Page: 118

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Krulle
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Re: Page: 118

Post by Krulle »

Despite having been treated as a prisoner.
What would Alex have expected otherwise?
He's from an unknown species with unknown behaviour and unknown desires and unknown needs.
He's an unkown agent from an unknown power.
Which is admittedly weak, and lacking ressources to be a power which could challenge Umiak or Loroi in any form.
Rescued in space from a dead ship.
Rescued by a military war ship in the middle of a combat mission.

I'm sure NO Human military would let an unknown emissary run around free on such a military ship. Not just for fear of him nosing our secrets. For his own safety, as a war ship is not a place full of locked doors and access control and safety mechanisms. It is a dangerous place to be, not just because it will be a target for munition, but also because the machinery and weapons it needs for its own functions.

Please tell me how the Loroi could've treated Alex "better".
They kept him safe, and are bringing him via courier shuttle to the sector capital, which is about as fast "Bring me to your leader" as you can expect in the situtation.

I'm sure Alex and the other Bellarmine crew members have been trained to think "What does the other side expect/can do/would like?".
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

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Hālian
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Re: Page: 118

Post by Hālian »

GabrielGABFonseca wrote:were I in Alex's comfortable, [loroi]-made green shoes
Point of order. Alex was given Teidar boots, which are yellow. ;)
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CF2
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Re: Page: 118

Post by CF2 »

Krulle wrote:Please tell me how the Loroi could've treated Alex "better".
They could have not left him in solitary confinement for the duration of time between the skirmish at Naam and his departure aboard the shuttle, especially because they had at that point recognized him as an "ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary" as well as military attaché and by their rights a captain. If he was safe enough to keep around the bridge of their command ship during battle, they probably could have had Beryl start on the information gathering at the very least.
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Krulle
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Re: Page: 118

Post by Krulle »

We know Alex got sent out before the big battle, before it was just a skirmish.
The Loroi let him observe, but sent him off once his business (commemorating his colleagues "M-I-C-K-E-Y") was over.

And what did Alex learn? Not much, besides that any of the small battle participating ships could defeat the whole Human space navy alone, and not break out a droplet of oil. For the rest he could not have observed anything, and he had two security guards direct by his side (for a Loroi uncomfortably close, especially with his "manspreading" (page 72).
They kept a very tight control on him on the bridge.
And they sent him immediately off, once they thought his business was over. And the way Beryl insists that he leaves RIGHT NOW implies unspoken orders in the direction of Fireblade (page 90).
On page 91 you can even see Fireblade touching Alex to help him off the bridge RIGHT NOW.


Instead of solitary confinement, you propose interrogation instead?

Solitary interrogation can be seen as a problem by itself. Under certain circumstances that is a warcrime.
Also, the Loroi do not know human psyche. They might not now how much information a human that is lonely will spill.
Especially a lonely male in presence of women with an alure of the kind the Loroi radiate.
If they knew, they would make sure to keep Alex busy, so that he can brag with all his knowledge...

I find the Loroi very courteous towards Alex, considering the circumstances.
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

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CF2
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Re: Page: 118

Post by CF2 »

Krulle wrote:Also, the Loroi do not know human psyche. They might not now how much information a human that is lonely will spill.
Especially a lonely male in presence of women with an alure of the kind the Loroi radiate.
If they knew, they would make sure to keep Alex busy, so that he can brag with all his knowledge...

I find the Loroi very courteous towards Alex, considering the circumstances.
That Beryl and Tempo were apologetic at his solitary confinement, says that it was not intended as a courtesy or sign of respect. Courtesy would have been to inquire as to how he would prefer to be treated, and then to make some effort to accommodate that preference as deemed acceptable.
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icekatze
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Re: Page: 118

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

As long as we're assuming that the Loroi diplomatic rules and customs are anything like humanity's, I think it is worth noting that solitary confinement is forbidden under the Geneva Conventions. A lot of people tend to be dismissive of that, thinking "I'm by myself plenty of times, what are they complaining about?" But all empirical evidence shows that solitary confinement does indeed mess people up.

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Re: Page: 118

Post by cacambo43 »

Yeah. I mean there's a huge and important psychological difference between, "Let me escort you to some quarters. They may be a bit spartan, but we can try to get you at least a desk, chair, and a cot. We'll check in from time to time, but we'll need to keep you under protection until we get to safer coordinates. There's an intercom for emergency calls." and "Come with us now." [shove - clang] and you sleeping on the floor for a week with dubious nutrition shoved in at you.

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Krulle
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Re: Page: 118

Post by Krulle »

There is a difference, but still.
It is a war ship they're on.
They are in a mission in disputed territories.
As a war ship they do not have much spare room.
you are an alien to them, and they do not know what kind of foods you need.
They do not talk to each other, they use telepathy. You are blind to telepathy.

