Page 103 discussion.

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

User avatar
icekatze
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Contact:

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

On the differences between receiving and transmitting:
Given enough power and instrumentality, it is possible to mechanically amplify an ordinary Loroi individual's telepathic transmission so that it may be readable at interstellar distances, but this is not usually done. Keep in mind that during the pre-starflight Loroi period of internecine warfare, amplified telepathic transmissions were used by the Loroi for the purpose of attacking the minds of their fellow Loroi, and the telepathic amplifiers worn by Mizol and Teidar are for the purpose of attack, not communication. If you imagine trying to amplify an audio signal generated from Chicago so that it could be heard in New York, and consider what that might do to the hearing of people in the surrounding areas, you get an idea of why this is potentially dangerous to unintended recipients. A telepathic signal can be focused in terms of "frequency" to attempt to limit the contact to an individual Loroi, but there are limits to how effective this focusing can be. Using telepathy at interstellar FTL communication is possible, but limited to unusual situations in which the target is a known amplified Farseer who can detect a transmission at a specific "frequency" and low enough power that it will not potentially lobotomize nearby ordinary Loroi, or where transmitter and receiver are in a "safe" location free of nearby vulnerable listeners, or else in such a desperate situation that the sender is willing to accept such a risk to telepathic bystanders. Warning an outpost of an incoming Umiak strike may not be worthwhile if you destroy the minds of the majority of the people you are trying to warn.
- Arioch
Ship-to-ship telepathy would have to be amplified; you'd either have to have Farseer-level telepaths on both ships (who could send messages directly to each other), or the message would have to be broadcast loud enough for everyone on the target ship to hear, which would be disruptive (especially to those on the sending ship).
- Arioch
Farseers are not living FTL radios. A Farseer's ability (and her available instrumentality) is centered around reception, not transmission. Broadcasting an amplified telepathic transmission that could be received (even by a Farseer) at interstellar distance is dangerous to nearby Loroi, and so (except in an extreme emergency) can only be attempted from specially prepared, safe locations. This means that FTL messages can be sent from HQ to Farseers in the field, but generally not the other way around.
- Arioch

On the initial contact:
The development of powerful telepathic amplifiers allowed Farseers on Deinar to detect their counterparts on Perrein, about whom they had been completely unaware. The question of Loroi origins had always been a matter of great debate, so it became a matter of prime importance to make contact with these lost relatives.
- Arioch

There are some other limitations on the capabilities of Farseers to communicate as well, including how quickly they wear out. A breakthrough at a strategically vital position might warrant farseer communication in certain circumstances, but it is not a given. Furthermore, the Umiak seem to have some understanding of farseers, and the Umiak commander said that their divisions would have bypassed the Azimol citadel. If that is a place that has strategic sending capabilities, the Umiak may have left it alone and gone around.

That, along with the fact that -unless we're in for a surprise- there is no farseer on Alex's shuttle, I think there is still plenty of reason for Beryl to think that her curiosity will go unsatiated.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by dragoongfa »

Looks like I am going to have to make some minor adjustments to a later chapter...

EDIT: Which actually are even smaller than I thought...
Last edited by Guest on Thu Apr 30, 2015 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by GeoModder »

icekatze wrote:There are some other limitations on the capabilities of Farseers to communicate as well, including how quickly they wear out. A breakthrough at a strategically vital position might warrant farseer communication in certain circumstances, but it is not a given. Furthermore, the Umiak seem to have some understanding of farseers, and the Umiak commander said that their divisions would have bypassed the Azimol citadel. If that is a place that has strategic sending capabilities, the Umiak may have left it alone and gone around.

That, along with the fact that -unless we're in for a surprise- there is no farseer on Alex's shuttle, I think there is still plenty of reason for Beryl to think that her curiosity will go unsatiated.
Even if Kikitik-27 spoke the truth about a new telepathic masking ability of the Umiak, it would be unlikely for whole divisions to enter Union-owned star systems completely undetected. There's still the myriad ships&sensors outside the so-called 'citadel' systems within the Union. Not only from the Loroi, but their allied races as well. No way none of those would have succeeded in sounding an alert to a citadel, from which point the ball goes rolling so to speak. No, Kikitik-27 was merely bluffing.
Image

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by dragoongfa »

I think that the battle of Naam was the 'field test' of the telepathic masking ability. Whenever a new kind of weapon is introduced the following two phases always happen:

1st: Familiarization of the equipment by the personnel who will use it and testing if the equipment is properly integrated into the existing systems.
2nd: Once familiarization and integration are at acceptable levels, field testing of a large scale is carried out.

