Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thread

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Grayhome »

Arioch do you have the Barsam religion flushed out enough to tell us what it is? I am curious about it.

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Sweforce »

Grayhome wrote:Arioch do you have the Barsam religion flushed out enough to tell us what it is? I am curious about it.
If so, is it unified or is it split up on several variants that hate each other and throw blasphemer and infidel accusations around? Are there militant variants? Are there those that only use it as a source of philosophy and actually ignore the religious part? And how popular is it, in any variant among non barsam? Is it open for non Soia-Liroin species and if so do template species have special place in the faith?

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

At the core of the Barsam religion is an ancient creation myth that dates back to Barsam prehistory. It goes something like this: the world is eternal, but is one of many managed by an order of angelic beings of light known as the "Gatherers" who dwell in some otherworldly plane of existence that is roughly analogous to Heaven, connected to our world via a radiant portal called the Well of Souls. Over time, the world became corrupted, its peoples living in squalor and strife, and so to remedy this the Gatherers (who could not speak with or physically interact with mortal creatures) created mortal servants, in the idealized image of the native people, to remedy these ills and bring the message of truth: that all beings are brothers, and part of the same holy web of consciousness. To this end, the mortal servants of the Gatherers were armed with great powers, and peace and order were restored to the world. However, it seems that Gatherers' servants were too accurate a reproduction, retaining the flaws of the original peoples. As the ages passed, some of the servants abused the power they had been given for mortal gain, and at length the world was again plunged into war and chaos. Dismayed, the Gatherers withdrew to heaven and closed the portal, cutting off the means by which the spirits of mortals could reach ascension.

Though most of the early Barsam believed some version of this tale, they (not unlike the Loroi) were a warrior culture that was locked in an endless cycle of violence, stagnated in a late medieval technological era. Then a rebirth occurred, driven by the spread of a new form of this religion, led by the prophet Onzir Eutuno. The prophet taught that though the gate to heaven was closed and the connection to the Gatherers broken, it could be restored by embracing the Gatherers' principles of peace and brotherhood and living by reason and love instead of anger and hatred. This new faith swept across Justa, spread by its wandering troubador-clerics (sometimes peacefully, sometimes not so peacefully), and became dominant in almost every Barsam culture. In subsequent generations it became codified as a formal church.

Modern church scholars have expanded the core myth to a galactic scale, identifying the Gatherers with the Soia, and their servants with the Soia-Liron and Dreiman.
Sweforce wrote:If so, is it unified or is it split up on several variants that hate each other and throw blasphemer and infidel accusations around? Are there militant variants? Are there those that only use it as a source of philosophy and actually ignore the religious part? And how popular is it, in any variant among non barsam? Is it open for non Soia-Liroin species and if so do template species have special place in the faith?
The Barsam church is centralized and state-sanctioned, similar to Catholicism before the Reformation. Any orthodoxy will have apostates, and so there are divergent sects, schools of thought and differences of opinion on interpretation, but in the modern era these differences are handled in a political rather than violent manner (for the most part). Some Barsam take the religion literally and some take it figuratively, but with the discovery of the other Soia-Liron races and the Nibiren, the advance of discovery has made the religion seem more literal rather than less.

The prime tenet of the religion is that all beings are brothers, and so any and all species are welcome. Barsam missionaries are active on many alien worlds, with varying degrees of success. The issue of the Soia-Liron peoples being placed on a higher status than "normal" peoples is a potential stumbling block with non-Soia-Liron races; some Barsam schools of thought emphasize this as legitimizing their role as teachers, while others point out that it was the Soia-Liron servants who destroyed the Gatherers' order, and thus are no better than anyone else.

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Grayhome »

Eek, between the Barsam and the Loroi with friends like these who needs enemies.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Arioch »

Grayhome wrote:Eek, between the Barsam and the Loroi with friends like these who needs enemies.
I don't follow; what's your objection to the Barsam? They're practically the very definition of "white hat."

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Grayhome »

I don't follow; what's your objection to the Barsam? They're practically the very definition of "white hat."
How is the Barsam religion or any religion that preaches that one people are superior and other people inferior, anything even remotely resembling white hat?

