Page 103 discussion.

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by GeoModder »

At the very least Farseers were still able to determine Umiak fleet(s) were going in Naam, otherwise there wouldn't have been previous strike groups being ambushed and destroyed in the system.
No, it more looks like the Umiak in at the very least the Naam system can now mask their numbers, but not their presence.
Image

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by dragoongfa »

GeoModder wrote:At the very least Farseers were still able to determine Umiak fleet(s) were going in Naam, otherwise there wouldn't have been previous strike groups being ambushed and destroyed in the system.
No, it more looks like the Umiak in at the very least the Naam system can now mask their numbers, but not their presence.
I think that they are just able to selectively choose which ships are masked and which ships are not, because if they could not mask their presence then the ambush still wouldn't have worked; since the Loroi would still be able to determine where in Naam those attacking ships were. If that was indeed the case then they wouldn't need to put picket ships in place.

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by GeoModder »

dragoongfa wrote:I think that they are just able to selectively choose which ships are masked and which ships are not, because if they could not mask their presence then the ambush still wouldn't have worked; since the Loroi would still be able to determine where in Naam those attacking ships were. If that was indeed the case then they wouldn't need to put picket ships in place.
Or else this 'farseer degrading ability' works just fine and dandy as is at interstellar instances, and the proplyd material hides/masks the physical presence of Umiak ships for Loroi ships sensors.
Farseers are not reliable 'detectors', they merely 'sense' the presence of certain mind signatures over interstellar distances.
Image


User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by GeoModder »

Appearantly she had detected the 'general concentration' of enemy forces in the system, or the strike group was given that info by other means, hence their presence in Naam.
But a 'concentration' isn't the same as 'exact numbers'. For all we know farseers detect the presence of awake minds, and if there's a significant higher then unusual percentage of the Umiak in Naam in a sort of hibernation/sleep state, farseers wouldn't be able to 'sense' there's a high concentration instead of an average one in the system.

The key word Tempo uses on that page is 'reliable' in my view.
Image

User avatar
icekatze
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Contact:

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

If you want to lure someone into a trap, you've got to use some bait.

Also, it should be noted that the 51st didn't detect the second and larger Umiak fleet at all, until they exited the dust cloud and were detected by conventional scanners.

User avatar
Kava
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:18 pm

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Kava »

Great stuff! Beryl being personable as always.

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Sweforce »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

If you want to lure someone into a trap, you've got to use some bait.

Also, it should be noted that the 51st didn't detect the second and larger Umiak fleet at all, until they exited the dust cloud and were detected by conventional scanners.
I did get the impression thou that the knew that there was an enemy fleet there. Detected or not, they figured out something was there. It is also possible that they seen survivors from the previous battles withdraw into the cloud. Not knowing how many that is a problem thou. Maybe they are massing for an invasion or maybe it is "just" that second fleet there to lock dome of the Lori unions finest away from the real action somewhere else.

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by GeoModder »

Strike group 51 already tangles with Umiak forces in Naam at the start of the prologue. It's the battle 'on the edge of the proplyd' the Bellarmine detected shortly before being destroyed.
Image

User avatar
icekatze
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Contact:

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I admit, there are certainly plenty of ambiguities, and that it is hard to rule out any number of possibilities for certain. Regardless of what Good 'Ol Clicky is up to, I think there is at least enough potential to not dismiss his claims out of hand. His telling the truth isn't impossible, although that doesn't make it true.

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Grayhome »

Awesome! Page 103! Grats Arioch for getting another beautiful piece created and posted. Also, I would personally pay $10 per page of updates via Patreon.

User avatar
dapple26
Posts: 43
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:59 pm

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by dapple26 »

:o Holy crap, a new page :!: :o

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Sweforce »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

I admit, there are certainly plenty of ambiguities, and that it is hard to rule out any number of possibilities for certain. Regardless of what Good 'Ol Clicky is up to, I think there is at least enough potential to not dismiss his claims out of hand. His telling the truth isn't impossible, although that doesn't make it true.
It would be cooler IF it is true and then Alex comes up with a suggestion that saves the day. He is a strategic expert after all. Human contribution to the war: One military adviser. Result: Loroi Union wins! :P

zircher
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:47 am

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by zircher »

Grayhome wrote:Awesome! Page 103! Grats Arioch for getting another beautiful piece created and posted. Also, I would personally pay $10 per page of updates via Patreon.
Well, he does have a PayPal donation link. :-)

I went with $1 a month, that won't break the bank and it might work out well if enough people were to chip in each month.

User avatar
RedDwarfIV
Posts: 398
Joined: Sat Jan 25, 2014 12:22 am

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Sweforce wrote:
icekatze wrote:hi hi

I admit, there are certainly plenty of ambiguities, and that it is hard to rule out any number of possibilities for certain. Regardless of what Good 'Ol Clicky is up to, I think there is at least enough potential to not dismiss his claims out of hand. His telling the truth isn't impossible, although that doesn't make it true.
It would be cooler IF it is true and then Alex comes up with a suggestion that saves the day. He is a strategic expert after all. Human contribution to the war: One military adviser. Result: Loroi Union wins! :P
He's a strategic expert with spacecraft that maneuver at 6Gs. Until he knows even the basics of Loroi and Umiak spacecraft's capabilities, he's at best an amateur and at worst an Armchair Admiral.

