Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

Voitan
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:04 am

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by Voitan »

Toxic fumes will knock out Stormtroopers! Despite being fucking SPACE MARINES, who are expected to fight in potentially depressurized environments exposed to SPAAAAAACE.

Movie was full of Deus Ex Machinae.

Luke's Lightsaber in a fucking random bar, and it's just hand waved away, for fuck's sake. Where was the goddamn handing off scene from the trailers? Leia handing Luke's lightsaber would have made more sense.

A few X-wings get shot down, "HALF OUR FLEET IS GONE! ;_;"

Meanwhile the Star Destroyers have fucked off picking daisies while the new Death Star is being attacked.

Also Luke runs the worst Jedi daycare, and he skipped out on paying child support for over a decade.

"A New Hope Clone" / 10.
Last edited by Voitan on Thu Dec 24, 2015 7:02 am, edited 3 times in total.

Voitan
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:04 am

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by Voitan »

Absalom wrote:Did Vader ever need to go off on some monologue about his losses, or pain, or the state of the galaxy to fuel his power?
Phantom pain from his lost legs, burn scars, and fucked up lungs.

Also MUH PADME ;_;

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by dragoongfa »

Arioch wrote: Well, JJ and Lawrence Kasdan (who co-wrote the script) don't seem to know or care much about the scale of the galaxy, as flights between planets take only minutes, and Starkiller Base can fire beams at planets that are presumably in other star systems, and the destruction of those planets can be seen in broad daylight from Takodana, which was presumably in a different star system (the official map shows Starkiller, Takodana, and D'Qar (the Resistance base) as being thousands of light years apart). Not the biggest plot problem in the movie, but no points for technical sense there.
I present you Star Trek into Darkness: How it should have ended.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N15J4ibej8

In short, they do that a LOT.

fredgiblet
Moderator
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by fredgiblet »

Arioch wrote:I just saw it earlier today, and I must admit I was disappointed. It's not "prequels" bad -- the acting and direction are fine -- but the story seemed haphazard. Stuff happened... just because. Characters like each other... because, I guess the script says they're supposed to. R2-D2 wakes from his hibernation with critical information at just right moment... because.

The whole "Rey can use Jedi mind tricks and wield a lightsaber better than Kylo Ren, with absolutely no training" is a bit lame, but is essentially the same shlock as "Cadet Kirk can be made captain of a Starship even though there are about 100 more senior officers on board." J.J. doesn't seem to have any interest in the rules of how his worlds operate. Stuff just happens.


Kylo Ren initially seemed a bit dangerous, but he's just been beaten in single combat by a complete neophyte. We're supposed to believe that this is the guy who trashed Luke's Jedi training program?


Pretty much my same thoughts.
The New Republic seems as impotent as the old one -- apparently they rely on an external "Resistance" to oppose the First Order. They evidently learned nothing from the previous 6 movies.
My understanding, which is NOT covered in the movie and so may be wrong, is that the First Order is the Imperial Remnant and the Resistance is fighting a guerilla war inside their borders. The New Republic and the Imperial Remnant are SUPPOSEDLY at peace, but the NR supports the Resistance.
Absalom wrote:I've been thinking about that, actually: did R2-D2 wake up just a bit after Rey first spoke in that room? I'm not saying JJ wouldn't do things randomly, but the timing (which I wasn't watching for when I saw the movie) seems fairly well aligned.
IIRC Abrams said that R2 was woken up by BB-8 arriving with the rest of the map, it just took a while because he's old.
Arioch wrote:My point is that the guy who is supposed to be the scary villain just got his ass kicked by the young hero in their first encounter, even before she got the training which she is evidently about to receive. How is Kylo Ren supposed to be a threat when we know that Rey is already more powerful than him?
To be fair 8 will probably include training montages for BOTH of them, but yeah, the fact that he's defeated so handily doesn't bode well.
Well, JJ and Lawrence Kasdan (who co-wrote the script) don't seem to know or care much about the scale of the galaxy, as flights between planets take only minutes, and Starkiller Base can fire beams at planets that are presumably in other star systems, and the destruction of those planets can be seen in broad daylight from Takodana, which was presumably in a different star system (the official map shows Starkiller, Takodana, and D'Qar (the Resistance base) as being thousands of light years apart). Not the biggest plot problem in the movie, but no points for technical sense there.
Abrams being Abrams. Remember the thing with Vulcan in the first Star Trek?
Mr Bojangles wrote:Was anyone else put off by how easily everyone just ignored the destruction of the political base of the NR? And apparently a chunk of their military power (mention is made of losing their fleet)?
Eh, by that point I wasn't expected verisimilitude.

