Page 87

[uthilian]

It would be funny if there was something relatively innocuous to Earthlings that was highly addictive to an alien species.

like the lizards in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwar becoming addicted to ground ginger

[Razor One]

Another off-topic tangent: Sometimes I wonder how Loroi/Umiak food cultures would compare to human food cultures in terms of diversity and complexity given their other cultural differences/values. It would be funny if there was something relatively innocuous to Earthlings that was highly addictive to an alien species (desirable enough to conquer our planet maybe ).

Chocolate.

Turns Loroi telepathy to 11.

Umiak's heads asplode from light years away.

Alternatively...

**Beryl nom's chocolate**

**her pupils dilate**

Beryl: Ph'nglui Mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn.

Alex: Oh crap...

[Ktrain]

Pistachios, scenario: Umiak gain access to the wreckage of the Bellarmine and find a package of pistachios... collapse of Umiak civilization soon follows.

Though I can see an Umiak just pulling a bunch of spaghetti into its mouth with two forks/chopsticks.

[Mjolnir]

Hi there, long time reader, first time poster. I just have to say, when I heard the insect's speech, I could hear the main character going "oh, crap." Is there a betting pool on whether the Loroi will give the earthman up?

They don't seem to have any idea that Alex exists, or just expect a flat refusal by the Loroi to hand over anything they've already recovered...they're asking specifically for the Loroi to negotiate for the wreckage they're defending, not for any recovered survivors or equipment. They may even be being diplomatic by asserting that Alex's distress calls came from the wreckage rather than a survivor that was recovered, saving Stillstorm from having to lie about such a thing.

[Some Useless Geek]

<ahem>

The real point I was trying to make (before the flame degeneration) is that mankind in general is pretty quick on its feet, technologically. The Loroi and Umiak technology is pretty impressive, but their science is not. I still think that Terrans, given some pretty basic technologies enjoyed by either Loroi or Umiak, could reverse engineer and improve upon these technologies, then extend them to even better "stuff."

For instance, artificial gravity control could lead to at least a half dozen weapon systems I can bring to mind off the top of my head. And I'm not as smart as the people who are charged with the responsibility of defending the country -- or the world, or the empire, or whatever. Any scientific advance can be turned into a useful and potent weapon if the right <cough, ack, thpth> people get a hold of it.

Perhaps Arioch will expand on this idea, but I'm pretty sure the reality of such a situation as the Outsider 'verse would lead to a worldwide (system-wide? empire-wide?) war footing and the unification of humanity against the alien threat. Given small advances in science we've been able to make huge advances in technologies. Think selenium/germanium to silicon in semiconductors; ruby to polymers in lasers; iron to steel in swords; comp-4 to Semtex in explosives; yada yada yada. The list of small science to big technology is endless. How not so in space flight, weapons, defenses, etc.?

[Nemo]

I doubt the soviets of ´45-´50 would have bombed the rest of the world.

I tend to think of Lenin and Stalin as pragmatists. They were willing to use force to expand the Revolution in Georgia, Manchuria, Eastern Europe etc. They were willing to use other means where they thought force unproductive.

To carry on a war for the overthrow of the international bourgeoisie, a war which is a hundred times more difficult, protracted and complex than the most stubborn of ordinary wars between states, and to renounce in advance any change of tack, or any utilisation of a conflict of interests (even if temporary) among one's enemies, or any conciliation or compromise with possible allies (even if they are temporary, unstable, vacillating or conditional allies) -- is that not ridiculous in the extreme?

If the use of the atomic bomb could secure the revolution's success over the bourgeoisie, if it could establish the dominance of the dictatorship of the party, they would use it. If not, they would not.

Wasn't that in part due to an American policy of pulling aces back to train their next crop of pilots rather than keeping them missions to rack up huge kill counts?

Yes. Thach, O'hare etc. all got pulled back and put on training, PR, and recruitment duties for months or years at a time. O'hare got pulled from June of '42 till August of '43, lost in a night mission shortly thereafter. Thach got pulled after Midway, spent the rest of the war in training or operations.

Miracle at Midway has a fair bit of insight on the subject from the IJN side. They were quite concerned about training and combat losses in their pilot core.

[dex drako]

Humans almost always seem to want to see aliens as nobler and better than us. (Though apparently many of us simultaneously also still want to see ourselves as somehow inexplicably militarily superior.)

Realistically speaking the only Advantage humans have is the combo of our mind and hands. We can find animals on our own planet that beat us in every possible way. Strength, speed, senses and even intelligence (not completely up in areas). heck great apes are not only stronger then us for there size but testing we've found they have "better" memory in areas as well.

So its not hard to imagine an alien races that as our combo of intelligence and dexterity plus some of the advantages we see around us. But our Egos won't allow us to admit that such a possibility could exist, we've grown up being the "best" we know of and if we're not our world falls apart.