I do not see how anyone can claim that a religion that preaches that it's people are superior creations of inferior races can be moral. At best it's patronizing at worst, supremacist.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by dragoongfa »

I don't get that picture from what Arioch is describing.

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Grayhome »

My thought process when reading through Arioch's description was:
Over time, the world became corrupted, its peoples living in squalor and strife, and so to remedy this the Gatherers (who could not speak with or physically interact with mortal creatures) created mortal servants, in the idealized image of the native people, to remedy these ills and bring the message of truth: that all beings are brothers, and part of the same holy web of consciousness.
Original species and their civilizations are inherently corrupt and inferior. True civilization and morality stems from gods, others are false civilizations. Those without the true gods cannot be moral. The Barsam were most likely lab-grown shock troops with slight regenerative abilities to make them cheaper to mass produce and deploy. The Barsam gods remind me of the Ori from Stargate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ori_%28Stargate%29

To this end, the mortal servants of the Gatherers were armed with great powers, and peace and order were restored to the world.
Superior races were created to shepherd the inferior species, by force if necessary. Superior races are superior because they were chosen by the divine. Other species are inherently inferior, they were not chosen by the divine and they are, by extension held to a lower degree of respect due to their lowly origins.

However, it seems that Gatherers' servants were too accurate a reproduction, retaining the flaws of the original peoples.
The only reason the superior species failed was due of their connection with inferior species.

The issue of the Soia-Liron peoples being placed on a higher status than "normal" peoples is a potential stumbling block with non-Soia-Liron races;
Yes, many religions on Earth have that problem with other factions they claim are inherently inferior and/or hell bound.

some Barsam schools of thought emphasize this as legitimizing their role as teachers
Inferior species are inferior. Require chosen people to lead them into prosperity, cannot do it themselves.


It's not that I think that the Barsam are objectionable, they make for very interesting characters and by extension an interesting species. However i cannot bring myself to call them morale or even semi-morale. At best they're just being conned.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by dragoongfa »

...At best they're just being conned.
The willing slave is the best slave.

Other than that I think that you omit a few crucial details, the most important of which is the fact that the Barsam themselves disagree on this.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Arioch »

Grayhome wrote:I do not see how anyone can claim that a religion that preaches that it's people are superior creations of inferior races can be moral. At best it's patronizing at worst, supremacist.
You have a curious knack for looking at a set of assertions and extracting the most negative possible interpretation. You've complained before that these descriptions depress you, but you seem to be working awfully hard at finding the darkest way of reading them.

One of the myths of the Christian religion is that humans were created in the image of God. If we ever meet aliens, does this mean that all Christians must be denounced as racists or xenophobes? These myths are thousands of years old, formed at a time when people never dreamed of meeting aliens; Christian scholars can't simply change the text of the Bible because they think it's no longer politically correct. As an atheist I can't say I'm a fan of religion in general, but the idea of condemning an entire culture because their ancient myths say that they're special seems short-sighted. Everyone's ancient myths say they're special. Every religion thinks they're the chosen ones. By your logic, all human cultures are inherently immoral. For myself, I think it's better to judge people by what they actually do.

The Barsam religion teaches first and foremost that all beings are brothers. They are devoted to peace, stand loyally by their allies (who they don't actually like very much) in time of great need, and devote much time and resources to aiding the less-fortunate of other species (notably the primitive Nibiren). Are these altruistic qualities negated because the Barsam are motivated by piety?

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Grayhome »

You have a curious knack for looking at a set of assertions and extracting the most negative possible interpretation. You've complained before that these descriptions depress you, but you seem to be working awfully hard at finding the darkest way of reading them.
Guilty as charged.

One of the myths of the Christian religion is that humans were created in the image of God. If we ever meet aliens, does this mean that all Christians must be denounced as racists or xenophobes?
I don’t see why we would have to wait to meet aliens for that, the Christian (so-called) ethic system is already being analyzed as inherently racist and xenophobic towards other humans. There are only so many interpretations of “those who don’t follow my religion are going to hell”.