User avatar
Count Casimir
Moderator
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:50 pm

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by Count Casimir »

being a huge Star Wars nerd I can say it was fun, but there's no way it'll replace the good parts of EU as "canon" in my head. It felt way too detached even from the other movies to really offer quite that much spectacle. I'd type up all my complaints if I didn't have to use On-Screen keyboard right now, but my major bones to pick are:

-Who cares about the Hosnian System? Why did it matter?
-Where are all the starships?!
Ashrain is best rain.

fredgiblet
Moderator
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by fredgiblet »

Count Casimir wrote:being a huge Star Wars nerd I can say it was fun, but there's no way it'll replace the good parts of EU as "canon" in my head. It felt way too detached even from the other movies to really offer quite that much spectacle. I'd type up all my complaints if I didn't have to use On-Screen keyboard right now, but my major bones to pick are:
I feel your pain. My mechanical keyboard broke and until the replacement arrives I've gotta use my mom's shitty ergo keyboard.
-Who cares about the Hosnian System? Why did it matter?
It's the capital of the New Republic apparently, just one more crucial detail left out of the movie.

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by Absalom »

Arioch wrote:and Starkiller Base can fire beams at planets that are presumably in other star systems,
This one I'm barely willing to give them a pass on, because of the mention of "hyper light" or something of the sort a while after it first fired (I think during the tactical meeting scene?). Star Trek techno-babble, sure, but at least he mimed the effort.
Arioch wrote:and the destruction of those planets can be seen in broad daylight from Takodana, which was presumably in a different star system
And this is why I think he needs a refresher course on sci-fi.
Mr Bojangles wrote:
Arioch wrote:
Absalom wrote:Question: did it seem a bit rushed to anyone else?
It seemed very rushed. I think the story could have benefited from a few quiet moments in which the characters get to know each other.
Oh, thank goodness, it wasn't just me. JJ crammed way too much into the movie. I think that it would've benefited the plot to have narrowed the focus.
Yeah, it was far too action-movie for the start of a new trilogy/quintet/whatever the movie-count is going to be for this set.
Mr Bojangles wrote:My impression of Kylo Ren was that he was very much a wanna-be Sith, a poser. Even after he killed his father he didn't seem any more evil or "Dark Side." At the end, I had the impression that he was wondering "Why am I not more of an evil badass? WHYYYYYYY?!?!?!" (that should be read as "NOOOOOOO").
Agreed. Judging from Snoke's reactions afterwards, I think almost getting his face chopped off got him further on the career front.
Mr Bojangles wrote:And, now, my question for the group: Was anyone else put off by how easily everyone just ignored the destruction of the political base of the NR? And apparently a chunk of their military power (mention is made of losing their fleet)?
It was clumsy, but I think passingly justified. Ideally they should have had someone react to it more openly, but it isn't as if some trained Jedi was on-screen, and everyone was sort of rushed at the time. They should have done that better, but it's passable. Just an example of the rushed feeling of the movie, I figure.
Voitan wrote:Toxic fumes will knock out Stormtroopers! Despite being fucking SPACE MARINES, who are expected to fight in potentially depressurized environments exposed to SPAAAAAACE.
No, no, those are Clone Troopers, which surely have been entirely retired, or "retired". No, Storm Troopers are Imperial Guard.
Voitan wrote:Luke's Lightsaber in a fucking random bar, and it's just hand waved away, for fuck's sake. Where was the goddamn handing off scene from the trailers? Leia handing Luke's lightsaber would have made more sense.
According to an interview JJ did, the trailers were made before editing was finished. The character that did the hand-off didn't have a sensible reason to go to the Resistance base, so the scene got cut. Besides, then they would have needed to do a cheesy passing-of-the-baton scene, and corny nostalgia was NOT going to help, so they probably made the right choice there (unless the character's lines were good enough in that bit to overwhelm the cornyness).
Voitan wrote:
Absalom wrote:Did Vader ever need to go off on some monologue about his losses, or pain, or the state of the galaxy to fuel his power?
Phantom pain from his lost legs, burn scars, and fucked up lungs.

