Did Russia win WWII?

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

Logannion
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:51 am

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Logannion »

Arioch wrote:
Logannion wrote:To jump into this a bit late, I'd like to add that there has been recent historical speculation that it was also the threat of a soviet invasion that helped pushed the Japanese into capitulation.
I think that's true, but neither of these elements "won" the war; they just helped to get the Japanese leadership to admit that it was already over. Even without the threat of Soviet invasion the Japanese would eventually have surrendered; it's just a matter of how many cities had to be incinerated.
Yeah, I'm somewhat dubious about supporting that claim myself, but the article did specifically state that it was the threat of having to fight 2 superpowers on two fronts was a recipe for disaster that was readily apparent to the Japanese. Because even after the bomb I do believe reading that there were some generals that still tried to stop Hirohito from broadcasting the surrender.
Arioch wrote: To say that Stalin's subjects were "disgruntled" is underselling it a bit; tens of millions died of starvation under his regime. If the Germans had invaded as liberators rather than homicidal maniacs, no doubt many of the people of Ukraine and Belarus and the various Baltic States, and even some Russians would gladly have fought on the German side instead of being forced to rally around Stalin. But as has been said, if the Nazis hadn't been homicidal maniacs, they probably wouldn't have invaded Russia in the first place.
It's been a long time since I've read WW2 history, so I'd rather understate rather than exaggerate. I think its safe to say that one of Hitler's worst decisions was to have those territories that were inhabited by 'subhumans' be garrisoned by hardline SS troops. Instead of the less facist regular army units.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Arioch »

Logannion wrote:Yeah, I'm somewhat dubious about supporting that claim myself, but the article did specifically state that it was the threat of having to fight 2 superpowers on two fronts was a recipe for disaster that was readily apparent to the Japanese. Because even after the bomb I do believe reading that there were some generals that still tried to stop Hirohito from broadcasting the surrender.
My understanding is that the Japanese were truly terrified of the prospect of occupation by the Russians. They may have viewed the Americans as barbarians, but that's nothing compared to how they viewed the Russians (whom they had fought against before).
Logannion wrote: I think its safe to say that one of Hitler's worst decisions was to have those territories that were inhabited by 'subhumans' be garrisoned by hardline SS troops. Instead of the less facist regular army units.
I agree, but again -- Hitler's purpose behind the invasion was to exterminate those subhumans so that their arable land could be taken over by proper Aryan farmers. Treating them humanely was never part of his plan.

JQBogus
Posts: 157
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:42 pm

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by JQBogus »

My opinion is that, by August 1945, most of the Japanese leadership was looking for a way to end the war without having an invasion of the home islands, and without losing an unbearable amount of face. The two atomic bombs mostly provided this. Fighting and losing to other (non-Japanese) men is shameful. Trying to fight against atomic bombs, though, is like trying to fight a force of nature, or even the supernatural. There is less or no shame in the merely mortal giving way is such a case.

The Soviet declaration may have sped up the process, but it wasn't necessary to it. And yeah, the Japanese leadership most definitely didn't want Japan partitioned into occupation zones where -any- of those zones were occupied by the Soviets. From the Japanese perspective, the USSR both the history and proximity to try to keep parts of Japan if they ever got their mitts on them.

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by GeoModder »

I wonder, had the Allies already partioned off occupation zones in Japan prior to its defeat like was agreed over Germany between the Western Allies and the Soviet Union?
Image

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by dragoongfa »

iirc Japan was deemed under the US sphere of influence in the Yalta conference, with several key issues regarding China, Mongolia, the Sahkalin and the Kuril islands to be concluded with the terms that the USSR would dictate. The USSR had given guarantees in regards to an independent Korea (i.e. not annexed by anyone else) but nothing concrete about under whose sphere of influence the Koreans would end up.

In the end both parties distrusted each other and went into a massive land grab in order to solidify what they signed, to no ones surprise Korean independence didn't mean a single unified Korea once troops from the US and USSR met around the 38th parallel in what is best described as an unspoken and unsigned agreement between superpowers.

