Pages 114, 115, 116

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icekatze
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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

The point that I head meant to get at was that Alex was the lowest rung on Bellarmine's ladder, but simultaneously one of the best of the best. Trying to explain that to a Loroi who is confused about the difference between Ensign and Enzin could cause additional misunderstandings, depending on the sorts of assumptions people are going into the conversation with. (Assuming Alex even picks up on the Ensign/Enzin confusion.)

It's not like the Loroi are going to be unduly shocked and put off by the oddities of human culture. After all, they have plenty of experience with even more alien races. But they still have plenty of opportunities to look down upon the lowly outsiders with disdain for their inability to do things the correct way.

But seriously though, if I were Alex, I would be trying to dodge this line of conversation as hard as possible and get to the star maps. :P

---

On an unrelated note: How common is it for a non-pilot to have lots of jump-lanes memorized? I'm not sure if Talon is making a relatively safe wager by asking if he's a pilot, based on information like that; or if she's really going by intuition alone.

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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by cacambo43 »

Hālian wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:
CF2 wrote:Funny thing about Talon's manner of speaking, she seems to have accidentally pronounced "humanity" correctly rather than saying "humaniti" like others unfamiliar with the word.
What do you (and others, including Arioch) think the fundamental difference in pronunciation is between the two? I "hear" it the same way when I read the comic.

CJSF
<humaniti> /humaniti/
<Humanity> /hjuˈmænɪti/
Eh? If I'm reading that bottom one right (not a sure thing), that bears no resemblance to how I say "Humanity".

CJSF

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Arioch
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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by Arioch »

icekatze wrote:But seriously though, if I were Alex, I would be trying to dodge this line of conversation as hard as possible and get to the star maps.
Yes, his moment of insecurity aside, it's not in Alex's interest to go into detail about how junior he really is.
icekatze wrote:On an unrelated note: How common is it for a non-pilot to have lots of jump-lanes memorized? I'm not sure if Talon is making a relatively safe wager by asking if he's a pilot, based on information like that; or if she's really going by intuition alone.
Since they assume he is a ship captain, detailed navigational knowledge would not be unusual for him to have.

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Hālian
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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by Hālian »

cacambo43 wrote:
Hālian wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:What do you (and others, including Arioch) think the fundamental difference in pronunciation is between the two? I "hear" it the same way when I read the comic.

CJSF
<humaniti> /humaniti/
<Humanity> /hjuˈmænɪti/
Eh? If I'm reading that bottom one right (not a sure thing), that bears no resemblance to how I say "Humanity".

CJSF
Blame Wiktionary. *shrug*
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orion1836
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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by orion1836 »

Arioch wrote:As far as I am aware, a modern non-commissioned officer (corporal, sergeant, etc.) has exactly the same responsibility for the men under his command as any commissioned officer does. Our division between enlisted and commissioned ranks is largely artificial and is a relic of traditional land armies in which there was a clear social and class division between the gentry/knights/officers and the peasants/levies/conscripts/enlisted. The Loroi wouldn't have any trouble understanding this concept, but it isn't useful to them either in social terms or in the context of an ultra-tech military. The enlisted/commissioned barrier is already starting to show its obsolescence in our modern militaries, in democratic societies that no longer mirror the gentry/peasant class division, and in increasingly technologically advanced forces that require ever more professional and well-trained and -educated soldiers, especially in services like air forces and navies in which the "rank and file" structure of infantry has less relevance.
As a currently-serving officer, I can say that this is not the case at all. While the peasant/gentry connotations have indeed been long-discarded, the enlisted/officer division is central to the way the military operates and is as artificial as any other pay scale one would find in corporate America. The officer and enlisted ranks evolved with the industrial revolution to a more blue/white collar differentiation. Even in high-tech operations like mine where everyone is doing white collar work, the distinction still exists in the form of a technician/project lead relationship.

Officers will only ever make up a fraction of the force. They take longer to train and cost more to educate. Additionally, they are supposed to be generalists by design. While officers will gain depth in at least one career field at the start of their careers, all are expected to undergo "career broadening" mid-way through in preparation for leadership roles which demand a *very* wide range of experience in acquisitions, personnel management, finance, law, and a myriad of other skill-sets *in addition* to the warfighting and operational knowledge required by their career fields. Some enlisted troops go through lesser amounts of career broadening, but only those who show potential for the senior-most of the enlisted ranks. All others are expected to be specialists in their career fields.