Also MUH PADME ;_;
And yet he never needed to emote his pain onto his MySpace page to take advantage to it.

User avatar
peragrin
Posts: 24
Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:51 pm

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by peragrin »

They broke the Expand Universe. It is now called Legends. Anything that hasn't appeared on TV is no longer cannon. This is a good thing as Chewie is dead in the expanded universe.

As for Kylo Ren, even his master could sense his light side presence. It was still in him. You can't be fully strong in the dark side with some light side feelings still. Kylo was like a whiny kid. He might have been among the older students when he killed luke's new jedi order.

This is also something that breaks the EU/Legends. Luke doesn't start the new jedi order for 15 years after the Battle of Yavin. In this new continuity he starts it much sooner.

Fin, was abducted as a child, brainwashed. The first order doesn't care about child labor laws. As such to keep the kids close they assign them menial jobs as they age, progressively giving them the skills and forced loyalty need to be storm troopers.

Rey is a pilot because she is a scavenger and needs to be able to pilot things. Luke was given an x-wing with zero formal training too. Rey can repair things due to her scavenger skills. Also if you watch her lightsaber skills they are laughable. she does little more than swipe at trees.she does so very aggressively though. The biggest challenge for an expert is a creative novice who doesn't know the limits. Also she is on the verge of losing only winning because the ground broke apart between them.

Overall yes the plot is similar to A New Hope (4). however it has good acting, isn't campy like the prequels, about my only complaint is that it is fairly fast paced.

As for the cannon. even the EU/legends had several hyperspace cannons. what confused me is if they drain a star for power what did they use for power the first time they fired it? Did they move the planet?

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by Arioch »

Though it's not clearly stated in the movie, apparently the Starkiller could move in a similar manner to the Death Star. The aforementioned official map identifies the "origin point" of Starkiller Base, implying that it could move. And, of course, the need for a sun to power it requires it to be able to move.

fredgiblet
Moderator
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by fredgiblet »

peragrin wrote:They broke the Expand Universe. It is now called Legends. Anything that hasn't appeared on TV is no longer cannon. This is a good thing as Chewie is dead in the expanded universe.
And Han is dead in the canon universe. Not a good trade IMO.
Rey is a pilot because she is a scavenger and needs to be able to pilot things.
Doesn't really follow, as a scavenger she needs to be able to strip things that COULD fly, if they CAN fly then they probably aren't going to be left behind to be stripped.
Luke was given an x-wing with zero formal training too.
Luke knew how to fly the T-16, which, IIRC, was made by the same people that made the X-Wing and has very similar controls.
As for the cannon. even the EU/legends had several hyperspace cannons. what confused me is if they drain a star for power what did they use for power the first time they fired it? Did they move the planet?
I would guess that not even JJ knows.