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Absalom »

As far as the Japanese go, I understand that most of their leadership was aiming for a conditional surrender... which is not what we gave them. There were probably one or two who thought that they could still "win" (there always is), there were certainly some who felt so shamed that they committed suicide, etc. Japanese society just wasn't flexible enough at the time.
JQBogus wrote:The Soviet declaration may have sped up the process, but it wasn't necessary to it. And yeah, the Japanese leadership most definitely didn't want Japan partitioned into occupation zones where -any- of those zones were occupied by the Soviets. From the Japanese perspective, the USSR both the history and proximity to try to keep parts of Japan if they ever got their mitts on them.
Actually, Russia still does have a few islands that they seized during WW2. There's been a minor three-way (US, Japan, Russia/USSR) diplomatic conflict around them since the war.

As for the Soviets in WW2, let's be frank: the Germans weren't realistically going to defeat the Russians at any point, though they might have been able to acquire a negotiated truce. One of the big problems that they had is that the Soviets were actually able to move a lot of their factories beyond the reach of the Germans (I think beyond the Ural mountains), so unless the Germans managed to get bombers that could do the job they were never actually going to eliminate the USSR's industrial capacity. Also, while the Soviets never had most of their vehicles working (they were always aware that we would accidentally steam-roll them if the Cold War turned hot, for example), the vehicles that did work would work during the Russian Winter, which was generally not the case for German designs: one way or another, the Nazis were going to have major losses each winter for a few years, which the Soviets could replace easier than them. If the Soviets had been able to keep their factories running (and, obviously, expanding) for a decade or two, only intervention by the Allies would likely have been enough to keep Germany unconquered. Also during that time, they would have had time to come closer to everyone else in terms of artillery: the Soviets had bombers and incompetents, while everyone else was more balanced (except for the USA, which went the other direction with artillery: the artillery crews could guide the infantry over the radio in how to give spotting directions, and things were organized such that other artillery crews both could and did take "bombardments of opportunity").

But, really, in general this shouldn't be too surprising. During the most recent recession, the total GDP that America lost was comparable to Germany's total GDP, both lost and retained. If either the USSR or the USA had fought the Nazis for a decade or two then the Nazis would have lost, because they just weren't in the same weight bracket in the first place. But at least they were in a better position than Japan or Italy, both of which were considered incapable of standing without German support.

As for Hitler and Stalin, it's time for another piece of frankness (mostly directed at Greyhome): Stalin always intended to attack Hitler. Stalin's big problem during the initial attack is pretty simple: he was so worried about a coup that he didn't have any attention to spare. When he first heard the news he was relieved, because his first thought was that the coup might be starting right then. He had, after all, not merely instigated genocides and purges against his own countrymen, but had accidentally destroyed the only strain of wheat that could survive in some parts of the USSR's breadbasket: when last I heard, they still couldn't grow wheat there, despite the passage of decades, and the Soviet leadership was coming to understand it then. The Germans were a military threat, but strategically were actually inferior to the Russian system (the competent generals were mostly dead, but the strategic system was quite good for a hierarchical system, while the Germans basically had the tactical Blitzkrieg: once again, the Germans were fighting beyond their weight class).

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Grayhome »

