I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

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Nemo
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by Nemo »


Give the man a medal. Music wasnt bad, didn't think it fit, but the animation was incredible. Can't help but wonder how long it took him to cut all of that together. Loved all the references too. Hud and cockpit displays out of the games, briefing officer etc.

TrashMan
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by TrashMan »

discord wrote:but but but, swords got those pointy things therefor they should be on lightsabers....ouch.
silly clunky speeder was silly.
the whack rolling droid was kinda cool though, not much more to say.
except, non-clone storm troopers is good.


The swords got those things (handguards) for 3 reasons:
1) leverage
2) Balance
3) protecting your arm from being chopped off by the opponent simply sliding his blade down yours


Also, I did it before it was cool:
Image

Cortosis hand-guard tough.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/imag ... 1BOw5QKh7A

TrashMan
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by TrashMan »

EU is garbage. Sewage. Aside from a few gems (Thrawn?), it's all S***.

Fanboys writing bad SW stories and taking things from their other favorite universes/character, until it turns into a chaotic mess as every Tom, Dick and Harry masturbates into the cauldron.

discord
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by discord »

trashman: I know what they are modeled after.
#1 leverage against what? with a ordinary sword you can hook and trap the opponents sword, that would not work with a lightsaber due to a few reasons, simplest is the 'trapped' blade can vanish and reappear at the user whim.
<edit> i suppose you could use the hold on them for extra power, specifically the thumb, but that comes at a cost of stability. </edit>
#2 balance, true the orientation of the edge is easier with a simple crossguard, but there is no edge to orient.... moving point of balance closer to the hilt....there is no weight to the blade and therefor this function is null and void and possibly counter productive due to increased weight.
#3 due to lightsaber 'stickyness' being quite proven, sliding along the edge is much less of a problem anyhow, but even disregarding that the lightsaber crossguards do not extend all the way in, so a sliding blade meet metal, not lightsaber blade....and the result should be obvious.
a cortosis weave crossguard could make sense, but since historically lightsabers are not coated that way it would be of dubious effectiveness,

which leaves us with the following reasons for it's existence.
#1 extra pokey/cutey utensils, which is quickly outweighed by the increased risk of hurting yourself.
#2 rule of uncool(that people that do not understand weapons will add pointless doodads to make them look cool, and fail.)
the last of which was the reason for my "but but but, swords got those pointy things therefor they should be on lightsabers....ouch." comment, the last part was a indication of how this stupidity was literally hurting my sensibilities


and just in case the result is not obvious, the crossguard piece gets sliced and destroyed shortly before your "protected" hand gets the same treatment.

bottom line, silly, stupid and ugly things that are not cool.

Sweforce
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by Sweforce »

The main function of the odd lightsaber crossguard is to allow for an easy way for the wielder to commit suicide by the slashing up the stomach with it. Finally seppucu have been adopted by the jedi order. :p

Karst45
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by Karst45 »

Siber wrote:I don't know about the rest of them, but Ford was still pretty credible recently in Cowboys vs Aliens.
You did not just put Credible and "Cowboys vs Aliens" in the same sentence?

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Siber
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by Siber »

It's not exactly super highbrow hard sci-fi, sure, but on a pulpy action movie level everything worked for me, performances especially. So yes.
Atomic Space Race, a hard sci-fi orbital mechanics puzzle game.
Homeworld Fulcrum, a Homeworld Remastered Mod

