Tucker wrote:How do they intimidate each other? Do they do it brawny-style like, say, Klingons, or do they stare at each other like cats? Or perform courtly and ritualised duels like the old samurai, or the gentlemen of 18th century Europe? If I'm the head manager of a Delrias engineering firm, do I beat my (smarter?) research team into submission as an interview? Do they get promoted into my position if they beat me? :lol: Or is that just for personal issues?
The Delrias have a complex system of determining their social hierarchy, one element of which includes the implied threat of violence. Physical size, fighting ability, and the ability to create and maintain networks of intimidating friends are all factors in this system. The intimidation is not "ritualized" but it is somewhat abstract, it is mostly threat but does occasionally result in actual violence. Such fighting is mostly unarmed, and the outcome depends on size, strength, skill, and numbers; it is usually non-lethal, but may result in serious injury.

This system is used in interpersonal conflicts (in particular, in disputes over mating rights), and to help establish hierarchy; it's not used as a substitute for intelligence or skill or business acumen. An individual might intimidate her way to the leadership of her engineering team, but she can't get a job as an engineer by beating up her prospective employer. And because the conflicts can include allies and are not strictly one on one, charisma and leadership ability can be as important as your own fighting ability.
Mr.Tucker wrote:(in Imperial Japan, they didn't actually do that, they just used a perverted form of the Samurai Code as indoctrination for their troops. It didn't affect civilian lives like the medieval one did. Imperial Japan industrialized rapidly, but became overly beligerent after the military took control of the Government, and their science stagnated. The Zero was more of an exercise in brute-force engineering than a technical masterpiece. They only became techno-wizards some time after the end of the war) .
I have to disagree with you here. Even before the end of the Shogunate around 1870, Japanese craftsmen were second to none in the world (the only problem being that they made weapons that were 100 years out of date); living in a martial society had not diminished their skill. When the samurai class was abolished in the Meiji period, Japanese society did not lose its martial nature; it was still a military dictatorship (nominal democratic reforms notwithstanding). All of Japanese culture, military and civilian, was strongly affected by the samurai ethos and worship of the Emperor; in WWII, civilian students signed up in their tens of thousands to sacrifice themselves as kamikaze pilots; civilian housewives joined up in their millions to sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks against the expected American landing boats. To this very day, samurai mythology pervades Japanese culture and popular media.

I don't see how the phrase "brute-force" can be used in any connection with the Zero, which was the finest carrier-based aircraft in the world when it was introduced in 1940. There were many factors that prevented the Japanese from significantly improving or replacing it during the war, but it wasn't because the aircraft designers were stupid.

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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by JQBogus »

Hmm... I dunno. Zero was agile and long ranged, but very, very fragile. No armor, no self sealing fuel tanks. It established its lasting reputation in a few golden months spent fighting less experienced opponents flying obsolescent machines, but, like the Imperial Japanese Navy as a whole, it's shortcomings became evident when faced with an industrialized, technically capable opponent in a protracted war.

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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Being starved for resources was one of the major motivations for Japan going to war, with the US oil embargo being only the culmination of an economic and political confrontation that stemmed back to the end of the first world war and through the great depression. Now, there was certainly more to it than that, but it was no mistake that the Zero was half as heavy as its western counterparts.

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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Arioch wrote:I moved the post here, because it's not about the Loroi.

Oh, ok. The Delrias were part of the Union so I figured they wouldn't belong here.
Arioch wrote:The Delrias have a complex system of determining their social hierarchy, one element of which includes the implied threat of violence. Physical size, fighting ability, and the ability to create and maintain networks of intimidating friends are all factors in this system. The intimidation is not "ritualized" but it is somewhat abstract, it is mostly threat but does occasionally result in actual violence. Such fighting is mostly unarmed, and the outcome depends on size, strength, skill, and numbers; it is usually non-lethal, but may result in serious injury.
I see. Thank you or clearing that up. I just had a hard time figuring out how such a society would function.
Arioch wrote:I have to disagree with you here. Even before the end of the Shogunate around 1870, Japanese craftsmen were second to none in the world (the only problem being that they made weapons that were 100 years out of date)
This is a bit untrue. Even during the High Middle Ages, Europeans could produce better weapons than the Japanese. Folded steel of similar qualities was used earlier by vikings in the 9th and 10th century, before being superseded by better designs. Craftsmanship has no bearing in industrial wars.
Arioch wrote:I don't see how the phrase "brute-force" can be used in any connection with the Zero, which was the finest carrier-based aircraft in the world when it was introduced in 1940. There were many factors that prevented the Japanese from significantly improving or replacing it during the war, but it wasn't because the aircraft designers were stupid.
They created the lightest aircraft possible at the time, with the heaviest guns and best engine. It surpassed all pre-war designs, but was rendered obsolete within a year by better US fighters (which had all of its characteristics but were much tougher) and never replaced. Not stupid, but terribly inflexible.
The militaristic period had its roots in the 1870s, but came into power during the 1930s. Before that was the period known as "Taisho democracy". Economic reasons were, indeed, one of the root causes of them coming to power.

