New Page 128

[Arent]

hi hi

The more I think about it, the less confident I am about Loroi relationships. I mean, it is totally normal where I'm from for friends to give each other a hard time, but not really being serious as a trust thing. But Beryl doesn't even seem to notice Alex's expression when he said it's "Wonderful..." that Fireblade and company were going along. So is irony and sarcasm a thing that Loroi don't really do, or is Beryl just unusually dense? One might assume that all of the captains in the strike group have met each other in person at least once, so it'd make sense that they know how each other feel via sanzai and not really be able to cover that up later.

I assume that Alex is a complete mystery to the Loroi. I mean, usually they know what others are thinking - even other species. And now they suddenly have to rely on what Alex is saying, his gestures etc. It's like they are suddenly blind or deaf & have to rely on their other senses. If you are untrained in that, because you never needed it, that might result in quite a bit confusion.

[cacambo43]

hi hi

The more I think about it, the less confident I am about Loroi relationships. I mean, it is totally normal where I'm from for friends to give each other a hard time, but not really being serious as a trust thing. But Beryl doesn't even seem to notice Alex's expression when he said it's "Wonderful..." that Fireblade and company were going along. So is irony and sarcasm a thing that Loroi don't really do, or is Beryl just unusually dense? One might assume that all of the captains in the strike group have met each other in person at least once, so it'd make sense that they know how each other feel via sanzai and not really be able to cover that up later.

I assume that Alex is a complete mystery to the Loroi. I mean, usually they know what others are thinking - even other species. And now they suddenly have to rely on what Alex is saying, his gestures etc. It's like they are suddenly blind or deaf & have to rely on their other senses. If you are untrained in that, because you never needed it, that might result in quite a bit confusion.

I suppose so, but they seem to emote pretty well, regardless. Given Alex's remark about Beryl's laugh, I wonder what he made of Stillstorm's maniacal outburst upon trashing Bellarmine, and man, she looked pissed after that.

I expect the human reliance on words as trust will become a contested point again and I am looking forward to Alex and some of the other "team" members figuring that part out. It's asking a LOT of a Loroi to trust Alex (or any human), and the fact that some of them at least are willing to try, is interesting to me.

CJSF

[boldilocks]

Well, the last page update made the loroi wagers a lot less sexy than my fevered imagination led me to fantasise.

[boldilocks]

If it means we get pages out faster, I'm fine with it. Super-professional Arclight is just so consistent, she even looks at the viewscreen in exactly the same manner every time she broadcasts.

She found showing up on monitors inefficient, when she could be reporting intruder numbers and doing inventory spreadsheets and calisthenics simultaneously, so that's just a carton cutout she left at her workstation.

[Sweforce]

If it means we get pages out faster, I'm fine with it. Super-professional Arclight is just so consistent, she even looks at the viewscreen in exactly the same manner every time she broadcasts.

She found showing up on monitors inefficient, when she could be reporting intruder numbers and doing inventory spreadsheets and calisthenics simultaneously, so that's just a carton cutout she left at her workstation.

[SVlad]

Edit log is very helpful, thanks Arioch.

[entity2636]

@SVlad - from your Russian translation of Page 128 on https://acomics.ru/~outsider/ it's black on white that the wager between Moonglow and Ashrain was, who ever gets most kills gets resupplied first, ahead of the Admiral's own ship and escort and everyone else. I don't get that impression from the original... Or is it in the updated version and I'm still seeing the old one?

By the way, it's thanks to your translation that I found this excellent comic and the forum

Regardless, if it were indeed the case and the two Captains (sorry, I mean Captain and Commodore) had such a "prize" for the winner of their little competition, at least to me it would look highly unprofessional and bordering on negligence.

What does Stillstorm think about it? Is she OK with such will of one's own, or is this happening behind her back somehow? Shouldn't ships that are low on fuel, have taken damage and have wounded on board, or are low on ordnance be given top priority, rather than who won a cup size measuring contest (or the Loroi equivalent of dick measuring) this time?

What I mean is, fleet actions and warfare as such is not a competition between officers and, in my humble opinion, such competitions should be discouraged, maybe unless the respective Captains operate on their own like lone wolf commerce raiders. Competitions like this can cause said officers to make uninformed decisions and take actions that can have bad consequences for other squadrons or the rest of the fleet that they at that time may not be aware of, not following the Admiral's battle plan or doing something the Admiral did not expect them to do thus compromising the battle plan, i.e., ships breaking formation to chase after more kills and exposing the fleet's flanks, having turned such as to take potshots at strategically unimportant targets thus ignoring something more important or dangerous, not being able to concentrate fire on where it's needed, not being close enough to cover someone who got focused on, etc.

