Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

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Sweforce
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Sweforce »

Loroi allies maybe? The insider mention three homeworld where the Soia placed the loroi ancestors. Now imagine a fourth world deep inside what is now umiak controlled space, outside the range of long range detection. They could even be from a slightly different "batch" of loroi with slightly different characteristics, wastly different culture etc. It is possible thou I doubt this is the real reason. Or maybe the umiak have found some ancient jamming device that are kept onboard the ship that blasted the Bellarmine.

Absalom
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Absalom »

cacambo43 wrote:You'd need such a huge mirror or lens (imaging satellites are basically giant telescopes) that there's no launch system that could possibly get it off the ground, and we don't have any way (yet) of constructing one in orbit (and if we did, it would be plainly visible to anyone looking up).

All that's a tangential to your general point and speculation, but as someone who works with optical satellite imagery, I couldn't let this pass without comment.

CJSF
Any attempts that you know of that look like they're having success in moving the constraint from element diameter to element depth? I know that some useful info on polarizers was recently found in mantis shrimp shells, but I don't know if it should translate to focusing optics as well.

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saint of m
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by saint of m »

Absalom wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:You'd need such a huge mirror or lens (imaging satellites are basically giant telescopes) that there's no launch system that could possibly get it off the ground, and we don't have any way (yet) of constructing one in orbit (and if we did, it would be plainly visible to anyone looking up).

All that's a tangential to your general point and speculation, but as someone who works with optical satellite imagery, I couldn't let this pass without comment.

CJSF
Any attempts that you know of that look like they're having success in moving the constraint from element diameter to element depth? I know that some useful info on polarizers was recently found in mantis shrimp shells, but I don't know if it should translate to focusing optics as well.
Mantis Shrimp eyes are interesting as they have the most color receptive eyes period. There are spectrum and colors they can see in the dozens that we cannot even comprehend. I wonder if the Farseer's minds work simalarly with their psionic abilities when compared to the common Loroi?

Although I will concede to the satellite one. Pick my house out from orbit why not a specific frequency of familiar mental signatures?

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by raistlin34 »

Here is the infallible method to protect yourself from Loroi´s scrying

Image

Brilliant! :ugeek:
Last edited by raistlin34 on Sun May 22, 2016 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Absalom
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Absalom »

saint of m wrote:Mantis Shrimp eyes are interesting as they have the most color receptive eyes period. There are spectrum and colors they can see in the dozens that we cannot even comprehend. I wonder if the Farseer's minds work simalarly with their psionic abilities when compared to the common Loroi?
Judging from what Arioch's previously said, no, Farseers only have higher emissions & more sensitive reception: if they attempt telepathic warfare, then they tend to destroy their target through pure telepathic power.
raistlin34 wrote:Here is the infallible method to protect yourself from Loroi´s scrying

Image

Brilliant! :ugeek:
It also seems to work against hot-linking.

discord
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by discord »

cacambo: google maps earth mode might be a tad bit better then 30cm/pixel, just saying.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Google maps earth mode does not have better resolution than 30cm/pixel, at least not from satellite imagery. Most of the world's imagery is 1 meter per pixel or higher. The most common high resolution satellite imagery comes from DigitalGlobe (65 centimeters), and Worldview-2 (50 centimeters).

If you are seeing imagery on google maps that is in the 15 centimeters range, that imagery was taken by airplane, not by satellite. (Most major cities are mapped by airplane.)

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by cacambo43 »

Yes, what icekatze says is true. The really high-resolution imagery you see in Google Maps and Bing Maps (and similar) is from aerial photography. Some of those rigs can get 4-inch resolution, but coverage is sparse. I suppose the government could be flying low altitude aerial missions to map your neighborhood at better than 4-inch resolution, but it'd be nearly impossible to do stealthily, and I can't think of a reason they'd want to.

