Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by Username »

Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy, things are really getting interesting now! :o

I don't think it's possible for the Umiak to reverse-engineer any Human advantage on such short notice assuming a scout got nabbed.
Instead I believe the Stray Fleet was doing a test run of whatever tech the Umiak egg heads came up with. Once they confirmed it worked they spent a few months positioning and mass-producing what ever necessary to cloak who knows how many divisions. Now we shall see how much resolve and adaptability the loroi have.

My bet is they either overrun/bypass Azimol and we see the Royal fleet engaged. Fingers crossed to see a wave-loom fire ! :mrgreen:

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Unfortunately for Talon, and the occupants of Highland-7, I believe the strategically correct move for the Clearbrook in this situation is to hit the proverbial afterburners and leave the system as quickly as possible in order to sound the alarm. Not, as Talon would like, maneuver for an earlier rendezvous.

Also, I would just like to say that the people at the academy were right, Alex is really intelligent. He's already reading the Loroi trade script on the fly.

I don't know what kind of forces the Umiak throw at the Loroi on a regular basis, but I suspect that Klicky-27 was at least not telling a complete falsehood. The Loroi are so accustomed to their farseers working, they must be pretty out of practice at anticipating enemy movements without complete intel. Lucky for them, they just happen to have found an expert. ;)

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by cacambo43 »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Unfortunately for Talon, and the occupants of Highland-7, I believe the strategically correct move for the Clearbrook in this situation is to hit the proverbial afterburners and leave the system as quickly as possible in order to sound the alarm. Not, as Talon would like, maneuver for an earlier rendezvous.

Also, I would just like to say that the people at the academy were right, Alex is really intelligent. He's already reading the Loroi trade script on the fly.

I don't know what kind of forces the Umiak throw at the Loroi on a regular basis, but I suspect that Klicky-27 was at least not telling a complete falsehood. The Loroi are so accustomed to their farseers working, they must be pretty out of practice at anticipating enemy movements without complete intel. Lucky for them, they just happen to have found an expert. ;)
Yeah. He must seem like a tactical genius of geniuses - but that might only make them trust him LESS, as he seems to be able to "anticipate" the enemy's moves that way. If he can convince the powers that be that he's not a hostile, he might just save the Union. IF.

CJSF

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by inxsi »

Victor_D wrote:
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:Your meta-analysis is very off, if for no other reason than that Arioch has said that Stillstorm's cabin is going to feature in the story (along with her rather impressive cutlery collection,) and that can't happen if Tempest goes kablooie.
I am not aware of that. We'll see.
Easily solvable as a problem (I apologize to everyone in advance for this, those who want to skip silliness can avoid it):
SpoilerShow
Next page is Stillstorm in her cabin, polishing some of her knives. Hologram popup:
Voice: Commander, you're needed on the bridge.
Stillstorm: But you're on my ship. Why aren't you using Sanzai?
Voice: The script says "plot exposition", er, I, mean, I'm using words so as not to panic the crew.
Stillstorm: Very well, continue.
Voice: Commander? Are you crying?
Stillstorm: I'm not crying alone over having to send Fireblade away as the price of getting rid of that annoying Tempo and Beryl and that Umiak spy Alex of the plants or whatever his name supposedly was. I'm clearly cutting the Loroi equivalent of onions. Yeah, that's it.
Voice: But we don't have onions nor would we cut them... never mind. Why are you carrying the display around your cabin?
Stillstorm: I'm not showing off my swank cabin while drawing a nice hot bubble bath for a soak while I pout over losing Fireblade and my personal shuttle. I should have figured out how to send Ashrain with them as an escort to get rid of her too.
Voice: Large enemy force emerging from Rallis. Also, way too much information in the dialog.
Stillstorm: Freaking readers speculating on the comic, you should see what they gave me to work with. I mean, they didn't even figure out what character you should be.
Voice: Ah, sorry commander.
Stillstorm: Rallis? Well, guess that shell wasn't lying. Time to go fight a desperate holding action while we wait for our ship to go kablooie.
Voice: Commander? Sometimes I wish you'd be a little less direct and honest with us.
Stillstorm: I will not be party to the vocal instrument of lies and deceit! Who cares about our human readers? Probably all spies like flower boy or whatever.
[Author's note: Ironically, the Tempest would have survived but for the bathtub overflowing and shorting out the defensive shields at a critical moment of really badly foreshadowed plot]

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by inxsi »

dragoonfa wrote:For some reason I also have the feeling that we are about to see a very pissed off Fireblade who is going to make sure that the alien with the Lotai who may be an enemy agent is always within killing distance.
I wonder what the reaction will be. I could see Tempo wanting Fireblade closer in case she needs to kill Alex with the thought that Alex is an enemy agent but I don't think Tempo's convinced yet. I imagine Tempo's thinking "he's either the smartest enemy agent, or the dumbest, or the most unlucky innocent third-party ever."