User avatar
Mr Bojangles
Posts: 283
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:12 am

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by Mr Bojangles »

Absalom wrote:
Mr Bojangles wrote:My impression of Kylo Ren was that he was very much a wanna-be Sith, a poser. Even after he killed his father he didn't seem any more evil or "Dark Side." At the end, I had the impression that he was wondering "Why am I not more of an evil badass? WHYYYYYYY?!?!?!" (that should be read as "NOOOOOOO").
Agreed. Judging from Snoke's reactions afterwards, I think almost getting his face chopped off got him further on the career front.
Yeah, he didn't seem too displeased with Ren's tribulations. Quite the opposite, I thought.
Absalom wrote:
Mr Bojangles wrote:And, now, my question for the group: Was anyone else put off by how easily everyone just ignored the destruction of the political base of the NR? And apparently a chunk of their military power (mention is made of losing their fleet)?
It was clumsy, but I think passingly justified. Ideally they should have had someone react to it more openly, but it isn't as if some trained Jedi was on-screen, and everyone was sort of rushed at the time. They should have done that better, but it's passable. Just an example of the rushed feeling of the movie, I figure.
I think I'd be more inclined to accept that explanation if it weren't for the fact that it seemed a good number of the main characters ended up watching the event happen. I definitely agree that it was clumsily handled and could have been done better. Hopefully, the next episode will deal with the fallout.
fredgiblet wrote: I would guess that not even JJ knows.
Yeah, that's probably the answer to a number of the issues pointed out in this thread.

fredgiblet
Moderator
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by fredgiblet »

Mr Bojangles wrote:Yeah, that's probably the answer to a number of the issues pointed out in this thread.
Remember that he made his career out of a show where they made shit up as they went along.

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by Grayhome »

So! Just got back from watching it. Initial thoughts:

Where are the starships?

The villains are pathetic. Just flat out pitiful. Darth cry-for-his-mommy was just... ugh. Aaaaand he crushed Luke's new Jedi order. Ok.

What happened to the space fleets?

The female hero picks up a lightsaber and MLG no-scopes the Dragon of the movie in their first fight, who has been personally trained by Luke Skywalker and a Sith lord (if anyone says she was victorious because said dragon was already wounded be quiet you know nothing of the Sith).

This galaxy features an industrial capacity that is the stuff an of engineer's wet dreams, where are the star fleets?

The dragon had trouble dealing with a "plumber" class ex-trooper.

What happened to the space fleets?

Who's Ginormo-McVoldermort on the big toilet and why is it I consider him to be a nonthreat whenever I see him?

Where are the starships?

Absalom
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:33 am

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by Absalom »

Grayhome wrote:Darth cry-for-his-mommy was just... ugh.
You shouldn't humor him like that.
Grayhome wrote:personally trained by Luke Skywalker and a Sith lord (if anyone says she was victorious because said dragon was already wounded be quiet you know nothing of the Sith).
Pretty sure there are precisely 0 Sith in this one. We're dealing with "honorable mentions" and "also ran"s here, not actual gold (or silver, or bronze, or copper, or tin, or lead...) medalists.
Grayhome wrote:This galaxy features an industrial capacity that is the stuff an of engineer's wet dreams, where are the star fleets?

The dragon had trouble dealing with a "plumber" class ex-trooper.
All things considered, I can only assume the starships are busy unclogging the plumbing.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by dragoongfa »

Regarding the Starkiller thingy...

Am I the only one who wonders how the Republic didn't notice it being built?

Did they run out of Bothans sometime in the past 30 years?

fredgiblet
Moderator
Posts: 983
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 4:02 pm

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by fredgiblet »

Grayhome wrote:The female hero picks up a lightsaber and MLG no-scopes the Dragon of the movie in their first fight, who has been personally trained by Luke Skywalker and a Sith lord (if anyone says she was victorious because said dragon was already wounded be quiet you know nothing of the Sith).
Few quibbles. It's highly unlikely that Luke, in the absence of Sith at the time, placed a heavy emphasis on lightsaber combat, he wasn't that great of a fighter himself (only winning when he gave in to the dark side at the same time Vader was having his doubts). So Kylo probably isn't that great of a fighter either.
dragoongfa wrote:Regarding the Starkiller thingy...