These myths are thousands of years old, formed at a time when people never dreamed of meeting aliens; Christian scholars can't simply change the text of the Bible because they think it's no longer politically correct.
Arioch, Christian scholars have been doing nothing except changing the text of the bible since it first came into existence. They’ve been doing it for centuries, I would argue that the last century has been one of the most… morphed of them all in terms of biblical interpretation by Christian scholars. Women and African Americans are no longer seen as inferior in the eyes of the church (mostly) and the LBGT community is beginning to receive a grudging level of tolerance. The tolerance of those three groups requires massive reinterpretation, if not flat out deletion, of biblical texts which have been used for centuries to discriminate ( i.e. torture, murder) against them.
As an atheist I can't say I'm a fan of religion in general, but the idea of condemning an entire culture because their ancient myths say that they're special seems short-sighted. Everyone's ancient myths say they're special. Every religion thinks they're the chosen ones. By your logic, all human cultures are inherently immoral. For myself, I think it's better to judge people by what they actually do.
That is a fair point, I have only a small amount of data on the Barsam to form an analysis with. Can I condemn them for aiding the Loroi, who are mind rapists, xenocidal, and all around mentally unstable? I can guess the aid that the Barsam gives the Loroi is mostly due to telepathic manipulations and that will be a significant plot point in the future, but still.

The Barsam religion teaches first and foremost that all beings are brothers. They are devoted to peace, stand loyally by their allies (who they don't actually like very much) in time of great need, and devote much time and resources to aiding the less-fortunate of other species (notably the primitive Nibiren). Are these altruistic qualities negated because the Barsam are motivated by piety?
The next few lines is not meant as insulting or disrespectful to anyone, this is merely my opinion after a lifetime of studying the topics of world politics, human history, and religions.

I don’t have a very high opinion of nations who stand with their allies when they know their allies are perpetrating actions they consider immoral. I’m sorry Arioch, but I just don’t. I do have a high opinion of nations who stand up to their allies when they know they are performing immoral actions. As an example, if more friendly and neutral nations had stood against the United States decision to declare war on and invade Iraq, ISIS would not have formed and the current worldwide economic recession wouldn’t have occurred.

They could have at the very least protested louder when it became widely known how extensive the United States used torture, damn.

My viewpoint on religious factions aiding the less fortunate is very negative, a view which is sadly based upon investigative journalism and personal experience. It gives me no pleasure to say this but taking food to starving people, waving it underneath their noses and saying “convert or we won’t feed you” has never struck me as a morale act. Neither has taking medicine to the parents of sick children and saying “convert or watch your children die.” Mother Teresa is an excellent example of this sort of behavior, which I'm sad to say is very typical of how religious factions interact with the less fortunate. I do not see it as aiding the less fortunate, but as preying upon the most vulnerable to proselytize their religion. The above examples are unfortunately, almost ubiquitous throughout the religious community in real life and that’s not even getting to the folks who say “Aids may be bad, but not as bad as condoms” or those who try to write their religious dogma into law. These actions cause more disease, more famine, more war, more chaos, all of it preventable.

I’m not saying that the Barsam do this, we don’t have that information yet. But I will say that it would be highly irregular, and a bit naïve, to make the Barsam not conform to that mold at least in some regard.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by dragoongfa »

I still think that you are too negative.

User avatar
Mr Bojangles
Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:12 am

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Mr Bojangles »

Grayhome wrote: I’m not saying that the Barsam do this, we don’t have that information yet. But I will say that it would be highly irregular, and a bit naïve, to make the Barsam not conform to that mold at least in some regard.
On the one hand, I think I can say that I do agree with you on your views on religion; suffice it to say, I don't see it as any sort of "good" thing. On the other, I think the issue here is that you're attributing human senses of morality and ethics to the Barsam. But, the Barsam aren't human. When they preach that "all creatures are brothers," they may very well be genuine about that ideal.

Just because it's human nature to wave the carrot while still threatening with the stick, you really can't just assume that's how all sapient life operates. Such a thing would be highly irregular for humans (you are correct, history holds that out), but we're the only example we currently have. Alien brains can produce alien thoughts; maybe a Barsam can say what they mean and mean what they say.

So, no need to leap right to the most negative conclusion. Maybe just take a few steps towards the darker gray, instead. At least until Arioch tells us about the Barsam Crusades :P (I kid, I kid).

discord
Posts: 629
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:44 am
Location: Umeå, Sweden

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by discord »

greyhome: Considering that the organization isis 'came from' was formed in 1999, that is four years before the first iraq war, and considering that the first incarnation was still called 'The Organisation of Monotheism and Jihad' the basic tenant that there should be only one religion and that is islam by jihad(holy war) seems pretty clear to me to have been there all along.