Scary thought: What's if the Loroi get concerned that Alex has some kind of anti-telekinetic ability he has not revealed yet in addition to his Lotai. Though maybe Fireblade would still be confident in her pyrokinesis?
dragoongfa wrote:After a hard refresh Beryl's eyes are now right, although her shocked expression is something that I didn't anticipate
I think she truly believed that everything Kikitik-27 said was a lie and is just now realizing how far the Umiak might be penetrating with hidden fleets on what the Loroi considered "safe" regions, and she has just internalized how bad that could be.

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by Krulle »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Unfortunately for Talon, and the occupants of Highland-7, I believe the strategically correct move for the Clearbrook in this situation is to hit the proverbial afterburners and leave the system as quickly as possible in order to sound the alarm. Not, as Talon would like, maneuver for an earlier rendezvous.<
Hullo, Hullo.

Me thinks there will be ships better positioned for the alarm jump than the Clearbrook.
(There seems to be something stationed at Gora Relay.)
The shuttle will need the Clearbrook for its own survival.
Also it may well be the Clearbrook is accelerating too, and that the two will jump earlier this way. And the docking will simply be done at higher speeds than originally foreseen.

In any case, increased speed is of essence everywhere in this system now.
To get out of the way of the ships which do have big guns.
To spread alarms.
To secure your own ship as far as possible.
For whetever reason.

But "normal proceedings" are on hold right now, as the whole system is gearing up for immediate fights.
Adn all others need to scurry out of the way, or do their duty in supporting those who fight.

(Also: shouldn't the telepathic warnings from the in-system Rallis jump-station have reached the rest of the system hours BEFORE the light-speed limited electronic signals?
No farseer (or other sensitive telepath around) in-system to scan around for signals? Even just the ones from the Rallis jump-station?
or am I misreading the red station there, and that signals just an automatic drone station?)
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by entity2636 »

Krulle wrote:(Also: shouldn't the telepathic warnings from the in-system Rallis jump-station have reached the rest of the system hours BEFORE the light-speed limited electronic signals?
No farseer (or other sensitive telepath around) in-system to scan around for signals? Even just the ones from the Rallis jump-station?
or am I misreading the red station there, and that signals just an automatic drone station?)
Yes, IFoF sensor buoys are automatic and the traffic control stations are manned by the Neridi (non-telepaths) who also serve as inter-system couriers. Since the Umiak ships don't have IFoF transponders the Loroi needed visual ID from the Torrent who happened to be on patrol nearby.

Also, normal telepathy is relatively close ranged, somewhere around 100 metres or so and farseers typically sit way back behind at large bases. But farseers are useless now because the Umiak have found a way to become invisible to them, how else could they get 1000+ ships into Loroi's back yard without them knowing?

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

There does appear to be a courier looking ship at the Gora Relay, but there doesn't seem to be anything at the Azimol relay. They will probably want a message to reach Azimol and Seren, and considering that alarms from Sala 101 and Sala 128 both arrived nearly simultaneously with the attack on Leido Crossroads itself, I wouldn't place a bet one way or another on whether there is an attack in progress on Gora as well. Perhaps I am wrong about this, maybe a lone military vessel wouldn't have much more survivability than a courier, but it might help.

Also, if I recall correctly, ships need to build up speed in the correct vector before making a jump, it could be that the Clearbrook has a head start on the Gora releay courier. I don't know where the actual jump lanes are, though. So I will concede that the courier might be able to jump immediately, but depending on the maneuvering ability of the attackers, it might also be optimal to send that courier to Azimol directly.

Yes, the shuttle will need the Clearbrook for its own survival. That was part of the point I was trying to make, that the shuttle may be considered expendable for the survival of the Union.