Absalom a few of your points caught my attention.
As for the Soviets in WW2, let's be frank: the Germans weren't realistically going to defeat the Russians at any point, though they might have been able to acquire a negotiated truce.
The early German push smashed through Russia and annihilated everything it encountered without any significant Russian resistance that I am aware of. That is with sizable portions of the Nazi war machine scattered and engaged across the globe. I... simply do not see how the Russian Army, which had such poor performance in Poland and Finland, could possibly stand up to the full force of the veteran Nazi war machine. The topic of this thread is not that Russia could have gotten to a point of negotiated truce, but that Russia won WWII single handedly, and that any and all help provided by the Allies was incidental. It is a very strange claim I am seeing online these days, and directly conflicts with what I know of WWII.
One of the big problems that they had is that the Soviets were actually able to move a lot of their factories beyond the reach of the Germans (I think beyond the Ural mountains), so unless the Germans managed to get bombers that could do the job they were never actually going to eliminate the USSR's industrial capacity.
From what I understand of Russia's economy and resources before Lend Lease, Russia lacked the ability to produce enough belt buckles and boots for the soldiers needed to fight Germany, let alone the resources necessary to forge the munitions and armored divisions. Without the resources provided by the Allies I cannot see where the Russians would have gotten the materials needed to produce anything. I have heard statements from Russian military commanders and Stalin himself saying as much.
As for Hitler and Stalin, it's time for another piece of frankness (mostly directed at Greyhome): Stalin always intended to attack Hitler.
With respect Absalom I do not see how that is relevant.

It doesn't change the fact that Stalin aided Nazi Germany immensely during the war. It doesn't change the fact that Stalin initiated the Great Purge, wiping out tens of thousands of his best and most experienced officers, dramatically weakening Russia’s military. It doesn't change the fact that Russia was decimated by the early Nazi push through a combination of factors including terrible Russian leadership, inadequate supplies and no real preparation on Russia’s part. It doesn't change the fact that Stalin committed terrible errors in judgment by supplying massive amounts of vital resources (which he would desperately need later) to Nazi Germany, or that he ignored his spy network when they told him that a Nazi invasion force was massing on his border.

With respect Absalom I am seeing a lot of opinions in your post, and not much in the way of anything substantive to back up your claims.
Last edited by Grayhome on Fri Aug 28, 2015 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nemo
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:04 am

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Nemo »

One thing I havent seen mentioned here is how close the Germans got to Moscow and the few remaining factories the Russians did have in their first push. That push was delayed by a month by allied action and bad weather, was undermanned as the Germans split their forces, and rushed to completion so the eastern front forces could be demobilized or sent back to the west. Had the Germans been free to focus their full weight, and planned and supplied for a fight and occupation lasting through the winter rather than a mere three months, the outcome would likely have been quite different.
I agree, but again -- Hitler's purpose behind the invasion was to exterminate those subhumans so that their arable land could be taken over by proper Aryan farmers. Treating them humanely was never part of his plan.
Which is the same thing the Russians had already been doing in Ukraine Georgia and elsewhere, just replacing Aryans with Russian proletariat party members. Great folks all around.

Alexandr Koori
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:20 pm
Location: Moscow

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Alexandr Koori »

Which is the same thing the Russians had already been doing in Ukraine Georgia and elsewhere, just replacing Aryans with Russian proletariat party members. Great folks all around.
Are you crazy?

I really did not want to write this topic.So, if you want to learn more about Russian participation in the war, go to the Russian forums, read Russian books(keep out of Rezun books, this is historical fantasy, nothing more). I read both American and British, they are not talking about very many events and things. The most obvious (to me) example - in one of the books said that all Soviet radars supplied under Lend-Lease. It lies - on the ships radars (RUS-1, 2(RUS - "Radio Ulovitel Samoletov" - "Radio Finder of Airplanes"); "Redoubt") stood from 1938, at the Soviet-made aircrafts our radars were set from 1942 ("Gneiss")
Fighter Pe-2/3 with Gneiss, and of battle of Moscow, 1942.
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fww2/pe ... neys-3.jpg

We got a lot of technology by Lend-Lease, yes, but its quality was far from desirable. And if planes AirCobra, Spitfire, Boston, and cars Studebaker and Willis, machines guns Browning enjoyed well-deserved popularity and were really good, for the aircrafts P-40 and Hurricane used one word - "shit", and tanks M4 soldiers called "Mogila-4-mestnaya" (" Four-grave "). Compare with this nicknames "Katyusha" - a BM-13, "Swallow" - SU-76, "Deerslayer" - SU-152.
Many British artillery guns was did not shoot any one time and used as anti-hedgehogs because British don't send a shells or guns was faulty.