Plus it makes for a better story. Lol

The old underdog story line were the weak wins out in the end and all that.

[Karst45]

This is not at all relevant to the story. I'm just saying this because the happy telepathic dolphin is a silly cliche.

Well maybe that why we developed a resistance to telepathic attack, maybe the dolphin aren't as "kind" as they seem to be.

Maybe in the old time the dolphin were actually messing with our mind causing lots of trouble, maybe the myth of the syrene are actually because they used their mind to create illusion of beautyful women so human would drown when trying to reach them, having a good laugh in the process (evil dolphin)

But we developed a resistance to that then we turned them into a circus attraction.

Repensum es carninucal!

Then I think the Loroi would destroy us for just being annoying......

*me be trolling y'r telepatic network Trololo*

It would be funny if there was something relatively innocuous to Earthlings that was highly addictive to an alien species (desirable enough to conquer our planet maybe ).

I believe this is called the Maple Syrup option (at least by me)

Well in the old forum we claimed that we could conquer the loroi with chocolat. I was said it was so addictive that Alex had his flesh taken off his bones by a chocolate deprivated loroi mob, because they thought he had more chocolate on him. zombie loroi? but instead of brain it chocolate

[Cdr Straker]

<ahem>

The real point I was trying to make (before the flame degeneration) is that mankind in general is pretty quick on its feet, technologically. The Loroi and Umiak technology is pretty impressive, but their science is not. I still think that Terrans, given some pretty basic technologies enjoyed by either Loroi or Umiak, could reverse engineer and improve upon these technologies, then extend them to even better "stuff."

For instance, artificial gravity control could lead to at least a half dozen weapon systems I can bring to mind off the top of my head. And I'm not as smart as the people who are charged with the responsibility of defending the country -- or the world, or the empire, or whatever. Any scientific advance can be turned into a useful and potent weapon if the right <cough, ack, thpth> people get a hold of it.

Perhaps Arioch will expand on this idea, but I'm pretty sure the reality of such a situation as the Outsider 'verse would lead to a worldwide (system-wide? empire-wide?) war footing and the unification of humanity against the alien threat. Given small advances in science we've been able to make huge advances in technologies. Think selenium/germanium to silicon in semiconductors; ruby to polymers in lasers; iron to steel in swords; comp-4 to Semtex in explosives; yada yada yada. The list of small science to big technology is endless. How not so in space flight, weapons, defenses, etc.?

That would be totally sweet! If we can get enough tech from them we could build them a ship powered by ACME rocket-powered roller skates, armed with anvil-firing slingshots, protected by massive umbrellas and tunnel openings painted on the hull to allow the incoming fire to simply pass through. Of course, additional anvils would be supplied inside, so when a Umiak tries to board you just hand it one and watch it hurl out of sight, probably with a sign that says "Yikes!"......... Yes, the possibilities are endlesssssss! -Wyle E. Coyote

[discord]

geek: that should probably have been tchpth.

suryasm: aye, the maple syrup war was a nasty business.

straker: well, if we EVER get ACME corporation powered toys working it would be a bad day for the universe....

[Some Useless Geek]

ACME anvils...yes, that's very phunny. So, I guess this means you have no sense of what weapons could be derived from as-yet-unknown technologies? Or that we are capable of deriving superior science once given a slight leg up? Or that we could simply take what weapons and other technologies are in current use by the combatants and improve upon it significantly? Why not?

Sorry, I just don't have time to waste in arguing that humanity isn't good at making sharper sticks once we have the impetus to do so. Attempts to brush aside the obvious with delicate elbow jabs to the ribs won't distract me -- or others who see the truth in my statements -- from the fact that we've shown this propensity throughout our entire recorded history. I see nothing to stop the trend just because we take up space flight.

As I said before, give humans a millimeter and we'll take over the galaxy. Well, if the galaxy is peopled by those in the Outsider 'verse.

[Mjolnir]

The real point I was trying to make (before the flame degeneration) is that mankind in general is pretty quick on its feet, technologically. The Loroi and Umiak technology is pretty impressive, but their science is not. I still think that Terrans, given some pretty basic technologies enjoyed by either Loroi or Umiak, could reverse engineer and improve upon these technologies, then extend them to even better "stuff."

I don't think that's disputed, but the time required is not insignificant. Not just to get manufacturing equipment up and running, but for things like updating design software and getting people trained on the new capabilities and limitations.

For instance, artificial gravity control could lead to at least a half dozen weapon systems I can bring to mind off the top of my head. And I'm not as smart as the people who are charged with the responsibility of defending the country -- or the world, or the empire, or whatever. Any scientific advance can be turned into a useful and potent weapon if the right <cough, ack, thpth> people get a hold of it.