I believe that the Clearbrook is under acceleration. Beryl said it was on an outbound vector already. The fact is that the Clearbrook has a much higher acceleration than the Highland Seven. It should have 32gs as opposed to the Highland's 20. I don't know what their starting velocities were, but considering that the Clearbrook was stated to be on outbound vector before the Highland Seven launched, and they're ahead on the display, I suspect that they had a head start and were slowing themselves down to let the Highland catch up.

That is my analysis based on some admittedly incomplete information.

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by Arioch »

There are three significant problems with the Umiak using unmanned warships.

First is that since ships in this milieu have crews, we must assume that they are necessary for the proper function of a ship in combat (damage control, maintenance and repair, and optimal combat utilization). So any automated combat vessels are going to be less effective than manned vessels (even with expensive and complicated extra automation); otherwise, they'd all be drones to begin with.

Second is that since the Umiak have no FTL communication, unmanned ships must rely wholly on AI and preprogrammed instructions both for tactical effectiveness and strategic direction. The longer and more complex the mission, the less likely your automated fleet will do what you want it to do (especially since the Loroi, who will know the fleet is unmanned, will be doing everything they can to confuse and misdirect the AI).

Third, and perhaps most importantly, the Loroi have Historian allies who have significantly more advanced information technology than the Umiak, and who are computer infiltration experts. Any completely automated control system would be at significant risk of being compromised by a Historian hacker, in which case you'd be literally handing a fleet to the enemy.

In short, the use of automated fleets by the Umiak would be a desperation move, and the Umiak are not currently desperate.

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by Arent »

Arioch wrote:There are three significant problems with the Umiak using unmanned warships.

First is that since ships in this milieu have crews, we must assume that they are necessary for the proper function of a ship in combat (damage control, maintenance and repair, and optimal combat utilization). So any automated combat vessels are going to be less effective than manned vessels (even with expensive and complicated extra automation); otherwise, they'd all be drones to begin with.

Second is that since the Umiak have no FTL communication, unmanned ships must rely wholly on AI and preprogrammed instructions both for tactical effectiveness and strategic direction. The longer and more complex the mission, the less likely your automated fleet will do what you want it to do (especially since the Loroi, who will know the fleet is unmanned, will be doing everything they can to confuse and misdirect the AI).

Third, and perhaps most importantly, the Loroi have Historian allies who have significantly more advanced information technology than the Umiak, and who are computer infiltration experts. Any completely automated control system would be at significant risk of being compromised by a Historian hacker, in which case you'd be literally handing a fleet to the enemy.

In short, the use of automated fleets by the Umiak would be a desperation move, and the Umiak are not currently desperate.
Ok, then let's put the Umiak crews in a freezer, program an autopilot & unfreeze them shortly before arrival :mrgreen:

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by Arioch »

Arent wrote:Ok, then let's put the Umiak crews in a freezer, program an autopilot & unfreeze them shortly before arrival
Alas, Umiakcicles would still be detectable by Farseers.

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by Arent »

Arioch wrote:
Arent wrote:Ok, then let's put the Umiak crews in a freezer, program an autopilot & unfreeze them shortly before arrival
Alas, Umiakcicles would still be detectable by Farseers.
But whyyyy? :shock: They shouldn't think anything!
Last edited by Arent on Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by boldilocks »

Arent wrote:
Arioch wrote:
Arent wrote:Ok, then let's put the Umiak crews in a freezer, program an autopilot & unfreeze them shortly before arrival
Alas, Umiakcicles would still be detectable by Farseers.
But whyyyy? :shock: They should think anything!
They dream of cold six-limbed sheep.

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by Arioch »

Farseers don't detect thought, they detect the presence of the mind.