And if your little buddy(the wealthy little bugger you can depend on to give you lunch money) is attacked by some bully, do you intervene?
A rather simplistic view of the first Iraq war, but pretty accurate really.

Do note, I pretty much agree that religion as a whole is a pretty bad idea, but 'we are all brothers and we should help our brothers.' is about as good as it gets, it will still fuck up and probably create more problems as compared to solved such, but it IS about as good as it gets.

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Grayhome »

greyhome: Considering that the organization isis 'came from' was formed in 1999, that is four years before the first iraq war, and considering that the first incarnation was still called 'The Organisation of Monotheism and Jihad' the basic tenant that there should be only one religion and that is islam by jihad(holy war) seems pretty clear to me to have been there all along.
So you are saying that ISIS would have risen to it's current level of power in Iraq even if the United States hadn't invaded, destroyed the nation's infrastructure, and caused all that mess? Discord please, be reasonable here.
And if your little buddy(the wealthy little bugger you can depend on to give you lunch money) is attacked by some bully, do you intervene?
A rather simplistic view of the first Iraq war, but pretty accurate really.
I'm sorry but I do not understand what you are saying here. I was referring to the latest United States led war in Iraq, which has been an unparalleled disaster and will go down in history as the one of the worst military blunders in the history of the United States.

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Grayhome »

I still think that you are too negative.
Dragoongfa the comic tells a story of genocide, the enslavement of species, planetary bombardments, mind rape, casual murder of civilians on a massive scale, and that's just the opening act. It's hard for me to see that in a positive light.

It's a GREAT story and I love Outsider, but this universe is pretty grimdark, with touches of nobledark here and there.

User avatar
icekatze
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I figured that Outsider tells a story of an outsider in a foreign culture. Mentioning some event that happened before the story even began does not exactly make a story about that event, any more than some random vulcan in Star Trek mentioning Humanity's violent past makes Star Trek a grim dark setting.

Outsider has some elements that are dark, but it is way too heroic to be grimdark. There's no inherent sense of fatalism or hopelessness about changing the character's fate for the better, it isn't anywhere close to cynical or disillusioned.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by dragoongfa »

Grayhome wrote:
I still think that you are too negative.
Dragoongfa the comic tells a story of genocide, the enslavement of species, planetary bombardments, mind rape, casual murder of civilians on a massive scale, and that's just the opening act. It's hard for me to see that in a positive light.

It's a GREAT story and I love Outsider, but this universe is pretty grimdark, with touches of nobledark here and there.
I just think that you let the dark parts of the setting unduly color the brighter ones. Remember that the Barsam 'sacrificed' their independence so they could be a voice of pacifism in the Loroi Union and somehow limit the damage of the hamfisted actions of the Loroi. From my point of view they are a noble society who practice what they preach.

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by Grayhome »

Remember that the Barsam 'sacrificed' their independence so they could be a voice of pacifism in the Loroi Union and somehow limit the damage of the hamfisted actions of the Loroi. From my point of view they are a noble society who practice what they preach.
And from my point of view the Barsam were obviously telepathically manipulated by the Loroi into convincing other races to give up their sovereignty and resources to the Loroi and disband their collective military. I think we already have more than enough evidence to accuse the Loroi of such telepathic foul play given our knowledge of the Golim and seeing firsthand what the first Loroi did to the first Human she met in the first second of meeting him.

That the Barsam are a species which is nominally devoted to peace while simultaneously aiding and abetting a species who is dedicated toward total war is... comically ignoble to me. One natio claiming to be peaceful when they are engaged with another nation during the middle of a war is... absurdly hypocritical, if not outright insane.

I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on this subject Dragoongfa, we'll have to wait for the story to play out.

User avatar
icekatze
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Umiak/misc. races question-and-answer thre

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

There's no evidence at all that the Loroi were involved in a massive scale telepathic manipulation of the Barsam population. The Loroi don't even particularly like the Barsam's political philosophy.

As long as you can acknowledge that you're just making stuff up out of whole cloth, I guess that's cool though.

Post Reply