I may be stretching it here, but this competition could be seen as what ultimately got Nova killed and may get Ashrain killed in the end together with the rest of her crew.

[SVlad]

entity2636, actually I got exactly that impression from original.
Alos, last time Loroi said "i bet on something" she literally meant betting money. I think there is same case.

[entity2636]

Alos, last time Loroi said "i bet on something" she literally meant betting money. I think there is same case.

I think there's a slight difference between betting one's money on something and betting one's or someone else's lives

[icekatze]

hi hi

... Or is it in the updated version and I'm still seeing the old one?

The updated page 128 explicitly says that Ashrain won resupply priority when she won the wager. Perhaps try reloading?

Luck is with you Black Razor. The wager that won you resupply priority now puts you at the head of a fleet!

The wager certainly isn't a secret, because everyone on the bridge of the Tempest saw the same communications that Alex did while he was observing. (Also, I think the closest thing to dick measuring that the Loroi do is hair length measuring.)

I don't think it is fair to say that the wager between Moonglow and Ashrain caused the demise of the Winter Tide. If Ashrain had been so eager to rack up kills that she made tactical errors, she would have used up the Tolot Blisters in the previous battle.

Stillstorm seems to give her subordinates some leeway, and is not micromanaging every aspect of the other ships' operations, but it is clear that everyone in the fleet respects her authority. When she said, "don't pursue beyond seven-one-seven," they followed orders. When she said, "all fire on zone one," they followed orders. When she said, "Cease pursuit. All vessels, return to formation," it wasn't an immediate response to people breaking formation, but a response to hearing that the Umiak weren't going to make another pass, and that they needed to pick up survivors.

As Beryl boasts, the 51st is a veteran unit. I suspect that breaking formation and chasing down enemy ships after a pass like that is standard procedure for them by now.

As for the resupply priority. I think it makes sense that Moonglow and Ashrain would have wagered something that they had the authority to offer. If Moonglow was already first in line for resupply, then she could be in a position to let Ashrain ahead of her. When Ashrain said she was ready to head to Sala to reinforce the defenses there, Stillstorm was very clear that the whole strike group would go together. If the plan was for everyone to move out together, then who got first resupply should have been a non-issue. I'm not sure any ship was more low on fuel and ordinance than any other, since they were moving as a group, and they were all out of ordinance.

I don't think that the resupply convoy has facilities to repair damaged ships, although Arioch would probably be the only one who knows for sure, and I don't think moving wounded off of ships really counts as resupply.

[Arioch]

In most browsers you have to hard-reload (Ctrl+F5 or Ctrl+[refresh button]) to see modified images.

I don't think it is fair to say that the wager between Moonglow and Ashrain caused the demise of the Winter Tide. If Ashrain had been so eager to rack up kills that she made tactical errors, she would have used up the Tolot Blisters in the previous battle.

If anything, Ashrain's actions during the battle prevented Winter Tide from being destroyed outright.

I don't think that the resupply convoy has facilities to repair damaged ships, although Arioch would probably be the only one who knows for sure, and I don't think moving wounded off of ships really counts as resupply.

The stake in Moonglow & Ashrain's wager was which of their squadrons had priority to be resupplied before the other. This had no impact on the resupply priority of any other squadrons (including Stillstorm's own), the offloading of casualties, or any other critical process. They would obviously not be able to do this if they did not have authorization from the group commander, and said commander could override this priority if the need arose.

Resupply convoys don't have any direct ability to repair vessels. Warships that were damaged badly enough to need repair facilities would be dispatched back to Azimol (as several ships were after the first engagement at Naam). None of the vessels in the group currently have significant damage, but a number of them have casualties removed from Thunderbolt, some of which were probably evacuated to the convoy using those ships' own shuttles.

[Jericho]

To be honest after re-reading the page i find that i liked the old dialouge better. The new one feels clunky and non-immersive. I don't understand why the wager has to be explained in the comic since it doesn't seem to have any real storytelling purpose. I never had any problem following the dialouge and it felt more natural then the one we got now. Right know it feels like Moonglow is adressing the audience and not Ashrain. This doesn't look like natural dialouge and I don't see whats been added to the enjoyment of the page. I my opinion this actually makes it less fun to read.

If the wager was of critical importance then Alex should have asked about it and Beryl or Tempo could have explained it. Anyway thats just what i thought about it. Better to have smooth fun dialouge then a wikipedia article (thats what the insider is for).

[Arent]

To be honest after re-reading the page i find that i liked the old dialouge better. The new one feels clunky and non-immersive. I don't understand why the wager has to be explained in the comic since it doesn't seem to have any real storytelling purpose. I never had any problem following the dialouge and it felt more natural then the one we got now. Right know it feels like Moonglow is adressing the audience and not Ashrain. This doesn't look like natural dialouge and I don't see whats been added to the enjoyment of the page. I my opinion this actually makes it less fun to read.