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by inxsi »

icekatze wrote:Also, if I recall correctly, ships need to build up speed in the correct vector before making a jump, it could be that the Clearbrook has a head start on the Gora releay courier. I don't know where the actual jump lanes are, though. So I will concede that the courier might be able to jump immediately, but depending on the maneuvering ability of the attackers, it might also be optimal to send that courier to Azimol directly.
From http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_system_defense.html (I cut part of the quote about why the courier system is used):
System Defense wrote:... a courier vessel can get underway and up to jump speed in about an hour...
icekatze wrote:There does appear to be a courier looking ship at the Gora Relay, but there doesn't seem to be anything at the Azimol relay. They will probably want a message to reach Azimol and Seren, and considering that alarms from Sala 101 and Sala 128 both arrived nearly simultaneously with the attack on Leido Crossroads itself, I wouldn't place a bet one way or another on whether there is an attack in progress on Gora as well. Perhaps I am wrong about this, maybe a lone military vessel wouldn't have much more survivability than a courier, but it might help.
There is whatever the unlabled white icon is (below the Clearbrook and to the left of the system buoy). But I'm not sure what the icon represents. And the two blue icons near the Tizaba depot - which might be the supply convoy that SG-51 had met? I think they would want to send the Clearbrook to Seren and the Gora relay courier to Azimol (since the Clearbrook is currently heading towards the Seren relay and would need to decelerate to head towards Azimol). I believe at this point the Loroi in system would be paranoid enough to insist on something going right to Azimol to warn them - too many strange breakdowns in communication and sensing to trust that something could go through Gora to Azimol.
inxsi wrote:I think she truly believed that everything Kikitik-27 said was a lie and is just now realizing how far the Umiak might be penetrating with hidden fleets on what the Loroi considered "safe" regions, and she has just internalized how bad that could be.
Thinking this over, I'm not so sure that Beryl was surprised at the failure of farseers to detect the new enemy fleet. I think she was hoping that Kikitik-27 was lying but was prepared to believe it to be possible as a worst case assumption, so I'm wondering if the checkpoints are some other system - the only thing coming to mind are courier vessels, but I am not aware of whether the Loroi would deploy couriers to Rallis. Something I'll try to keep in mind at least.

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

If I'm reading the display correctly, the white shapes with hexagon borders are stationary posts, while the various colored shapes with circular borders are ships. If that is correct, then the object near the Azimol jump lane is a stationary object. Green is a color associated with military, and blue with civilian, but I'm not sure that 100% correlates here. Still, those two objects next to Strike Group 51, and the identical two objects next to Tizaba Depot are the outlines of transport ships.

I'm assuming that since this is a white dwarf, and because of the time Beryl said it would take to rendezvous with the Clearbrook, that the scale on this map is pretty short range. Planetary bodies that either survive a supernova, or form afterwards from the debris, that we've detected in real life seem to be much closer in. Depending on the enemy's incoming velocity, they could be on top of the defenders in a very short time.

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by Mr Bojangles »

Beryl is definitely having an "OH @!#$" moment and I'm sure Alex would much prefer the non-ironic use of the phrase "may you live in interesting times."

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by SVlad »

What is approximate lightspeed delay from that buoy to Highlander-7 and to Leido-Sala post? And from Leido-Sala post to Highlander-7?
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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by discord »

no real scale to check, but a guesstimate from me based on the system and that jump points tend to the outer part of the system would be 1 hour minimum, probably closer to 3, but it depends wildly on how large the star in question is, as in brown dwarf would be a matter of light minutes from a jump point on one side to one on the other whereas a supergiant would probably be days if not weeks.

hmm, looking at the insider, our solar system would have a jumpzone about 4-5 AU out.... and given that the star seems white should give it a bit more of a gravity well(or a lot more if it's blue), lets say 8 AU that gives us about 64 minutes, and given that the highlander is 1/3 to the other side, about 90 minutes lag would be my final guess.

this is just me guessing, and seeing how close i am to The Word of God.

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Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

The star is explicitly stated to be a white dwarf remnant, which are known to have masses between 0.17 and 1.4 solar masses.

All the planetary objects that we've detected around white dwarfs in real life have been very close in. Although it is expected that we will eventually find some further out, especially due to the protoplanetary disk found orbiting Mira B, the closest uninhabitable bodies mentioned are probably very close in.

The Highwind class shuttles have a listed acceleration of 20g. 19,200 solon equals 5.82 hours. At a constant acceleration of 20g for 5.82 hours, the total displacement is ~0.2876 AU. (~2.33 light minutes.)

I don't know what the initial velocity was when the Highwind was launched, but given that Strikegroup 51 is still next to the Leido-Sala post, I am guessing that their initial velocity was not significantly higher.

My conservative estimate is that everything is happening within a 1 AU radius sphere, possibly much closer.

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