There are plenty reasons.
And we do not know what else happened outside the ship. Did the ship later take up more survivors of the battle, from the sister ships?
Was the crew busy doing repairs so that the ship (and Alex on it) survives?
How active have they been pursuited while Alex was in a cell?
How large is his cell compared to the rooms the Loroi share?
How much time did really pass? (a subjective week, several hyperjumps (url=http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider098.html]page 98[/url]) - apparently they are in a hurry)
What other tasks does Beryl have, which may have prevented her from giving Alex the attention you feel he should've deserved?
(Maybe she was cataloguing the devices recuperated from Bellarmine, and trying to find a context between that stuff and whatever Alexander said so far. - Same for the Mizol on board.)

We have not sufficient data to be able to evaluate their behaviour.

And the Loroi are ignorant of anything of Human requirements and psyche.


As far as I can currently evaluate, I tend to vote in favour of the Loroi and them having given Alexander what they could spare.
Companionship on a war ship is a tight ressource.
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

novius
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Re: Page: 118

Post by novius »

It is a warship, I admit, and Task Force 51 is not a diplomatic outfit.

Yet,
  • They still have a Mizol onboard, someone who is trained for diplomatic endeavours (her other specialization notwithstanding).
  • Alex himself noticed (and Arioch as the author confirmed it), that space and comfort are not as much of an issue on Loroi ships. So they could have afforded to offer him some more creature comforts than a rather hard looking mattress on the floor, and seemingly little else... I assume there had been a privy in his cell, but even that hasn't been explicitely shown or even alluded to.
  • Same would go for the food. The extent the Loroi may have done would be to hand him something different if he puked out the current food item rather than having a closer look at what he might be able to digest and what not.
  • For all we know, he was interrogated, confined in his cell, pulled out of it for a dog and pony show, and then dumped back into his cell again, only to be ferried off to some destination unknown.
Operating under the assumption that Tempo and Beryl are genuine in their chagrin about the treatment Alex received, Loroi seem to usually have higher standards of hospitality.

Alex might not know, but we as the readers know that Loroi females have an innate need to ensure the wellbeing of their males. That could mean that this doesn't extend to human males, too, given the treatment he was subjected to.

And that could also mean, sorry guys, Loroi females might not consider human men dmating material at all as well. :D

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Razor One
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Re: Page: 118

Post by Razor One »

A simpler explanation is that Stillstorm wanted the alien isolated and out of sight, in part to give them time to determine beyond a shadow of doubt that he wasn't a Shell trick, and partly to have some very terse conversations with her subordinates about exactly who runs her ship and what will happen if that kind of shit ever happens again.

Rest assured that certain involved parties were stuck on latrine duty.
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Re: Page: 118

Post by GeoModder »

Razor One wrote:A simpler explanation is that Stillstorm wanted the alien isolated and out of sight, in part to give them time to determine beyond a shadow of doubt that he wasn't a Shell trick, and partly to have some very terse conversations with her subordinates about exactly who runs her ship and what will happen if that kind of shit ever happens again.

Rest assured that certain involved parties were stuck on latrine duty.
This.
Stillstorm was hostile towards Alex from their first encounter onwards. I'm pretty sure due to the circumstances her strike group was in, her command overrides any diplomatic necessities Tempo could bring up.
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orion1836
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Re: Page: 118

Post by orion1836 »

I view the Loroi's treatment of Alex to be one of pragmatism over all else, which falls in line with what little we know of Stillstorm, who was presumably calling the shots.

Keeping an unknown entity on lockdown, though a bit harsh, was probably the most prudent course of action she could have taken. To my mind, even if there were "guest quarters" on a warship, they would likely be located near other quarters on the ship, and they probably would not be as secure as a brig.

There are a number of reasons why Stillstorm would want to keep Alex isolated. One, he's an unknown quantity, as I said previously, and potentially an Umiak trick. You wouldn't want a potential threat in a position where he could do harm to your crew. Two, anyone who's served on a ship will tell you that the rumor mill runs rampant. An alien like Alex is going to spark speculation, especially if the topic about a potential Loroi template race comes up. Stillstorm would want to keep as much of a lid on that as possible, and keeping Alex isolated limits the rumors to whatever the bridge crew and the few who passed him in the corridors saw. Finally, though unlikely based on what Arioch has said about Loroi discipline and libido, there is the potential that Stillstorm is simply keeping an obviously Loroi-like male separated from an entirely female crew that hasn't seen a Loroi male in who knows how long.

Regarding the food... it seems from the list Alex wrote out on the Chapter 2 cover page that the Loroi have provided him with a wide variety of food and are actively attempting to find something that he can eat. There are eight entries visible, and who knows how many more outside the view of the page. I don't think we can pin that unpleasantness on them.