The lines do indeed get blurry when you have modern, highly technical operations where enlisted troops may have higher-level degrees than the officers leading them, but in the end it is the job they perform and the responsibilities levied on officers and enlisted troops that differentiates them. Enlisted personnel are the technical experts that do the work and, at most, manage a handful of other technical experts. They are focused on today, tomorrow, and possibly next week. Officers are the leaders who are coordinating multiple sets of technical experts to achieve the overall objective and should be focused 3-6 months, or even a year or more ahead based on the nature of their jobs. I frequently date paperwork incorrectly because my brain is stuck in 2019 or 2018 and I occasionally forget it's 2017.

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Kava
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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by Kava »

GabrielGABFonseca wrote:Ok people, I have a new game for you: It is called What is Beryl Feeling? - it's a very simple game, we simply have to guess what our dear Tozet Beryl is feeling as of the end of page 116!
"First Fireblade, and now Talon is molesting the guy who's supposed to convince Humaniti the Loroi are the good guys! We're doomed."

Also, note Beryl's expression on page 41. I don't think she likes Talon.

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CrimsonFALKE
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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by CrimsonFALKE »

Beryl doesn't look pleased, I would say that look is jealousy. I mean she has been so kind and such yet this act is well a friendly Human greeting why and what does she have to do to earn that kind of reaction?

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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by fredgiblet »

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CrimsonFALKE
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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by CrimsonFALKE »

Arioch wrote:
NuclearIceCream wrote:
Arent wrote:I just noticed that Talon apparently misunderstood him. He said, she could call him "Ensign", which she apparently understood as "Enzin"? Does she think that is his name?
It was explained before that ensign was his rank, I would think Beryl would have spread that around. Enzin is probably an accent thing. You'll note that she is not as eloquent as Beryl or our favorite diplomatic officer. You'll also notice the one flying the shuttle is less eloquent.
Beryl also informed them that Alex's name means "Garden Guardian", which in Trade is Ristan Enzin.

Well it doesn't sound that bad he is a Guardian of something and I am not sure if you have ever delt with hungry gophers when it comes to actually having a Garden.

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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by GabrielGABFonseca »

fredgiblet wrote:
SpoilerShow
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Personally, I don't really like the idea of Outsider having too much emphasis on romance or - goddess forbid it - romcom elements. But then again... read my signature. :P
Tauntingly: "Enzin tii Eilis mé sibreg ranii tó lanzedad..."

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Zarya
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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by Zarya »

It's a detail, next to Beryl's look on her face, I really like the Star Trek TOS 'SHRAK' sound of the door in #116..

~Z~

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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by deadlypie »

GabrielGABFonseca wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
SpoilerShow
Image
Personally, I don't really like the idea of Outsider having too much emphasis on romance or - goddess forbid it - romcom elements. But then again... read my signature. :P
That would be incredibly funny in my opinion.

harlequin2262
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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by harlequin2262 »

GabrielGABFonseca wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
SpoilerShow
Image
Personally, I don't really like the idea of Outsider having too much emphasis on romance or - goddess forbid it - romcom elements. But then again... read my signature. :P
Space Harem adventure ahoy!

Barring that, Space Opera. Either way, Kirk Doctrine is in full effect.

novius
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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by novius »

Beryl really seems to have a look of suspicion on her face. And that Loroi very much have a similar custom to human women staking their claim, because she certainly did and that message was well received by Talon... why else would she feel the need to placate Beryl? After all, Beryl did berate Talon in sort of a roundabout way of doing something untoward. Beryl usually does voice her thoughts more carefully and would have chosen a more neutral tone (like, "that gesture looks unfamiliar to me, someone explain it?") if she had wanted to.