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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Razor One »

Mr.Tucker wrote: This is a bit untrue. Even during the High Middle Ages, Europeans could produce better weapons than the Japanese. Folded steel of similar qualities was used earlier by vikings in the 9th and 10th century, before being superseded by better designs. Craftsmanship has no bearing in industrial wars.
The problem with this has to do with the quality of the resources available to them. Local Japanese iron was rife with impurities, the folding steel technique was used partly to remove these impurities and partly to overcome what impurities remained. Their designs never moved forward because the quality of the resources they had were always going to be terrible and because their isolationism removed the impetus to improve until the issue was forced. For what they had to work with, Japanese craftsmen were absolutely commendable in their accomplishments.

Resources do have bearings on wars, and if you are being blockaded and resource starved as an island nation, you're going to struggle against an opponent who has none of your handicaps.
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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by TrashMan »

Often in such wars, the insanity (or lack of vision) from leadership can lead to loss.

Hitler canceled the development of many cutting-edge stuff (like the sturmgeweher and the jet fighter) and pulled resoruces into stupid, short-sighted projects.

Japan made a big mistake by ignoring the US carriers in the beginning (not that it would have made a big difference in the long run).
They also stopped sending bomb-balooons to the US (a very cost-effective strategy)

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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by RedDwarfIV »

TrashMan wrote:Hitler canceled the development of many cutting-edge stuff (like the sturmgeweher and the jet fighter) and pulled resoruces into stupid, short-sighted projects.
Wasn't that because they were running out of time and resources? Better planes would have taken longer than they had left just to develop them. Rocket interceptors were built because they didn't have enough plane fuel.

Then again, it is Hitler, Armchair General-In-Chief we're talking about here, so I suppose quite a few of his projects that I hadn't heard of could have been stupid.
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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Razor One »

Hitler's main problem, incompetence aside, was that he got it into his head that he could fight the Allies in the west and Russia in the east. At the same time. In the middle of the Russian winter. The moment he did that, Germany went from losing a very bloody and hard fought war where it may have been able to surrender conditionally, to losing very badly a very bloody and incompetently fought war where it had to surrender unconditionally, then got ripped into pieces between Russia and the Allies and divided for a generation.
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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by dragoongfa »

TrashMan wrote: They also stopped sending bomb-balooons to the US (a very cost-effective strategy)
The bomb baloons caused only a handful of civilian casualties and no damage to infrastructure and the war effort. Hell with the censorship that went on the populace at large didn't even know about them, so they were useless even as a psychological weapon.

The only thing that the baloon project caused was some ridiculous propaganda pieces on Japanese media that the 'US west coast was burning from the north all the way to the south'.
TrashMan wrote:Often in such wars, the insanity (or lack of vision) from leadership can lead to loss.

Hitler canceled the development of many cutting-edge stuff (like the sturmgeweher and the jet fighter) and pulled resoruces into stupid, short-sighted projects.
The Sturmgewher was 'cancelled' only on paper, it was hidden by the German high command as a new submachine gun named MP-44 and sent into the Eastern front for 'field testing'. The Germans loved it immediately and when Hitler asked western front generals and troops what they needed in order to turn the tide, all of the people he asked said 'more Sturmgewhers', the gun then entered mass production as STG-44 becoming the first Assault Rifle in the world.

The Jet fighters and Jet Bombers were never cancelled (the Me-262 and the Ar-234 respectively), instead they entered mass production but not only were the jets horrible outnumbered, their pilots where inexperienced and the plane had a lot of 'growing pains'. For example the Germans had huge problems with the landing gear of the Ar-234.