And most importantly - we divide the Second World War into two - with Germany and Japan. And we talks what we a destroyed Hitler's Germany. And Americans - Japan, we only helped them a little bit.

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Grayhome »

Many scholars have examined Russian history books. They're (and there is no polite way of saying this) of very poor quality. Stalin and the leaders of Russia post WWII were not known for their honesty or truthfulness, and the historical fact that Russia regularly and casually committed genocide against... pretty much everyone they enslaved is common knowledge. The genocidal politics employed by the Russians were why their neighbors despise them so much and one of the reasons why the Soviet Union collapsed during the cold war.

Poland, Ukraine, Finland, etc are to this day very vocal on the subject.

Nemo
Posts: 277
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2011 1:04 am

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Nemo »

Are you crazy?
Yes.


What does that have to do with the well documented genocide/ethnic cleansing carried out by the Soviets?

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Grayhome »

Just a link to a video by The Mighty Jingles talking about jet technology and politics post-WWII, I always enjoy Jingles videos and I think you will too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUT5fXmST0o
Last edited by Grayhome on Thu Sep 03, 2015 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Alexandr Koori
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:20 pm
Location: Moscow

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Alexandr Koori »

Books
I hope this books not by Norman Davis and others like him. Just go to any Russian forum and ask. Anyway you lose nothing.

Cleaning
The Soviet Union and the ethnic cleansing - is incompatible things. All Soviet ideology contrary to the division of people by race or ethnic. Social class cleaning - yes, this is possible.

Finland, Poland
Thinking, what Poland and Finland is an innocent victims - is a mistake. In the 1919-21 war, the Poles staged cleansing of the Jewish population (as bandits from central Russia, for justice), but and firsts and seconds was severely punished by Soviets. But don't forget, in Polish captivity more than 22,000 of Russian people was killed. People are not just the statistics numbers - in 1939 Poland was punished for that, in Moscow is not forgotten. By the way, after the occupation of Poland only elite was subject of repression - ordinary soldiers (sometimes even bypassing distribution centers) were just released home.
Finns attacked the border bases, burned to the hospitals with patients and doctors inside, shelled a village at the border.
Finally - not the fault of Russia that Poland and Finland are on our borders, and that the West was Hitler. We needed to protect the area. "The protection of national interests," as now talking. Modern Western policy much cynical.

Ukraine.
Please do not talk about Ukraine. I'm tired of this talk in Russia and on Russian, I do not want continue on English. Here are a few basic things:
1.Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians - are one people, one culture, divided only by administrative boundaries.
2.Ukraine within its present borders is political chimera like Yugoslavia.
3.In sum, I am almost a year (11 months, 1997-2002) lived in Evpatoria, without a word of Ukrainian. Many people don't know main Ukrainian dialect here, just Surzhyk maybe.
4.The occupation of Ukraine by the Soviet Union can be imagine only a madman, Ukraine as a state didn't exist in that time, Ukrainian language was not "standard" until 1920th.
5.Don't ask me any questions about the current situation - for understand something, what's going on now, you are need to be born and live here. All that MASS of information, what I know, even in Russian I can describe with great difficulty; and I speak English badly. Do you want to know more? - go to vk.com, Russian social network, get people from Kiev, Moscow, Lugansk, Donetsk, Evpatoria... I think many people willing to talk to you!

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by GeoModder »

There's (at least) two sides to every history, yes.
I've read that those merely 'repressed' Poles after Soviet invasion in 1939 amounted to several ten thousands officers executed in some forest in eastern Polen after the surrender of the country.

And I'm pretty sure the Finns weren't unreasonably pressed to accede to Soviet territorial 'requests'. No sir, none at all.
Image

Argron
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jun 17, 2015 9:34 pm

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Argron »

Alexandr Koori wrote:Books
I hope this books not by Norman Davis and others like him. Just go to any Russian forum and ask. Anyway you lose nothing.