It could be for the sake of storytelling, but the fact that Beryl did speak out loud and not simply sent her misgivings to Talon (exchanged glances and Talon releasing his hand) could account very much to the "staking the claim" thing here.... To make it clear to both of them that other females should back off of him :)

Might be with males being a scarcity and access being regulated Loroi did sort of adopt a behavior like "get hold of one and don't let go", which might have been translated literally here... :)

Add to that, the customary greeting did get a bit off track and into a more personal space over the course of pg. 115, but it certainly does look like that Talon wouldn't mind. Had she minded, she might have answered with a mild rebuke and not offered her spoken name in return. :)

What I am sort of missing is any idea on Alex thoughts that she didn't seem to attempt to intrude on his thoughts. Either they were all briefed that it would be uncomfortable for Alex and whoever tries it, or she simply lacks the aptitude, which would be highly unusual for a species with telepathy as the preferred mode of communication. My bets are put on self-restraint on her part.

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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by boldilocks »

It could also be that he's a first-contact alien and whoever does the important work of establishing trust/communications/basic knowledge and so forth with him will have earned a lot of brownie-points or prestige in whatever passes the military hierarchy, either for beryl personally or for her caste. Or perhaps she is adamant that it should be her caste that controls interaction and establishment of common units and basic knowledge with the alien, which could explain why she seemed frustrated to see Tempo, who's part of the 'diplomatic' caste, join them on the trip.

Or maybe it's just me who's read too much C.J.Cherryh and trying to establish some kind of non-kirkian reason for her demeanor? ;)

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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by novius »

boldilocks wrote:It could also be that he's a first-contact alien and whoever does the important work of establishing trust/communications/basic knowledge and so forth with him will have earned a lot of brownie-points or prestige in whatever passes the military hierarchy, either for beryl personally or for her caste. Or perhaps she is adamant that it should be her caste that controls interaction and establishment of common units and basic knowledge with the alien, which could explain why she seemed frustrated to see Tempo, who's part of the 'diplomatic' caste, join them on the trip.

Or maybe it's just me who's read too much C.J.Cherryh and trying to establish some kind of non-kirkian reason for her demeanor? ;)
Sure. Beryl's interest in him could be purely professional. But that wouldn't change the fact that she might want to reserve exclusive rights on him and could see Talon's supposed forwardness as a threat to them. So yes, for whatever reasons, Beryl seems to have a rather jealous streak. Towards Tempo, Talon and whoever else who might approach him.

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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by harlequin2262 »

boldilocks wrote:It could also be that he's a first-contact alien and whoever does the important work of establishing trust/communications/basic knowledge and so forth with him will have earned a lot of brownie-points or prestige in whatever passes the military hierarchy, either for beryl personally or for her caste. Or perhaps she is adamant that it should be her caste that controls interaction and establishment of common units and basic knowledge with the alien, which could explain why she seemed frustrated to see Tempo, who's part of the 'diplomatic' caste, join them on the trip.

Or maybe it's just me who's read too much C.J.Cherryh and trying to establish some kind of non-kirkian reason for her demeanor? ;)
She has the Xenophile quality. Although her sensitivity about her age might play into your explanation as well.

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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by novius »

Another thing - Beryl was fast asleep a moment ago, right? She dozed off as Tempo took over, but didn't take long to be up and about again. I'd peg it on warrior training, to be up and alert if something around oneself changes - like Alex getting up and moving away - but the first thing she did is to follow him and then seeing him in a rather compromising situation. Depends on how much Beryl heard in pg. 116, things could get awkward. (Take away Talon's first sentence and just read the second one and you may see what I mean :) )

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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by orion1836 »

boldilocks wrote:Or maybe it's just me who's read too much C.J.Cherryh and trying to establish some kind of non-kirkian reason for her demeanor? ;)
Glad I'm not the only one who read her books!

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Re: Pages 114, 115, 116

Post by GabrielGABFonseca »

I don't know about you people, but I don't think Beryl's "jealousness" comes from any romantic intention of hers... at least not yet.

I can see it happening in the near-to-mid term future, although I think it is less likely than a strictly professional and platonic attachment to Alex and vice-versa.

It's hard to guess, really. On one side, I personally think a romantic subplot would feel a tad strange in Outsider, but then again, it is a Space Opera, after all. And even in the "New Space Opera" sub-genre (Mass Effect, for instance) on which I believe Outsider falls into, it still is a predominant theme.

So really, who knows?

Well, Arioch does, but he ain't telling! :lol:
Tauntingly: "Enzin tii Eilis mé sibreg ranii tó lanzedad..."

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