Earlier in the thread someone was mentioning Mantis Shrimp and asked about element diameter vs. element depth. I am not sure what that refers to - did you (person asking) mean spectral width? We have operational hyperspectral imagers. They tend to be of lower spatial resolution, if space-borne, but there are some aerial systems that can image sub-meter with hundreds of spectral bands (or "colors"). In the visual range, having more bands doesn't necessarily mean you are detecting colors humans can't perceive, it just means that particular band is integrated into what a particular set of cones can detect and send to our brains.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Absalom »

cacambo43 wrote:Earlier in the thread someone was mentioning Mantis Shrimp and asked about element diameter vs. element depth. I am not sure what that refers to - did you (person asking) mean spectral width? We have operational hyperspectral imagers. They tend to be of lower spatial resolution, if space-borne, but there are some aerial systems that can image sub-meter with hundreds of spectral bands (or "colors"). In the visual range, having more bands doesn't necessarily mean you are detecting colors humans can't perceive, it just means that particular band is integrated into what a particular set of cones can detect and send to our brains.

CJSF
No, I was referring to using distance along the axis of sight as a replacement for distance at right-angles to the axis of sight. Trading lens width for lens thickness in essence, though I don't believe that conventional lenses (or conventional reflectors) could possibly do it: I'm curious if someone has found a plausible method to do it (you won't get a stronger signal, no, but that wouldn't be the point, more compact optics would be).

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SVlad
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by SVlad »

The angular resolution of optical system is limited by a simple function of wavelength of light and the diameter of the lens' aperture. It's law of nature. And the angle itself is a function of an object's size an a distance.
For example, for 3 mm resolution you will need a 20 meters diameter lens even from extremely low 100 km orbit. And 100 meters lens for more reasonable 400 km orbit. 30 cm resolution needs only a 1 meter lens from the same 400 km orbit.
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cacambo43
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by cacambo43 »

SVlad wrote:The angular resolution of optical system is limited by a simple function of wavelength of light and the diameter of the lens' aperture. It's law of nature. And the angle itself is a function of an object's size an a distance.
For example, for 3 mm resolution you will need a 20 meters diameter lens even from extremely low 100 km orbit. And 100 meters lens for more reasonable 400 km orbit. 30 cm resolution needs only a 1 meter lens from the same 400 km orbit.
Yep!

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by discord »

well, the astro people get a hell of a lot better imagery through math magic and using timelapse to get more data to correlate from.

since adding time into the equation you can extrapolate more data and get 'half pixel' data due to angles changing and movement, not really very functional for geostationary unless the object is moving relative to the planet, but still.

just saying you can get a effectively better resolution as compared to the simple analog optics and rules they follow.
and not entirely reliable such due to guesses involved.

however, to once again touch upon the subject of the thread, some kind of cryo stasis and combined with a possible 'shielding' effect from the naam system would be my guess.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by cacambo43 »

discord wrote:well, the astro people get a hell of a lot better imagery through math magic and using timelapse to get more data to correlate from.

since adding time into the equation you can extrapolate more data and get 'half pixel' data due to angles changing and movement, not really very functional for geostationary unless the object is moving relative to the planet, but still.

just saying you can get a effectively better resolution as compared to the simple analog optics and rules they follow.
and not entirely reliable such due to guesses involved.

however, to once again touch upon the subject of the thread, some kind of cryo stasis and combined with a possible 'shielding' effect from the naam system would be my guess.
The "astro people" are also working with objects with much larger angular diameters than newspapers or coins near the ground, from Earth orbit. The super-resolution images from some of the Mars landers and rovers is impressive, and I'm sure certain "operators" have been using similar tricks to tease out more information from Earth orbit for decades. But once you enter a temporal element to the process, you introduce another set of problems and limitations to your data.

