Page 103 discussion.

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Sweforce
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Sweforce »

If it turns out that what is used to block fareers are technological and can be captured, then it may even be reverse engineered and improved upon. Let's say there could be a "mind blocking" device that could be worn as a headgear and available to the masses. Then when a loroi, or one of their scannable allies could use this to get some private time. This could be a great stress release. While sensory deprivation can be used for torture, some people actually use it as a sort of therapy. Sometimes we just want to be left alone and undisturbed.

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dragoongfa
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by dragoongfa »

Sweforce wrote:If it turns out that what is used to block fareers are technological and can be captured, then it may even be reverse engineered and improved upon. Let's say there could be a "mind blocking" device that could be worn as a headgear and available to the masses. Then when a loroi, or one of their scannable allies could use this to get some private time. This could be a great stress release. While sensory deprivation can be used for torture, some people actually use it as a sort of therapy. Sometimes we just want to be left alone and undisturbed.
I wear wax earplugs when I write and sleep for a reason :P

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RedDwarfIV
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Sweforce wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:
Sweforce wrote:It would be cooler IF it is true and then Alex comes up with a suggestion that saves the day. He is a strategic expert after all. Human contribution to the war: One military adviser. Result: Loroi Union wins! :P
He's a strategic expert with spacecraft that maneuver at 6Gs. Until he knows even the basics of Loroi and Umiak spacecraft's capabilities, he's at best an amateur and at worst an Armchair Admiral.

One of the reasons the Allies had an easier time of rolling up Germany in WW2 was that Hitler believed he was a better strategist than his generals, on the basis that he'd been in the Army once. As a private.
If the humans been allowed a few more centuries of progress we would have caught up with the loroi union technologically due to our more rapid progress, established more colonies and buildt a larger fleet. With let's say two hundred more years the tech difference would be so small that it would be easy to absorb the differences. So no, the loroi are not "better" then humans, they are better at some things but they have severe drawbacks as well.
[/quote][/quote]
I don't think anyone in that quote chain said or implied that Loroi were better than humans. What I said was that Alex's experience means very little given the massive differences in technology between the spacecraft he trained with, and the spacecraft the Loroi use. To get outside the box thinking, you first have to know what the box is. What is Loroi doctrine? How might it be improved? Can Alex get access to simulators to test possible modifications to tactics with?



As for Corporal, that's what I originally thought he was, but Wikipedia said he reached the rank of 'Gefreiter', and that it was equivalent to NATO OR-2. In both the British and American armies, that's a Private. Damn it, Wikipedia, I trusted you!
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

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GeoModder
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by GeoModder »

RedDwarfIV wrote:As for Corporal, that's what I originally thought he was, but Wikipedia said he reached the rank of 'Gefreiter', and that it was equivalent to NATO OR-2. In both the British and American armies, that's a Private. Damn it, Wikipedia, I trusted you!
Its not because British and American armies don't recognize the rank of lance-corporal (or second/vice corporal or whatever other name), that others follow suit. *shrugs*
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Voitan
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Voitan »

I'm betting conservative thinking is a standard amongst Loroi, given unwanted thoughts are a real issue for Loroi morale.

Lateral thinking is probably more the talent Jardin is noted for, and not exactly being some strategic genius, but surely a quality that would make him one, given more practical experience if given the opportunity.

As it is, it'd be only when a risky gambit that catches off guard an opponent would people mistake him for a strategic genius.

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NuclearIceCream
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by NuclearIceCream »

Voitan wrote:I'm betting conservative thinking is a standard amongst Loroi, given unwanted thoughts are a real issue for Loroi morale.

Lateral thinking is probably more the talent Jardin is noted for, and not exactly being some strategic genius, but surely a quality that would make him one, given more practical experience if given the opportunity.

As it is, it'd be only when a risky gambit that catches off guard an opponent would people mistake him for a strategic genius.
I could be totally wrong, but if memory serves, he was the academy chess champion and my understanding was that chess is fairly straightforward and orthodox for a strategy game. Again I could be wrong. That being said, if I am indeed correct, then he may not just be good at lateral thinking and strategic applications of lateral thinking but also have a good understanding of more orthodox strategy and its uses. We are told people in the academy are the best and brightest humanity has and the fleet really wanted him for war games, I think he is a strategic genius.