If the field test is successful then the gloves are off.

User avatar
DevilDalek
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by DevilDalek »

*Berlygasm*

Finally!

Interesting she is showing more emotion....
Yes, I am looking forward to this flight..
Maybe some human nerve calming techniques...

User avatar
DevilDalek
Posts: 191
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:22 pm
Contact:

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by DevilDalek »

dragoongfa wrote:I think that the battle of Naam was the 'field test' of the telepathic masking ability. Whenever a new kind of weapon is introduced the following two phases always happen:

1st: Familiarization of the equipment by the personnel who will use it and testing if the equipment is properly integrated into the existing systems.
2nd: Once familiarization and integration are at acceptable levels, field testing of a large scale is carried out.

If the field test is successful then the gloves are off.

So are we looking at a possible stealth attack on the shuttle?
Perhaps forcing a crash landing in an uninhabited area and forcing a reliance on human survival techniques to keep the group alive? there by forging a more equal relationship and respect?

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by dragoongfa »

DevilDalek wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:I think that the battle of Naam was the 'field test' of the telepathic masking ability. Whenever a new kind of weapon is introduced the following two phases always happen:

1st: Familiarization of the equipment by the personnel who will use it and testing if the equipment is properly integrated into the existing systems.
2nd: Once familiarization and integration are at acceptable levels, field testing of a large scale is carried out.

If the field test is successful then the gloves are off.
So are we looking at a possible stealth attack on the shuttle?
Perhaps forcing a crash landing in an uninhabited area and forcing a reliance on human survival techniques to keep the group alive? there by forging a more equal relationship and respect?
I doubt that the shuttle will be attacked, after all they are using it to board a nearby armed escort vessel with is part of a military convoy. Also a stealth attack is nearly impossible in space, the Loroi were ambushed in Naam for two reasons, first the telepathic masking and second the clouds of Naam that made detecting ships with non telepathic means impossible at long distances. Generally speaking the only way that one can hide in space waiting to ambush someone is by hiding behind a planetary object (or anything bigger than the ship they are in) and when the target is too far inside the system the attacker would rush out of cover with max acceleration in order to catch and destroy the target before they make a runner at a jump point.

So stealth attack in a friendly system with plenty of friendly shipping is practically impossible, unless the attackers are Loroi themselves.

Minor spoilers for the comic:
SpoilerShow
There are also some small spoilers early in the miscellaneous Loroi questions thread, something about Alex being taught the Loroi equivalent of chess (crossfire iirc).

User avatar
cacambo43
Posts: 301
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:39 am
Location: The Space Coast
Contact:

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by cacambo43 »

dragoongfa wrote:...unless the attackers are Loroi themselves.
Wait.. you don't think...

Image

CJSF

;)

UnoriginalUsername
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:23 pm

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by UnoriginalUsername »

I just wanted to say that when I saw the new page up I gasped and clapped like a small child.

So happy to see the page Arioch.

User avatar
Yiuel
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:18 am
Location: Toyama, Japan

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Yiuel »

For a comeback after a long, long absence myself, my eyes are full of glee. :D
la nɔtʀʏltsɪmœ ʀɛv, dɛ ʒã puʀ la pʀɔtɛʒe
nu vœnõ dõkœ dœ tupaʀtu, puʀ ɛtʀœ sa ɡʀãdaʀme
dœ la site pʀɔtɛktœʀ, dœ sœ ʀɛvœ defãsœʀ
ynjõ dœ la fɔʀsœ dœ tus, nu vwasijalɔʀ lɛzɔʀiɔnɪt

- The Chant of A Certain Army

User avatar
icekatze
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Contact:

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

In the past, there were some discussions about the plausibility of the Umiak sneak attack. I'm not saying they were necessarily telling the truth, but being undetectable to farseers could potentially allow the Umiak to take some kind of "long way," around the steppes region and the biggest Loroi defensive outposts. Normally, taking the long way around is totally useless for the Umiak because farseers would see them coming a long ways away, and all they would accomplish would be greater fuel expenditures on their part and allowing the Loroi more time to respond. But if farseers can't see their fleets, taking an obscure route that requires a dozen jumps or so, might suddenly become viable.