TrashMan
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by TrashMan »

discord wrote:trashman: I know what they are modeled after.
#1 leverage against what? with a ordinary sword you can hook and trap the opponents sword, that would not work with a lightsaber due to a few reasons, simplest is the 'trapped' blade can vanish and reappear at the user whim.
The lightsaber behaves like a solid object (otherwise, crossing sabers and pushing eachother wouldn't be possible. Altougg pushing with the sword with locked blades is sheer stupidity). Hence, leverage.
And while you can turn you lightsaber on/off, it's not instantaneous and what gonna block that lightsaber heading for your face?
#2 balance, true the orientation of the edge is easier with a simple crossguard, but there is no edge to orient.... moving point of balance closer to the hilt....there is no weight to the blade and therefor this function is null and void and possibly counter productive due to increased weight.
Balance is not really an issue with a lightsabe,r given that the blade is practially weightless.
I included this for completeness.
#3 due to lightsaber 'stickyness' being quite proven, sliding along the edge is much less of a problem anyhow, but even disregarding that the lightsaber crossguards do not extend all the way in, so a sliding blade meet metal, not lightsaber blade....and the result should be obvious.
a cortosis weave crossguard could make sense, but since historically lightsabers are not coated that way it would be of dubious effectiveness,
Proven? When and how?
And if it sticks THAT hard, then you wouldn't be able to pull them back apart.
And even if it sticks, it can't stick that hard or fighting would be impossible. So the issue simply becomes one of putting more strength behind the move.

As for the lightsaber in the image, are you sure there isn't more of the beam inside the "tube"? Hence, why sliding and cutting off would be impossible.
Image
Image
#2 rule of uncool(that people that do not understand weapons will add pointless doodads to make them look cool, and fail.)
Problem is, most people who make claims like this don't understand weapons themselves.
Also, cool is subjective.
Your cool is my uncool.

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icekatze
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Lightsabers are pure fantasy, so really the only way to figure out about them is by observing how they work in their fantasy setting, and using the properties displayed by lightsabers in the movies to date, the cross guards make no sense.

On the issue of "stickiness," the characters in the movies repeatedly cross "blades" with others with no slipping along the blade. They press each other back and forth, and sometimes even push their opponents backwards without having any slip of the blade. The word I would use is "friction," since there are many things that cannot be easily moved along a surface but can be easily picked up.

I am as sure that there is not more beam inside the tube as I am sure that there is some actual practical purpose for having the tube in the first place, other than providing material to be converted into molten slag and burn the wielder's own hands, or damage the rest of the saber. Even in that "Analysis," image, there is nothing controlling the width of the beam, beyond the crystal itself. So instead of a sliding blade cutting off someone's hand, the sliding blade will make contact with their opponent's focusing crystal, which then focuses the energy of the attack into the lightsaber's internals.

TrashMan
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by TrashMan »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Lightsabers are pure fantasy, so really the only way to figure out about them is by observing how they work in their fantasy setting, and using the properties displayed by lightsabers in the movies to date, the cross guards make no sense.

On the issue of "stickiness," the characters in the movies repeatedly cross "blades" with others with no slipping along the blade. They press each other back and forth, and sometimes even push their opponents backwards without having any slip of the blade. The word I would use is "friction," since there are many things that cannot be easily moved along a surface but can be easily picked up.

Yeah...no.
Crossguards make no sense? You meant to say that lightsabers (or at least how they are used) makes no sense.
It's not my fault that whoever coreographed the fight knows jack s*** about swordfighting.
You are doing backflips - seeing the end result that is poorly thought of and then trying to make sense of it by liberally applying whatever rule you think might explain it.

The characters cross blades - something that is NEVER done in real swordfighting for numerous reason, that "sticky blades" or friction does nothing to solve.

Witch swordfighting, you're always trying to apply force laterally to where your opponent is: If he is pushing or pulling, you apply force left or right. If he's pushing left or right, push or pull. You're always weakest against the direction you yourself are applying force to. Simply physics of leverage.
Also you want to catch his blade low on your (closer to your hand) because that gives you extra leverage. That way you gain more control over your opponents blade, as you need less force for the same effect.