The Terrans in Outsider already have gravity control. And it's possible it is of a nature that makes it generally unsuitable for weapons...achievable field strengths might be inherently too low for mass drivers, or they might not be able to direct and control the fields so that a weapon that can compete with electromagnetic mass drivers doesn't rip itself apart. There's no reason to think it can be projected at a great distance or easily scaled up in intensity to make a "gravity bomb". Local gravity field generators would certainly have military uses...they would have interesting possibilities for fortifications or crowd control, for example...having gravity control just doesn't mean you have a new superweapon.

[Imbrooge]

@Arioch:

So basically you are almost practically admiting that an entire subset of living beings might possibly have the unique trait of not sending out any thought signals at all for the Loroi to pick up on. Great, more fuel to the fire.

And Dolphins and Whales, funny how they resemble potentially Soia linked Pol.

What's next, our anti-Psychic quirk was a natural defense against Eldar Gods sleeping under the soil of the Earth and all life simply adapted a natural resistance to the insanity aura that they emit?

EDIT: Of course I am not at all serious about these accusations.

[Majincarne]

@Arioch:

So basically you are almost practically admiting that an entire subset of living beings might possibly have the unique trait of not sending out any thought signals at all for the Loroi to pick up on. Great, more fuel to the fire.

And Dolphins and Whales, funny how they resemble potentially Soia linked Pol.

What's next, our anti-Psychic quirk was a natural defense against Eldar Gods sleeping under the soil of the Earth and all life simply adapted a natural resistance to the insanity aura that they emit?

EDIT: Of course I am not at all serious about these accusations.

Next episode, Alex walks out onto the bridge says "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" and all the Loroi and Umiak begin scrathing at their faces and soon fall to the floor frothing.

Humans win GG.

[fredgiblet]

Sorry, I just don't have time to waste in arguing that humanity isn't good at making sharper sticks once we have the impetus to do so.

No one's arguing against that. What we ARE arguning against is the idea that this is going to be a simple, fast process. If the Loroi or Umiak drop a derelict ship into our laps it's not going to be a matter of a 5 minute montage of engineers arguing around a chalkboard before we have a Historian grade ship ready for deployment.

Even WITH help it's going to be years before we get to the point that we can replicate existing technologies, once we've mastered that we will certainly start expanding our knowledge rapidly, but by that point we'll also be firmly ensconced in our new alliance as well. I think it's very likely that 20 years from now humans will be the R&D arm of the Loroi Empire, but we sure as hell won't be allowed to have a fleet that could even think of challenging the Loroi.

[Voitan]

Humans brains are very closely related to all other mammal brains. If Humans have a characteristic that makes them hard for Loroi telepathy to read, it's probably not scientific to assume that other Earth mammals don't have the same characteristic.

This is not at all relevant to the story. I'm just saying this because the happy telepathic dolphin is a silly cliche.

Loroi will probably think these observations/descriptors from their POV, of the human body as the reason to the lotai effect.

Left/right brain hemisphere split, "super conducting"-like internal body structure, high in iron content in blood, and a body that runs relatively hot to in essence, create a faraday cage to all telepathic signals, from getting in, or out.

[Mjolnir]

Left/right brain hemisphere split, "super conducting"-like internal body structure, high in iron content in blood, and a body that runs relatively hot to in essence, create a faraday cage to all telepathic signals, from getting in, or out.

There's not that much iron in the blood, an iron-containing pigment just happens to be the dominant coloring agent, and it's not in a form that makes it any good for shielding. And our tissues aren't in any way remotely describable as "superconducting".

If blocking telepathy was a matter of Fe 2+ and Fe 3+ ions and heated shielding, it'd not be nearly so difficult to figure out how to block it.

[Voitan]

Left/right brain hemisphere split, "super conducting"-like internal body structure, high in iron content in blood, and a body that runs relatively hot to in essence, create a faraday cage to all telepathic signals, from getting in, or out.

There's not that much iron in the blood, an iron-containing pigment just happens to be the dominant coloring agent, and it's not in a form that makes it any good for shielding. And our tissues aren't in any way remotely describable as "superconducting".

If blocking telepathy was a matter of Fe 2+ and Fe 3+ ions and heated shielding, it'd not be nearly so difficult to figure out how to block it.

I think you forgot something from my post.

Loroi will probably think these observations/descriptors from their POV, of the human body as the reason to the lotai effect.

[Mjolnir]

Loroi will probably think these observations/descriptors from their POV, of the human body as the reason to the lotai effect.

Not if they know as much about biology as the effectiveness of their treatment of Alex implies.

[Imbrooge]

Beryl didn't know if he was alright without asking implies that they only know basic composition and anatomy, not the more specific details like biochemistry.

EDIT: He lost consciousness from a lack of oxygen right after he saw a big ship coming at him, thats probably why he recovered at all and the others didn't. Like it was right on top of him, and he was alright for several hours prior so he clearly wasn't bleeding to death so all they had to do was rescusitate him.