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Re: Page: 118

Post by Diodri »

I agree with RazorOne and Orion1836's line of reasoning, and would like to add, that was a pretty hostile stare exchanged between Tempo and Stillstorm right before Jardin was escorted away. I think they probably had an argument over what to do with him, and the compromise was "Throw him in isolation until we can get him off the ship. And Tempo, you're going with him."

Tempo's phrasing was also a little odd when they boarded the transport ship, "I would like to again express my sincere regrets for the political and military difficulties that lead to your being held in isolation. I can say only that is was necessary for your own safety. Despite this difficult beginning, I assure you that there are none now aboard this shuttle except for whom your well being is of the highest priority."

To me it sounds like, someone on board wanted to just airlock the pink alien and be done with it.

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Re: Page: 118

Post by Krulle »

A war ship captain usually does not want unknown agents on board, especially during a mission.
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

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Re: Page: 118

Post by orion1836 »

Diodri wrote:I agree with RazorOne and Orion1836's line of reasoning, and would like to add, that was a pretty hostile stare exchanged between Tempo and Stillstorm right before Jardin was escorted away. I think they probably had an argument over what to do with him, and the compromise was "Throw him in isolation until we can get him off the ship. And Tempo, you're going with him."

Tempo's phrasing was also a little odd when they boarded the transport ship, "I would like to again express my sincere regrets for the political and military difficulties that lead to your being held in isolation. I can say only that is was necessary for your own safety. Despite this difficult beginning, I assure you that there are none now aboard this shuttle except for whom your well being is of the highest priority."

To me it sounds like, someone on board wanted to just airlock the pink alien and be done with it.
The line about safety is what lead me to believe that a very Loroi-like alien male could not be trusted in the hands of the rank-and-file.

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Re: Page: 118

Post by Starne »

I'm not sure if this has been commented on... But if I'm not mistaken, practically every Loroi who has had any kind of prolonged contact with Alex appears to be aboard the shuttle. The only exceptions being the two medical personnel who treated him and were present when he first regained consciousness. Beryl, Fireblade, Tempo, Spiral and Talon, the dark haired one in the green uniform ( "Shoe girl"; Tempo's aide?) and even two of the three marines that guarded his cell are all currently being sent away, either at Tempo's request or Stillstorm's demand.

I don't think that this is a sign of anyone in the Loroi chain of command being up to anything nefarious, because if they were trying to get rid of Alex and anyone with particular knowledge of him, then the two medics and the third marine would be on the shuttle, too.

Rather, I think there are two, possibly three factors at work here. One, Tempo is savvy enough to know that her superiors are going to want to grill anyone with any potentially useful knowledge of Alex, and taking two marines, two pilots, and a unsheathed was probably a big enough ask before trying to rob the Tempest's medical staff as well*. Second, judging by Tempo and Stillstorm's interaction on the bridge and Beryl's comment on boarding the shuttle, Stillstorm certainly wanted the spooks off her ship no matter what, and was likely trying to remove any potential distractions from among her crew by removing as many people who had contact with Alex as possible. Alternatively, the Loroi on the shuttle are all Tempo's people. Beryl and Shoe Girl are clearly Tempo's subordinates. Spiral and Talon were trusted with closely examining an unknown alien wreck and retrieving a mortally wounded alien, and Fireblade and the two marines have been explicitly tasked with handling Alex's security, which are all tasks that one would expect to be handled by military intelligence, rather than regular military personnel.

* Anything the medics observed would've been recorded, and the marines certainly had more contact with Alex than the medics did. Anything the medics would have to say about Alex would likely be covered in their reports and logs, but the Marines' observations and thoughts regarding Alex would probably not be, and getting Stillstorm to part with two grunts was probably easier than trying to pry away some of her medical staff.

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Re: Page: 118

Post by Gudo »

Arioch wrote:Alex is now in charge of the diplomatic mission to the Loroi, but he's also without a ship or any way to contact home, and totally dependent on the goodwill of his captors. If he were to conclude that Loroi could not be trusted with the location of Earth, then the diplomatic mission has failed and his only recourse would be to commit suicide as quickly as possible. The higher he went up the diplomatic food chain, the more insulted the Loroi would be when he refused to answer the most basic questions about the nation he claimed to represent.

Enough people have mentioned this that I think it's clear that the narrator ideally should have said something about his decision to reveal this information, but I have been trying to avoid conspicuous walls of text.
Here's a not thoroughly thought out idea: Add a page somewhere in the Captain Hamilton and Ensign Jardain's conversation flashback (pages 92-95) that breifly touches on the idea. Maybe the Captain can ask Alex's thoughts on sending scouts at all. I don't see a need to have the full debate in the comic. You certainly don't need to go through the arguments on both sides. Just a bit to let the reader know that 1) this problem has been anticipated, 2) it has been debated, 3) a decision has been made, and 4) the decision is to tell the Aliens where earth is. This avoids using the narrator, and it gives a chance to hear a little bit more about Ens Jardain's thoughts on the mission.