I am as sure that there is not more beam inside the tube as I am sure that there is some actual practical purpose for having the tube in the first place, other than providing material to be converted into molten slag and burn the wielder's own hands, or damage the rest of the saber. Even in that "Analysis," image, there is nothing controlling the width of the beam, beyond the crystal itself. So instead of a sliding blade cutting off someone's hand, the sliding blade will make contact with their opponent's focusing crystal, which then focuses the energy of the attack into the lightsaber's internals.
And what's stopping contact with the focusing crystal now, genius?
Normal lightsabers have a point of origin too.

discord
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by discord »

trashman: neither me nor icekatze said anything about how 'realistic' lightsaber fight choreography are, just that shown effects clearly indicates certain behavior, which in turn indicates physics involved. And according to that shown behavior that "crossguard" makes little to no sense.

on the subject of the 'single split beam' hypothesis i reply delay between main blade and crossguard formation makes that unlikely.
if however it looked something like this http://medieval.stormthecastle.com/armo ... dagger.htm it might hold water.

and on stickiness(or friction, although i am uncertain if that word better describes the effect shown.) it would not really take much for the sliding along the blade move to be effectively impossible to pull off.
and since there has never been a shown case of 'sliding along blade' attack that i can recall....

bottom line, pointless, silly and possibly dangerous to self.

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Razor One
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by Razor One »

I think everyone needs to calm down a little on the crossguard debate.

In my view, the original light saber took its cue from the katana rather than any European sword, though even katana's have a small and understated guard in the form of the tsuba. Light sabers being able to cut through anything fairly rapidly seems to suggest a greater benefit going towards reaction time, which force precognition would certainly help with.

The reason we saw a lot of saber rattling though is because of the expectations of sword fights in films. The clash of blades is ingrained into western audiences from a long history of being exposed to that. Slashing and dodging in rapid sequences would have been harder to film and understand for audiences, so there's probably a bit of directorial influence that goes into the presentation as well.

The saber with the crossguard is a different style of saber that seems to be used by a different Jedi order, light dark or other doesn't really matter. It's a stylistic choice that differs from what's come before, which made its own stylistic choices for equally dubious reasons. Rather than trying to justify it using real life reasoning and nattering, it's probably better by far to ask the following questions:

What is the nature of the Jedi order who uses these differing blades?
Why do they use different blades?

These two questions alone raise all sorts of interesting prospects. Perhaps, in the course of a duel where two sabers are crossing blades, the one with the crossguard can redirect the main saber down through the crossguard, allowing him to stab his opponent without actually moving anything more than his fingers. Perhaps the reason the Jedi orders we've been exposed to that haven't used the crossguard opted for the original saber because it's better at cutting through things than the splitting nature of the crossguard style.

All sorts of interesting stuff really. Much more interesting than sniping at each other about which one is clearly the superior sword, which reminds me of the Katana vs <<Insert Sword>> debates that have been done ad nauseum.
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Hālian
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by Hālian »

The best sword is obviously a Mosin Nagant. </thread>

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icekatze
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Part of the reason why the cross guard breaks suspension of disbelief is because once you start thinking about little add ons that would make a lightsaber more effective, you inevitably have to accept that any lightsaber is horribly ineffective, and rather than crossguards, they could have added a million and one more useful things.

Like, instead of a cross guard, they could add a flame thrower, so when they cross blades, they can press a button and immolate their opponent.

It exposes the silliness of the original idea as much as it is silly itself.


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Razor One
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by Razor One »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Part of the reason why the cross guard breaks suspension of disbelief is because once you start thinking about little add ons that would make a lightsaber more effective, you inevitably have to accept that any lightsaber is horribly ineffective, and rather than crossguards, they could have added a million and one more useful things.

Like, instead of a cross guard, they could add a flame thrower, so when they cross blades, they can press a button and immolate their opponent.

It exposes the silliness of the original idea as much as it is silly itself.
Which is why you throw in a cost, such as beam attenuation for splitting the main saber into three making it less capable of slicing through solid objects or allowing for a proper saber to cut through the cross saber with sufficient application of force, or the flamethrower addon being an incredibly bulky and unwieldy addon that makes quick actions impossible to execute. Under this regime, even claymore style light sabers that require both hands and force application become possible so long as you weigh them down with enough drawbacks to make it a viable option rather than an overpowered combo that doesn't get used for reasons.