User avatar
RedDwarfIV
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:22 am

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by RedDwarfIV »

I got the impression that the Umiak generally don't tell their military personnel anything they don't need to know. So... does Kikitik-27 have a need to know? If he doesn't, then he's probably lying out of his chitinous arse.
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

User avatar
Yiuel
Posts: 57
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:18 am
Location: Toyama, Japan

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Yiuel »

If their behavior bears any similarity to insects... It may be possible that most Umiak know nothing about what most Umiak are doing. That would be a rather interesting twist.
la nɔtʀʏltsɪmœ ʀɛv, dɛ ʒã puʀ la pʀɔtɛʒe
nu vœnõ dõkœ dœ tupaʀtu, puʀ ɛtʀœ sa ɡʀãdaʀme
dœ la site pʀɔtɛktœʀ, dœ sœ ʀɛvœ defãsœʀ
ynjõ dœ la fɔʀsœ dœ tus, nu vwasijalɔʀ lɛzɔʀiɔnɪt

- The Chant of A Certain Army

Suttrjac
Posts: 25
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:00 am

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Suttrjac »

Wooh he returns! Been pressing refresh for the last year. Can finally give me finger a rest :lol:

User avatar
sunphoenix
Posts: 1164
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:46 pm
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by sunphoenix »

SWEET! New Page! hehe! :)

Ahhh.. the interactions between men and women.. even if alien elf-girls! Wonder if the psychological make-up of men versus women is so dramatically different between the two species Human vs Loroi? Socially, the two species are organized differently... mostly due to the differences in gender balance and roles and on the surface one would think with what we know of Loroi culture.. that would make the usual psychological makeup of the genders interact differently..but I wonder how actually true that is? I'm sure this has been discussed elsewhere.. but I'd not know where to find it. I can't help but wonder what kind of arguments are common between Loroi females and males? :)
PbP:
[IC] Deep Strike 'Lt' Kamielle Lynn
[IC] Cydonia Rising/Tempest Sonnidezi Stormrage
[IC] Incursion Maiannon Golden Hair
[IC] TdSmR Athen Rourke

"...you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is Kill him."

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Sweforce »

Cool, I just sent in a donation and then I see this! At a 100 USD that is a very expensive page but I am cool with it. Maybe I could consider it a payment for what we got so far and then consider a smaller monthly donation, as a motivator. Anyway, time to actually read that new page. :mrgreen:

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Sweforce »

Yiuel wrote:If their behavior bears any similarity to insects... It may be possible that most Umiak know nothing about what most Umiak are doing. That would be a rather interesting twist.
This is a common problem in military operations. If everyone knows the plan, things goes more smoothly but there is an increased risk of the enemy catching wind of the plan. With a "needs to know" approach, things can get awry if the people knowing the plan ends up dead. Soldiers that knows what needs to be done can keep going even if all their commanders are dead. I guess that some kind of mix between the approaches are most common.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by dragoongfa »

Sweforce wrote:
Yiuel wrote:If their behavior bears any similarity to insects... It may be possible that most Umiak know nothing about what most Umiak are doing. That would be a rather interesting twist.
This is a common problem in military operations. If everyone knows the plan, things goes more smoothly but there is an increased risk of the enemy catching wind of the plan. With a "needs to know" approach, things can get awry if the people knowing the plan ends up dead. Soldiers that knows what needs to be done can keep going even if all their commanders are dead. I guess that some kind of mix between the approaches are most common.
The above is both true and untrue.

To put it plainly there are three tiers of military command:

Low tier: NCOs and low ranking officers (sergeants to lieutenants).
Mid tier: Mid Ranking officers (Captains to Colonels)
High tier: High Ranking officers (Generals and Admirals)

Military orders are generally given to the tiers that they apply to. Generals will know the detailed plans that the Field Marshal has come up with. Captains and Colonels will know the plans that the General has come up with and NCOs and Lieutenants will know the plans that the Captain has come up with.

There is no reason for a lieutenant to know the full disposition and decided battle plan of a regiment. However they are more than prepared to assume command of their company if the Captain becomes incapacitated or has to assume an other command in the heat of battle.

As a rule of thumb everyone knows the assigned tasks and plans of those that are two ranks higher than themselves. This both limits the possibility of a leak (since those who know anything important are already in a tight circle of commissioned officers) but also allows for the force to continue functioning in case of a decapitation.

If the Umiak are following the same principle (Likely because it is very efficient) then Kikitik-27 as an admiral knows the plans of his sector commander.

User avatar
Random Person
Posts: 48
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:42 am

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Random Person »

Time to reset ye olde "Days since last update" counter.
Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down? It's not my department. -Wernher von Braun

User avatar
icekatze
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Contact:

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Good old Clicky is apparently a veteran who has survived encounters with Stillstorm's fifty first strike group in the past. For all we know, he/she helped plan the campaign. Really though, we'll have no way of knowing what the shells are up to until later in the story, but I have a feeling they won't just be sitting around and waiting for the entirety of the story. Call it a hunch. ;)

Post Reply