I'm waiting with bated breath for how Arioch is going to reveal both the Umiak's evasion of the farseers and what Kikitik-27 meant in panel 88.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Absalom »

SVlad wrote:The angular resolution of optical system is limited by a simple function of wavelength of light and the diameter of the lens' aperture. It's law of nature. And the angle itself is a function of an object's size an a distance.
For example, for 3 mm resolution you will need a 20 meters diameter lens even from extremely low 100 km orbit. And 100 meters lens for more reasonable 400 km orbit. 30 cm resolution needs only a 1 meter lens from the same 400 km orbit.
I'm aware of how it works, but as a comparison of reflector and Beverage antennas shows, that doesn't necessarily mean that the aperture size is required to be measured at right angles to the direction of the photons (though who knows, perhaps I just haven't grokked Beverage antennas yet). At any rate, it sounds like no possibilities have popped up.
discord wrote:well, the astro people get a hell of a lot better imagery through math magic and using timelapse to get more data to correlate from.
This isn't image-related, but the "time-lapse" that I'm aware of is mostly useful for increasing bit-depth, rather than pixel-count (double the measurements of a single value, double the accuracy of the combined measurement of that value). You might be able to fine-tune your estimate of the location of something that contributes to multiple pixels, but you won't really be increasing the resolution: the resolution stays the same (well, actually I think the resolution would fall), you just get to calculate the "real position" of the pixels instead of assuming that they fall perfectly on the grid.

Sure, it's slightly different if the object is moving, but not necessarily by much.
discord wrote:however, to once again touch upon the subject of the thread, some kind of cryo stasis and combined with a possible 'shielding' effect from the naam system would be my guess.
I'm leaning toward increased cybernetics + improved automation, particularly since mostly older ships get used on raids: if higher-automation ships seem to work well, they'd probably have been mostly kept inside Umiak space... except for a handful scattered among the fleets, with unnecessarily large crews to hide the special traits of the ships.

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saint of m
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by saint of m »

Another thing came to mind with stealth bombers coming to mind.

The B-2 Spirit stealth bomber (the usual go to image of a stealth bomber) was designed to be ignored by radar. Its angles, the way the cockpit is (as even the piolet moving their head could be picked up), color, and even the type of paint which obsorbs radar waves were all carefully tested for it.

Could the Shells have done something similar?

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by dragoongfa »

That would require in depth working of the working of Telepathy. Not just being able to use telepathy but to scientifically detect it and measure it.

The Loroi aren't able to do this so the comparable Umiak shouldn't be able as well.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Krulle »

Buut then the Umiak never had psychological burdens when experimenting with Telepathy, whereas the Loroi always have to experiment on one of their own.
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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I'm not sure if the Loroi are above conducting cold and clinical studies on their own species. There certainly haven been times in history when humans weren't, anyways. Not saying they do or do not necessarily, but when matters of survival of the species are concerned I get the impression that if they felt it was needed, they could find a way to make it happen, either discreetly, or with some cooked up justification.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by Absalom »

saint of m wrote:Another thing came to mind with stealth bombers coming to mind.

The B-2 Spirit stealth bomber (the usual go to image of a stealth bomber) was designed to be ignored by radar. Its angles, the way the cockpit is (as even the piolet moving their head could be picked up), color, and even the type of paint which obsorbs radar waves were all carefully tested for it.

Could the Shells have done something similar?
If I recall, the Mannadi have some sort of resistance to telepathy. If the Umiak found a way to make them "look" like Umiak then I suppose that it might work, but that would require some assumptions.

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Re: Fan Theories on How the Umiak can hide from the farseers

Post by saint of m »

@ icekatze

True enough.

The Tuskegee Siphlies Experiment; Edison electicuting things to death to disprove Tesla; how we have our understanding of the effects of hypothermia.

And there is the fact we still look for someone to look down upon. While using race, religion, and ethnicity (3 go to things to pick on) we still look at class (upper or lower), or someother quicky group or subcuture to say: Thank heaven I am not them."

Considering how the blue space babes treat their allies and enemies, I doubt they have grown out of it.

@Absalom: Could they rig something that would broarden their signiture, say add more telepathic white noise?

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