Whether or not he is the second coming of Bonaparte or Hannibal remains to be seen however.

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dragoongfa
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by dragoongfa »

NuclearIceCream wrote:
Voitan wrote:I'm betting conservative thinking is a standard amongst Loroi, given unwanted thoughts are a real issue for Loroi morale.

Lateral thinking is probably more the talent Jardin is noted for, and not exactly being some strategic genius, but surely a quality that would make him one, given more practical experience if given the opportunity.

As it is, it'd be only when a risky gambit that catches off guard an opponent would people mistake him for a strategic genius.
I could be totally wrong, but if memory serves, he was the academy chess champion and my understanding was that chess is fairly straightforward and orthodox for a strategy game. Again I could be wrong. That being said, if I am indeed correct, then he may not just be good at lateral thinking and strategic applications of lateral thinking but also have a good understanding of more orthodox strategy and its uses. We are told people in the academy are the best and brightest humanity has and the fleet really wanted him for war games, I think he is a strategic genius.

Whether or not he is the second coming of Bonaparte or Hannibal remains to be seen however.
The problem is that top of the class at the academy doesn't mean top field commanders:

General Patton had difficulty with reading and writing and even his best academic performance was considered average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton

Field Marshal Zhukov was at first a conscript in WW1, later a NCO and ended up being credited with a key role in halting Nazi Germany

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Zhukov

Eisenhower was an average student with a tainted disciplinary record, he ended up becoming the Supreme Commander of the Allied forces and later became the 34th US president

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower

Montgomery was nearly expelled from the military academy for disciplinary reasons:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Mo ... of_Alamein

Douglas MacArthur stands as the odd one out when compared with other successful Allied Generals of the time, with exemplary academic performance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_MacArthur

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Arioch
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Arioch »

Academic performance is not always a perfect predictor of battlefield performance (Robert E. Lee was second in his class at West Point with a spotless record, while Ulysses S. Grant was an average student), but being at the top of your class does suggest that you're pretty smart.

During WWII, Eisenhower, Zhukov and MacArthur were high-level commanders (Chiefs of Staff or theater Supreme Commanders) who seldom personally directed troops in the field. The skills that allow one to excel at this level are administration and high-level decision making, rather than tactical ability.

As far as I'm aware, those generals known for tactical excellence (Patton, Lee, Napoleon) usually won through a combination of superior preparation, aggressive action, the willingness to take risks, and the ability to draw correct conclusions in the face of incomplete information. I don't think "lateral thinking" was often a factor in the outcome of battles.

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peragrin
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by peragrin »

awesome a new page.

The technology of this story has been intriguing me for many years. In the limited number of pages Alex can bring one thing to the Loroi that the limited number of pages shown. The knowledge of sarcasm. Words lie, is the Loroi way. Alex can sit next to one of their ambassadors and determine which is truth and which is lie easier than them.

Telepathic communication will always be limited over long distances People are not machines. A lot of telepathic communication "bandwidth" will be wasted including emotions, etc. So short messages would always be the case over great distance. The battle in naam is evidence of that. they use radio to communicate ship to ship.

farseer's detect presence, and living organisms. They can count, and thus know if the enemy has 100, or 1,000 or 10,000 personnel in system. Those numbers lead to obvious fleet arrangements. The umiak genetically engineer themselves. What if they induced a coma to 75% of the crew. At that range could a farseer detect them? It takes hours to jump in a system and move onward. That is plenty of time to bring the crew up to combat abilities. especially if you genetically engineer them to be able to do that. So the Loroi farseer would sense 100 minds, and then hours before combat sense 1,000. They would be out matched. (exact number made up to illustrate point, I don't see the umiak using extreme automation to do the same thing)