I mean, if cross guards like this are that objectionable, shouldn't Darth Maul's double light saber have caused just as much if not more outrage? Why would any Jedi use a regular light saber when they could use the double light saber? It's arguably a better weapon than the regular light saber, but the drawbacks are a bit more obvious and clear to see, since it requires a greater degree of control so you don't wind up slicing yourself to pieces.

Tradeoffs are a thing when it comes to weapons. The katana has excellent cutting power, but struggles against armour and isn't too good on defense, the claymore is a beast of a weapon when bashing against armoured opponents but would never cut through an unarmored opponent as cleanly or as quickly as a katana could. A rapier is wonderful for piercing the joints in armour or delivering a precision strike that no blade could match, but it can't penetrate armour and has zero cutting power. Different weapons have their advantages and drawbacks. I don't see why that wouldn't apply for a light saber and a cross saber, or any other variation of saber that might appear. It adds variety to the universe and takes very little away from it in my view.
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icekatze
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Speaking of Darth Maul... I own a copy of Star Wars episodes 4, 5, and 6. I don't own a copy of the Phantom Menace. The end. ;)

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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by discord »

razor: darth mauls insanity is also stupid, it is based on the quarterstaff(or just long fighting stick, whichever) however, the reason those weapons are so effective is the ability to change your grip around at will and thereby changing the dynamics of the weapon, the saberstaff does not have that, and is in effect only a crappier version of the standard saber, since it greatly limits your movements.
not saying you cant move, just that you have fewer moves available to use, example would be slightly diagonal downward strike, it will cut your leg with the back end and is therefor not advisable or the sweeping horizontal sideward strike which with the standard gets far behind you while the double saber would at the same angle cut you in half.

limits your movements, it's not that you CANT fight with these gimmicks, it's that it gets in the way more than it's an advantage.

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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by TrashMan »

discord wrote:trashman: neither me nor icekatze said anything about how 'realistic' lightsaber fight choreography are, just that shown effects clearly indicates certain behavior, which in turn indicates physics involved. And according to that shown behavior that "crossguard" makes little to no sense.
It does nothing of the sort.
It's nothing but an assumption.

"1. They don't slide their blades down.
2. Sliding the blade down is a logical move.
3. Ergo, there must be something preventing them from doing it! The blades stick!"

It's backwards rationalization and only ONE possible explanation/conclusion. Here's a few more:
3.) the Jedi simply suck at swordfighting
3.) Sliding down never occurred to them.
4.) the coreography makes no sense, and we shouldn't even TRY to look deeper into it.

Either apply logic and science fully, or don't bother with half-measures that only exist to plug holes.

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icekatze
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Re: I sense something. Something I've not felt since...

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Lightsabers are not swords, they're lightsabres. "A more elegant weapon for a civilized age." Real sword fighting is not elegant, it is fast, ugly, and generally over before the participants can turn a phrase. Similarly blasters are not guns, they're blasters. There may be some likenesses, but guns don't make walls explode in a shower of sparks when hit.

X-wings and TIE fighters fly around like WWII propeller planes, but they're not, and it doesn't make sense to discuss the full science of quadratic drag on lifting surfaces while talking about them. And it would be silly to attach a Pitot Tube to an X-wing, so that they could have the advantage of knowing the wind speed and direction in space.

- Jedi are canonically stated to be masters of fighting with a lightsaber.
- The idea that something so basic and unavoidably simple as sliding never occurred to a master is absurd.
- Star Wars is space opera, and has nothing to do with science. The choreography in the original movies was designed to tell a story about character relationships.

I don't mind people making assumptions, but if you're going to insult other people about them, you should look to your own first. Like assumptions about what people do and do not know about something, for instance.

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