Like I said though, I spent maybe 30 seconds thinking about it. No idea how retroactively adding a strip would actually be accomplished, or if it's even feasible. Obvious challenge: inserting a new strip between two old ones will probably break the transition. May require partial re-writes on two strips.

[EDIT] Having re-read the scene, I wouldn't try to add anything new to it. The existing dialog is pretty solid already, so is the line of questioning. Adding a new strip would mean rewriting the whole scene, not just the transitions. Like I said, poorly thought out.
Last edited by Gudo on Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Zamballo
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Re: Page: 118

Post by Zamballo »

Starne wrote: Alternatively, the Loroi on the shuttle are all Tempo's people.
It's likely this. When Alex first woke up Stillstorm had authority to order a mind probe on him. When he woke up again he was hurried along to Tempo on the bridge who just so happened to have a video call up with two other diplomats. Immediately when Stillstorm came back from her toilet break, Tempo established a diplomatic mission with Alex, putting her as the Mizol effectively in charge of Alex. From forum posts and Insider I recall that Loroi have a byzantine and complicated system of caste interactions. So it's likely in my opinion that Tempo can now pull rank on Stillstorm. In fact, we see her do so several times on the bridge.

Alex is then thrown in the brick again. Likely because Tempest is a vessel under combat status and her captain can therefore override certain caste authorities. The guards tasked with Alex however may have been requisitioned by Tempo as military attachees for the diplomatic mission. In that case Tempo probably asked for volunteers first.

If that is true, then every Loroi on the shuttle, apart from maybe the pilots, may be a) a direct subordinate of Tempo (Shoe girl, Beryl) or b) a volunteer to the diplomatic mission (Reed, Fireblade, Beryl). This means Tempo is in charge now. A possible explanation of Beryls shocked expression once Tempo enters the shuttle. Plus Tempo is the political officer assigned to Stillstorm, an outspoken and famous opponent of the Emperor. Who Stillstorm just kicked of her ship

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Re: Page: 118

Post by dragoongfa »

Beryl isn't subordinate to Tempo neither is Fireblade or the Soroin marines. They are all their 'own' agents with similar but possibly conflicting orders. Here is my take on everything.

Beryl is the officer 'in charge' of Alex for the duration of the trip, her demeanor towards Tempo and Talon when they 'intruded' in her task points straight to this fact. She received this task by Stillstorm who wanted the alien OFF her ship as quickly as possible and needed someone to take responsibility for the transit and that very someone should not be a) someone she wanted on the ship b) someone irreplaceable; Beryl fits this to a T from the looks of things and was ecstatic at the prospect.

Fireblade is the officer tasked with both 'protecting' Alex and protecting the Union from Alex. Alex is the absolute unknown for the Loroi, for all they know he is an unimaginably powerful and extremely disciplined telepath of a race that is now working with the Hierarchy. If Alex proves to be hostile Fireblade may have been given the authority to kill him, Tempo and Beryl be damned. The marines are there with her because it's a task she can't really do alone in the worse case scenario and those two probably have had the most interaction with Alex so far. Stillstorm has probably given her this task.

Tempo is the ranking Mizol of Tempest and the 51st. Her duties to her caste and the Union demand that she be around the new alien ambassador, gather as much information about him as possible and manipulate him diplomatically. She will probably defer to Beryl in certain situations but will act on her own accord when the situation demands of it. Hell she might even convince Beryl on a certain course of action that suits her, her caste is a manipulative one after all. Cloud has been established as being Tempo's gopher, so she has to be around. It's quite possible that Tempo has been in cahoots with Fireblade, offering her assistance if Alex is indeed hostile but asking for the Teidar's and her marine's full cooperation if Alex is friendly. The bag that Cloud gave to Fireblade must have something to do with this arrangement. Tempo is probably using her admiralty authority to detach herself from Stillstorm's command. Stillstorm may not even know of her being in the shuttle yet.

Talon and Spiral are the shuttle pilots, they will certainly be debriefed by Stillstorm about the Alien but they don't really have ulterior motives.

So all in all, nothing is as simple as it looks.

Zamballo
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Re: Page: 118

Post by Zamballo »

You're assuming Stillstorm has full authority here. But she clearly has not. See http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider061.html. Stillstorm even remarks later on how convenient for Alex his new role is.

I don't remember anymore where I read that Beryl is a subordinate of Tempo. But both are information officers, with Beryl being the junior one and of a different caste. I could be wrong. Could be just a childhood memory. That she thought Alex would be her responsibility during transit is clear. We don't know yet what exactly she is in charge of. From the look of thinks, she wasn't happy to see Tempo though.

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