Am I the only one who wonders how the Republic didn't notice it being built?

Did they run out of Bothans sometime in the past 30 years?
Remember that Death Star II's existence was LEAKED, it was a trap. For Death Star part 1 it's not really explained how it was discovered, but it was likely because the Senate still existed, by RotJ there's no more Senate and likely by TFA there's even tighter controls on information in the Imperial Remnant.

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by Grayhome »

It's highly unlikely that Luke, in the absence of Sith at the time, placed a heavy emphasis on lightsaber combat, he wasn't that great of a fighter himself (only winning when he gave in to the dark side at the same time Vader was having his doubts).
Image
Please read some of the books from the expanded universe. Especially the "Young Jedi Knights" series, which delves into the training of young Jedi. A heavy emphasis upon lightsaber training is integral for all Jedi, as the Sith were not the only threat that existed in the Star Wars Universe. Not by a long shot.



So Kylo probably isn't that great of a fighter either.
Image
Exactly. Yet he slaughters the entirety of Luke's new Jedi Order.


It was just a bad movie, in my opinion. It shat on all the lore. There was a massive amount of Star Wars expanded universe lore they could have drawn upon to make an amazing movie. As it is, it's just an excuse to rehash an old series for a new line of toys and games to peddle to kids.
Last edited by Grayhome on Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Siber
Posts: 362
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:10 pm

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by Siber »

Well, remember that the EU was entirely(as far as I know anyway) decanonized. There's no reason to assume that the training of the new Jedi in the new continuity was at all like the training of the new Jedi in the EU.
Atomic Space Race, a hard sci-fi orbital mechanics puzzle game.
Homeworld Fulcrum, a Homeworld Remastered Mod

User avatar
Grayhome
Posts: 550
Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2011 2:11 am

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by Grayhome »

Well, remember that the EU was entirely(as far as I know anyway) decanonized. There's no reason to assume that the training of the new Jedi in the new continuity was at all like the training of the new Jedi in the EU.
The new Jedi Order's training must have been practically non-existent to have made such an incompetent, irresponsible, and reckless decision. Excluding combat lessons from training regimes in the SW universe is downright suicidal. There are pirates, slavers, evil empires, and extremely dangerous and hostile alien life forms everywhere in Star Wars. We see them in the movie.

And look what happens when they do exclude combat training. The New Jedi Order is quickly obliterated by the first whiny emo brat of an antagonist that happens to glance their way. Who then promptly get's his ass handed to him by a plumber and a little girl with no prior training in their first duel. A little girl who literally picked up her first light saber during her first duel.

How are these compelling or interesting characters in any respect?

It's just the new owners of the franchise waving away the established universe so they can sell their own product. A vastly inferior product that has inferior villains, unlikable Mary Sue heroes, and Deus ex machina all over the place.
Last edited by Grayhome on Sun Dec 27, 2015 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Star Wars SPOILERS ALLOWED

Post by dragoongfa »

Siber wrote:Well, remember that the EU was entirely(as far as I know anyway) decanonized. There's no reason to assume that the training of the new Jedi in the new continuity was at all like the training of the new Jedi in the EU.
This assumption, although probably canonical, ignores the existence of Obi-Wan and Yoda. They did sit on the sidelines for a decade or two but that doesn't mean that they did nothing all this time. With the tech the Star Wars universe has it should be easy for them to archive somewhere the knowledge necessary to properly train new Jedi for those who would come after them (like Luke).

If the KOTOR lore is still semi canon (and the prequels suggest it is to an extent) this ain't the first time that the Jedi order has fallen to the Sith and masters like Yoda or Obi-Wan should know of that history.

Post Reply