If the wager was of critical importance then Alex should have asked about it and Beryl or Tempo could have explained it. Anyway thats just what i thought about it. Better to have smooth fun dialouge then a wikipedia article (thats what the insider is for).

I have to agree that I had the impression that the wording is a bit clunky. However, I forgot the old dialogue, so I can't compare it anymore.

[dragoongfa]

To be honest after re-reading the page i find that i liked the old dialouge better. The new one feels clunky and non-immersive. I don't understand why the wager has to be explained in the comic since it doesn't seem to have any real storytelling purpose. I never had any problem following the dialouge and it felt more natural then the one we got now. Right know it feels like Moonglow is adressing the audience and not Ashrain. This doesn't look like natural dialouge and I don't see whats been added to the enjoyment of the page. I my opinion this actually makes it less fun to read.

If the wager was of critical importance then Alex should have asked about it and Beryl or Tempo could have explained it. Anyway thats just what i thought about it. Better to have smooth fun dialouge then a wikipedia article (thats what the insider is for).

I think that such clunky dialogue is more appropriate for Loroi than humans because it is far from their natural and primary form of communication which is Sanzai. In Sanzai the message carries a great deal of ancillary information and in this case said information would be exactly what the dialogue says, i.e. You won the wager of resupply priority and now you go into this mess.
A wordsmith, a capable Mizol like Tempo, would be able to say things in a way that would seem natural to us but to a Loroi it would seem 'duplicitous' and Mizol like.

TL;DR, speaking is an 'unnatural' form of communication for Loroi and as such it should seem unnatural to those who naturally communicate via speaking.

[Jericho]

To be honest after re-reading the page i find that i liked the old dialouge better. The new one feels clunky and non-immersive. I don't understand why the wager has to be explained in the comic since it doesn't seem to have any real storytelling purpose. I never had any problem following the dialouge and it felt more natural then the one we got now. Right know it feels like Moonglow is adressing the audience and not Ashrain. This doesn't look like natural dialouge and I don't see whats been added to the enjoyment of the page. I my opinion this actually makes it less fun to read.

If the wager was of critical importance then Alex should have asked about it and Beryl or Tempo could have explained it. Anyway thats just what i thought about it. Better to have smooth fun dialouge then a wikipedia article (thats what the insider is for).

I think that such clunky dialogue is more appropriate for Loroi than humans because it is far from their natural and primary form of communication which is Sanzai. In Sanzai the message carries a great deal of ancillary information and in this case said information would be exactly what the dialogue says, i.e. You won the wager of resupply priority and now you go into this mess.
A wordsmith, a capable Mizol like Tempo, would be able to say things in a way that would seem natural to us but to a Loroi it would seem 'duplicitous' and Mizol like.

TL;DR, speaking is an 'unnatural' form of communication for Loroi and as such it should seem unnatural to those who naturally communicate via speaking.

Except there is a difference between clunky speech and clunky dialouge. Spiral is an excellent example of clunky speech, it's almost like she struggles to find the right words. Stillstorm demonstrated earlier that the loroi are fully capapble of understanding turn of the phrases when she says keep the handle on the blade.

The problem is that Ashrain and Moonglow know each other. They know what the wager is about. The only one who doesn't is the audience therefore the dialouge doesn't adress the characters but the audience instead. It's fun to read about how they picked up Jardin because the clunky speech makes sense in that context. It makes Spiral look cute and it gives feeling to the dialouge. Moonglow explaining a private wager to her peer is not an example of clunky speech but rather an attempt to shoehorn a bit of info that no one asked for or needs. It's out of context and distracting. If she'd simply said that Ashrain won the bet we could easily understand that they have a competition/rivalry going on and leave it at that.

I'm not against clunky speaking in the comic but i'm against the characters adressing the audience rather than each other. Jardin is our eyes and ears in to this story so any details that are important must go through his perspective. Otherwise it just looks wierd.

[dragoongfa]

I think that I could have put my earlier comment down clearer, I think that Moonglow tried to pass along everything as she would do in Sanzai, which as a mode of communication passes a LOT of ancillary communication in regards to the subject that is discussed. Moonglow's vocabulary and grammar is better than Spiral's but that doesn't mean that she wouldn't fall into the mental trap of trying to say everything or as much as she would if the discussion had been done telepathically.