One of the reasons the Allies had an easier time of rolling up Germany in WW2 was that Hitler believed he was a better strategist than his generals, on the basis that he'd been in the Army once. As a private.
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

fredgiblet
Moderator
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by fredgiblet »

Also on the basis that they had early successes when he overrode his generals.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by dragoongfa »

RedDwarfIV wrote:
One of the reasons the Allies had an easier time of rolling up Germany in WW2 was that Hitler believed he was a better strategist than his generals, on the basis that he'd been in the Army once. As a private.
Corporal, learn to history :P :mrgreen:

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Sweforce »

RedDwarfIV wrote:
Sweforce wrote:
icekatze wrote:hi hi

I admit, there are certainly plenty of ambiguities, and that it is hard to rule out any number of possibilities for certain. Regardless of what Good 'Ol Clicky is up to, I think there is at least enough potential to not dismiss his claims out of hand. His telling the truth isn't impossible, although that doesn't make it true.
It would be cooler IF it is true and then Alex comes up with a suggestion that saves the day. He is a strategic expert after all. Human contribution to the war: One military adviser. Result: Loroi Union wins! :P
He's a strategic expert with spacecraft that maneuver at 6Gs. Until he knows even the basics of Loroi and Umiak spacecraft's capabilities, he's at best an amateur and at worst an Armchair Admiral.

One of the reasons the Allies had an easier time of rolling up Germany in WW2 was that Hitler believed he was a better strategist than his generals, on the basis that he'd been in the Army once. As a private.
Bad advice becomes a problem when you decides to follow them. An outside view can be useful but ultimately they cannot jut let him run the show but maybe he have inspirational suggestions. Are the loroi really "better" then humans? They have longevity, in theory but they have lost a lot off people and been replaced with what would be children on earth. Rapid maturity are a physical thing, experience takes time even if sanzai allow for faster education. Are they really good at "thinking outside the box"? Do they listen to advice from their allies?

Why do they still run on a caste system when we have abandoned cast systems when we found them ineffective? There is little use for infantry in this war, still the loroi keep huge armies that are virtually "twiddling their thumbs" instead of transferring the surplus into the civilian sector where they can be useful producing resources for the war. They appear to be a designed race, if so they may be worse of when attempting to do things outside what they are designed to do. They keep their defeated former enemies under occupation for centuries, this is a waste of resources, it is much better to make true peace and turn them into allies instead, as we we do. Perpetual occupation makes for perpetual hostility.

If the humans been allowed a few more centuries of progress we would have caught up with the loroi union technologically due to our more rapid progress, established more colonies and buildt a larger fleet. With let's say two hundred more years the tech difference would be so small that it would be easy to absorb the differences. So no, the loroi are not "better" then humans, they are better at some things but they have severe drawbacks as well.

fredgiblet
Moderator
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by fredgiblet »

The caste system works for them. Why would they abandon what works?

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by dragoongfa »

I partially agree with Sweforce here, on the Loroi being socially inneficient; however I speculate that it ain't the caste system that is the cause of Loroi social inneficiency but their greatest gift, which is their telepathy.

To put it simply innovation thrives when the mind is allowed to 'wander' in unexplored avenues but telepathy puts a huge weight on 'wandering' minds due to extreme peer pressure on how to act and most importantly how to think. When everyone within a certain range can feel the thoughts of others and the only way to maintain one's self is to put up and maintain mental barriers then the time to leave one's mind to wander takes a significant beating.

The caste system is a byproduct of this, I believe that it isn't an equivalent of our past caste systems (our caste systems were akin to justifiable slavery while Loroi lower castes may have limited rights but they are not and never were slaves) but something that has to do with creating a relatively safe environment to express ones thoughts without suffering much of a backlash. To be inducted into a caste one has to go through rigorous training and those that manage to go through it are members of that caste for life. I guess that caste members respect each other for this simple fact and that they 'tolerate' divergent thoughts within members of their caste simply because they are caste mates.

To add to this think who are the natural philosophers of the Loroi; those are the limited but well protected males. I imagine that there is a taboo in harming a male and that would allow for the males to have a divergent pattern of thinking, becoming philosophers and breakthrough thinkers. I wouldn't be surprised if most of the Loroi technological breakthroughs (those that themselves invented) were made by males.

Humans on the other hand like divergent thoughts, in fact even within largely homogenous nations one can find any type of free thinker. This is what allowed us to progress when restrictive authoritarian practices were disposed of.

I don't see a way for the Loroi to become 'progressive' due to their telepathy, it's something deeply ingrained in them. Perhaps a mentally mature Loroi civilian population that would migrate to human controlled space would be able to adopt certain human traits of thinking but that would depend on a lot of factors.
Last edited by Guest on Tue May 05, 2015 1:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Post Reply