The jet project that was cancelled was the German 'flying wing' jet fighters and bombers. They were like the B2 bomber but even if they were built such planes would be very difficult to handle because the flying wing concept needs 'fly by wire' piloting in order to remain stable in the air, something that was decades ahead of the time (iirc the first fly by wire plane was the F-16).

Generally speaking the Germans had some good wunderwaffe ideas and a lot were feasible but they also spent a ridiculous amount of money and man hours on projects that were stupid to begin with, see this for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-3_cannon

As for Japan:

The Japanese were never ahead technologically, quite the contrary they were behind the US when they bombed Pearl Harbor) but ingenuity allowed them to come up with certain neat weapons:

The A6M, it was a light and very maneuverable interceptor but very, very fragile. When the US found one intact on a pacific island they immediately dismantled it and reassembled it in order to see how that damn thing was so maneuverable. They were shocked with the simplicity of the design and the pilots themselves were horrified with how unsafe the plane itself was for those who flew it. No armor, no self sealing tanks and when those tanks would rupture the pilot would probably be burned alive.

The Zero remained a good fighter as long as there were good pilots to fly it and the Japanese pilots at 1941 were great, with hundreds of flight hours under their belts. The problem is that the Japanese didn't rotate them away from the front in order to train new pilots at the rear as everyone else was doing. Instead they kept everyone at the front to die out and the replacements were so Green that they couldn't use the full capabilities of their aircraft. A lot of historians argue that if half of the pilots lost at Midway (the best of the best the Japanese had to offer) were kept behind to train a new batch of pilots, then the Japanese would have held on for an extra year.

The other Japanese wonder weapon was the Long Lance torpedo, which was a powerful but niche weapon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_93_torpedo

It's long range was great on paper but when the US navy begun evasive random evasive maneuvers before contact the advantage was lost. Then there was the volatile fuel problem.

However on Land weapons the Japanese were horribly underequiped, their infantry weapons were probably the worst used in the war (probably on par with the Italians) and their tanks were beyond coffins of metal, even the Sherman was considered top of the line when compared with them.

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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

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dragoongfa wrote: However on Land weapons the Japanese were horribly under equiped, their infantry weapons were probably the worst used in the war (probably on par with the Italians) and their tanks were beyond coffins of metal, even the Sherman was considered top of the line when compared with them.
Contrary to popular belief, the Sherman was not a bad tank. It wasn't the best, but it certainly wasn't bad. When it was first introduced the Germans didn't have much that could really do well against it. The reason they all tended to blow up so spectacularly had nothing to do with design, the operators kept stuffing in more ammo then the thing was meant to hold.

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Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by dragoongfa »

NuclearIceCream wrote:
dragoongfa wrote: However on Land weapons the Japanese were horribly under equiped, their infantry weapons were probably the worst used in the war (probably on par with the Italians) and their tanks were beyond coffins of metal, even the Sherman was considered top of the line when compared with them.
Contrary to popular belief, the Sherman was not a bad tank. It wasn't the best, but it certainly wasn't bad. When it was first introduced the Germans didn't have much that could really do well against it. The reason they all tended to blow up so spectacularly had nothing to do with design, the operators kept stuffing in more ammo then the thing was meant to hold.
The Sherman is best described as 'adequate' which for the people manning that thing meant that it wasn't good enough, still better than what the Brits fielded throughout the war, all of their tanks were obsolete throughout the war. When it first came out in Africa the German and Italian tanks there were obsolete, short barreled and low velocity guns were the norm with only a handful of Tiger I's sent in near the end. In Sicily and Italy there wasn't much opposition and the landscape didn't really allow tank warfare.

When Normandy happened the Germans had wised up and all of the German tanks there were armed with long barreled high velocity guns and the weakest German tanks (Pz IV) had comparable armor. However the Sherman also ended up fighting Panthers, Tigers and King Tigers until the end of the war. Frankly the Sherman was obsolete when it met the Panther. The Brits managed to upgrade it with a bigger gun (introducing the Sherman Firefly) but still it wasn't enough.

Also, little know fact, they carried more ammo because they needed to score far more hits in order to penetrate the armor of Panthers and Tigers.

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