I imagine that it is impossible to accurately transcribe Sanzai since writing and speaking are far more limited forms of communication but this is what I have in my head in regards to how Moonglow's dialog would look like if they were conversing telepathically:

Moonglow: It was due to luck why you won the wager we made at [Date of Wager] about whose squadron would resupply first by destroying [X] Shell ships to my [Y] ships (it could get more in depth if the wager also included the class of ships destroyed). The result of said luck shows now that you command a fleet of [X] ships against a force of 5 Shell divisions. You will need said luck to fight such odds and I think that you shouldn't sell yourself cheaply since your death is certain. I will light a lamp when I see your inevitable defeat and death.

There is bound to be even more ancillary information thrown in since Sanzai also includes emotions about everything. All in all I think that Moonglow tried to cram as much of said Ancillary information in her message as she could as a force of habit which creates clunky looking dialog.

[entity2636]

Thanks, "hard reload" fixed it for me, never had this problem before.

To be honest, although the new dialogue feels more natural as speech, I also think that Moonglow saying "the wager that won you resupply priority" feels out of place. They both know what the wager was about, it is Jardin and us, the readers, who do not. Moonglow doesn't have to remind Ashrain what it was about, we need to know if it is important (apparently it is) and so the info should have been either implied somehow or come from a third party.

Moonglow could have said something along the lines of "How unexpectedly your luck winning our wager put you in charge of a fleet. I'm not sure whether to congratulate or commiserate you as you will need all your luck where you're headed. I will light a lamp for you. Don't spend yourself too cheaply!"

I would not be at all surprised for a Loroi Commodore and a Captain having an extensive vocabulary and being comfortable with speech. They are old enough, have seen enough and met enough other people and probably communicated plenty with Listels and Mizols to get a good hang of speech, figures of speech and some sarcasm.

As far as Stillstorm is concerned, she was so blunt with Alex because she already has a lot of problems of her own right now and at least some of them are related to him, Alex is a weird alien and to top it all off, Tempo dragged him onto her bridge during combat. Stillstorm has been through a lot - it is implied that she has suffered a lot both privately and professionally and thus comes across as jaded and emotionally dead inside.

[Jericho]

I think that I could have put my earlier comment down clearer, I think that Moonglow tried to pass along everything as she would do in Sanzai, which as a mode of communication passes a LOT of ancillary communication in regards to the subject that is discussed. Moonglow's vocabulary and grammar is better than Spiral's but that doesn't mean that she wouldn't fall into the mental trap of trying to say everything or as much as she would if the discussion had been done telepathically.

I imagine that it is impossible to accurately transcribe Sanzai since writing and speaking are far more limited forms of communication but this is what I have in my head in regards to how Moonglow's dialog would look like if they were conversing telepathically:

Moonglow: It was due to luck why you won the wager we made at [Date of Wager] about whose squadron would resupply first by destroying [X] Shell ships to my [Y] ships (it could get more in depth if the wager also included the class of ships destroyed). The result of said luck shows now that you command a fleet of [X] ships against a force of 5 Shell divisions. You will need said luck to fight such odds and I think that you shouldn't sell yourself cheaply since your death is certain. I will light a lamp when I see your inevitable defeat and death.

There is bound to be even more ancillary information thrown in since Sanzai also includes emotions about everything. All in all I think that Moonglow tried to cram as much of said Ancillary information in her message as she could as a force of habit which creates clunky looking dialog.

I'm not convinced. Looking back at the comic i see no evidence that Moonglow ever had this quirk when she spoke to Ashrain before. It's a very complicated way of explaining the way she talks and it really just opens more qustions than it answers. If we have to assume this much subtext in the dialouge then that simply shows that it's not good dialouge. The first version was perfectly clear about what they were talking about and it was more immersive then the current one.

I think the comic already adressed the loroi view of speaking when you have a hard time figuring out what to say (page 39) so your explaination would contradict this.

Personally i think that the loroi aversion to verbal communication will be better represented in a short and direct fasion. They don't like to talk more then they have to. A loroi might come off as being very pedantic and they probably wouldn't get jokes that quickly but i don't see a way for this scene to be anything other then a way to explain to the audience what they are talking about in a way that just doesn't work as well as it could.

[cacambo43]

Much of the dialog since Alex started looking at the star maps is in the vein of making the audience aware of the story. What passes between the Loroi on the shuttle (not the Loroi out in the fleet or on Clearbrook) as the current crisis unfolds would have been done in sanzai, probably reflexively. One can argue that they are all speaking for Alex's benefit, but given the seriousness and speed at which things are happening, that's unlikely. But for storytelling purposes, it needs to be done this way. Putting half the dialog in thought balloons would be...weird.

CJSF

[icekatze]

hi hi

In my opinion, having Moonglow call specific attention to the individual wager in the dialogue makes it more pointed. When it was just some wager which shall remain nameless, it felt more like she was distancing herself from the competition and therefore sounding more genuine as a result. In being more specific, she is bringing the wager to the front and center, it does sound more like a double edged compliment.