Cleaning
The Soviet Union and the ethnic cleansing - is incompatible things. All Soviet ideology contrary to the division of people by race or ethnic. Social class cleaning - yes, this is possible.

Finland, Poland
Thinking, what Poland and Finland is an innocent victims - is a mistake. In the 1919-21 war, the Poles staged cleansing of the Jewish population (as bandits from central Russia, for justice), but and firsts and seconds was severely punished by Soviets. But don't forget, in Polish captivity more than 22,000 of Russian people was killed. People are not just the statistics numbers - in 1939 Poland was punished for that, in Moscow is not forgotten. By the way, after the occupation of Poland only elite was subject of repression - ordinary soldiers (sometimes even bypassing distribution centers) were just released home.
Finns attacked the border bases, burned to the hospitals with patients and doctors inside, shelled a village at the border.
Finally - not the fault of Russia that Poland and Finland are on our borders, and that the West was Hitler. We needed to protect the area. "The protection of national interests," as now talking. Modern Western policy much cynical.

Ukraine.
Please do not talk about Ukraine. I'm tired of this talk in Russia and on Russian, I do not want continue on English. Here are a few basic things:
1.Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians - are one people, one culture, divided only by administrative boundaries.
2.Ukraine within its present borders is political chimera like Yugoslavia.
3.In sum, I am almost a year (11 months, 1997-2002) lived in Evpatoria, without a word of Ukrainian. Many people don't know main Ukrainian dialect here, just Surzhyk maybe.
4.The occupation of Ukraine by the Soviet Union can be imagine only a madman, Ukraine as a state didn't exist in that time, Ukrainian language was not "standard" until 1920th.
5.Don't ask me any questions about the current situation - for understand something, what's going on now, you are need to be born and live here. All that MASS of information, what I know, even in Russian I can describe with great difficulty; and I speak English badly. Do you want to know more? - go to vk.com, Russian social network, get people from Kiev, Moscow, Lugansk, Donetsk, Evpatoria... I think many people willing to talk to you!
Is that what they teach you in your schools? are you a community manager for the kremlin? lol

The soviets moved and massacred civilians before, during and after ww2 like they were moving sheep around.
Finland started the war is that it? the nazi-commie secret pact had nothing to do with it?
Just because Ukraine is a "region" according to you, it is ok to mass murder their people by starving them to death?
Relocating -and mass murder of civilian- germans, poles, people of the baltic states, chechens, etc. and replacing them with russians...

Image

User avatar
Hālian
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 4:28 am
Location: Central Florida
Contact:

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Hālian »

Someone please lock the thread before this boils over. :?
Image
Don't delay, join today!

User avatar
cacambo43
Posts: 301
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:39 am
Location: The Space Coast
Contact:

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by cacambo43 »

Carl Miller wrote:Someone please lock the thread before this boils over. :?
SECONDED!!!!!

CJSF

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Grayhome »

Oh no, I so rarely get to hear the other side of the argument. Let this play out please, this is too valuable an opportunity.

User avatar
Razor One
Moderator
Posts: 562
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 3:38 pm

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Razor One »

I have to say that I too am interested in seeing a different perspective on history. The discussion so far hasn't been egregiously flamey, though I can see how things can potentially escalate.

We're not at the ignition point for this thread yet and I'm not in the habit of locking threads because of the potential for things to go up in flames, otherwise all threads would be locked and you wouldn't have a forum (:P), so I don't feel it warrants a lock. I'm more inclined to gently remind people to remain civil and discuss things peaceably before moving to locking outright.
Image
SpoilerShow
This is my Mod voice. If you see this in a thread, it means that the time for gentle reminders has passed.

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Did Russia win WWII?

Post by Grayhome »

Found this online, thought it was interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKo-UPB6Yo4

Post Reply