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Mr.Tucker
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Mr.Tucker »

peragrin wrote:The technology of this story has been intriguing me for many years. In the limited number of pages Alex can bring one thing to the Loroi that the limited number of pages shown. The knowledge of sarcasm. Words lie, is the Loroi way. Alex can sit next to one of their ambassadors and determine which is truth and which is lie easier than them.
There's no need for the all Loroi to be cold reading experts, when they can simply brain-scan any aliens around. The only species that does not apply to is humans, of which only Alex is present for now. And they have diplomatic officers that ARE cold reading experts to deal with him and one another. Sarcasm is unimportant to them, or to the war.
peragrin wrote:farseer's detect presence, and living organisms. They can count, and thus know if the enemy has 100, or 1,000 or 10,000 personnel in system. Those numbers lead to obvious fleet arrangements. The umiak genetically engineer themselves. What if they induced a coma to 75% of the crew. At that range could a farseer detect them? It takes hours to jump in a system and move onward. That is plenty of time to bring the crew up to combat abilities. especially if you genetically engineer them to be able to do that. So the Loroi farseer would sense 100 minds, and then hours before combat sense 1,000. They would be out matched. (exact number made up to illustrate point, I don't see the umiak using extreme automation to do the same thing)
Farseers detect not only thoughts but some sort of ''sentience signal'' minds give off. At least, that's how I understand it. We don't really know if they would have trouble detecting a mind that is comatose or asleep. That's something Arioch can better answer. Also farsense is dependant on distance and interference from other sentients. They apparently don't count the minds they see, rather they take educated guesses about the numbers present. They would still be detected the moment they jumped into the systems, and then it becomes a problem of how fast they would be in fighting condition. Also, I think the Loroi would interdict even small, 100 strong fleets before they reach the fortified worlds. Or at least scout them ahead. That's what the no-man's lands were created for.

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CrimsonFALKE
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by CrimsonFALKE »

Now all we have to do is wait a few more years for page 104! Okay now its time for me to be proven wrong!

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RedDwarfIV
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Mr.Tucker wrote:
peragrin wrote:The technology of this story has been intriguing me for many years. In the limited number of pages Alex can bring one thing to the Loroi that the limited number of pages shown. The knowledge of sarcasm. Words lie, is the Loroi way. Alex can sit next to one of their ambassadors and determine which is truth and which is lie easier than them.
There's no need for the all Loroi to be cold reading experts, when they can simply brain-scan any aliens around. The only species that does not apply to is humans, of which only Alex is present for now. And they have diplomatic officers that ARE cold reading experts to deal with him and one another. Sarcasm is unimportant to them, or to the war.
What about over communications links?

The Loroi wouldn't have their brain scan advantage, but then, I suppose there's no reason Alex should be able to read alien facial expressions.
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

Sweforce
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Sweforce »

RedDwarfIV wrote:
The Loroi wouldn't have their brain scan advantage, but then, I suppose there's no reason Alex should be able to read alien facial expressions.
Not normally but the Soia made the loroi a very thorough copy of humans, we see that in the comic, and Beryl can laugh. Interestingly thou when the barsam envoy get angered he to are very readable as such. It is almost like if the true soia originated from earth as a now lost civilization and placed these stuff in not only the loroi but other of their created races. However it is also just as likely that this is an author oversight.

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Mr Bojangles
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Re: Page 103 discussion.

Post by Mr Bojangles »

RedDwarfIV wrote:
Mr.Tucker wrote:
peragrin wrote:The technology of this story has been intriguing me for many years. In the limited number of pages Alex can bring one thing to the Loroi that the limited number of pages shown. The knowledge of sarcasm. Words lie, is the Loroi way. Alex can sit next to one of their ambassadors and determine which is truth and which is lie easier than them.
There's no need for the all Loroi to be cold reading experts, when they can simply brain-scan any aliens around. The only species that does not apply to is humans, of which only Alex is present for now. And they have diplomatic officers that ARE cold reading experts to deal with him and one another. Sarcasm is unimportant to them, or to the war.
What about over communications links?

The Loroi wouldn't have their brain scan advantage, but then, I suppose there's no reason Alex should be able to read alien facial expressions.
There was a thread on the topic expressions awhile ago. Loroi body language is similar to ours and they're at least as expressive as us. Even if we're immune to their telepathy, they can get a read on us if they're paying attention to what we're doing. It would work in the other direction, too.

As for reading the expressions of species with less human-like features, e.g., the Umiak, Alex could very well have trouble interpreting them.

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