Uncanny resemblance.

[Arioch]

I found it hard to buy the line that the Abh were benevolent conquerers, given how many of them with actual screen time were absolutely nuts.

I think it's the chief problem with the series; the Abh are conquerors on a crusade to impose their way of life on all of Humanity, for no discernable reason other than that they can. The human main character is a pipsqueak who's only important because his father sold his own people out to the Abh, and he's only on of the side of the Abh because he's got the hots for an Abh princess. I was constantly rooting for the Humans to kill them all.

[NOMAD]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpaceElves

Did anyone notice, ( for I'm sure some of the reader here did see it) that still storm is part of the college of Space elves ?. Hasn't been mentioned yet, but just in case.

As well, I really enjoyed Crest/Banner of the Stars series ( I just wished they finished the series with the final book, since I can't find english translation anymore ). I found the whole, exploring the culture of the Abh was interesting and the ship-to-ship battles and tactics were different, then most series I've seen ( I admit I'm very preferential in my tastes). As for the whole taking "over the human race to be Abh" angle, I disagree with you Arioch. Since IIRC, the Abh only wanted to control the space and Sords ( the FLT gateways), their "home". Governing planets were left up to the planets inhabitants.

I'm I biaist toward Crest yep, but no series is perfect ( call me a liar )

[Ktrain]

No, Nomand. Planetside autonomy was only tolerated when worlds were isolated; the Ahb had incinerated atmospheres of worlds that would not be subjugated and starved others that wished to remain neutral of food imports. The Ahb viewed terrestrial worlds only as a source of resources. Conquered worlds were subject to an extractive prerogative. There were some moments where individual Ahb expressed regret or dissatisfaction for the way their state behaved, but then those same individuals went on to support the war effort. No real dissent or resistance. The Ahb state was a feudalistic hierarchy and terrans were serfs who had little to no say on what policies were imposed upon them (sometimes I think this show was a commentary of Japanese culture/romanticized feudalism), there was nothing benevolent about it (well maybe to their turncoats).

[Tamren]

IIRC obedience for Abh is actually genetic.

[NOMAD]

No, Nomand. Planetside autonomy was only tolerated when worlds were isolated; the Ahb had incinerated atmospheres of worlds that would not be subjugated and starved others that wished to remain neutral of food imports. The Ahb viewed terrestrial worlds only as a source of resources. Conquered worlds were subject to an extractive prerogative. There were some moments where individual Ahb expressed regret or dissatisfaction for the way their state behaved, but then those same individuals went on to support the war effort. No real dissent or resistance. The Ahb state was a feudalistic hierarchy and terrans were serfs who had little to no say on what policies were imposed upon them (sometimes I think this show was a commentary of Japanese culture/romanticized feudalism), there was nothing benevolent about it (well maybe to their turncoats).

well you do have a point, I don't/can't see alot of the deeper abstract meaning of alot of things ( to my frustration). But I'm still a fan of the series and the moral choice of both the humans and Abh.

IIRC obedience for Abh is actually genetic.

got that right, they were genetically alter to be obedient: however, they turn on their masters, because of fear. yet, they did regret it and pass on this part of the their history through the generations. As for Their conquered nations, I do recall some compliance, but the crown prince ( or first in line) said it very well, and to the order of: the governance of your planet is not your concern, we just want to take over the FTL sord next to your world. However, since your close to the Sord we would like your surrender he said it so much better than me.

[Darth Cloaked Guy]

Slight deviation from topic (related via Syreen):

I find it completely awesome that you also like Star Control II, Arioch. If your awesomeness level was otherwise at infinity, well, this is infinity plus one.

[Voitan]

Their hair is blue, but their skin being so pale as to appear blue while in a low light enviroment, such as when they are lit by the light from their info screens.

I think it more of a way to represent low light/night by using more blue shading than it is the hair reflecting on the skin.

You didn't actually read my post did you?

[Karst45]

Their hair is blue, but their skin being so pale as to appear blue while in a low light enviroment, such as when they are lit by the light from their info screens.

I think it more of a way to represent low light/night by using more blue shading than it is the hair reflecting on the skin.

You didn't actually read my post did you?

well with the quantity of wall of there there is here, you cant blame me for reading quickly.

[Tash]

Sorry, no, gelatinous space octopi with glowing eyes would be unable to fill the Lorikin role in the narrative.

Specifically, that of answering the question of "what happened to the elves?"

I suppose they COULD, in THEORY, be some sort of extradimensional horror that replaced the space-elves after being somehow summoned there through experimentation

Nnnot what I meant.
I'm talking about the plot at its most basic level, 'Officer X does Fleet Action Y' or 'Polity X enacts Measure Y' for example, not literally removing your characters for a permanent time.
If X can be swapped out for X sub 1, your story holds water because it doesn't rely just on the species, but rather on action.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with space elves- to the contrary, they make a lovely framing device- but rather that a story that focuses too much on species, like a story that spends ages going on about the technology inside, starts to drag and feel flat, because in a story, skin is just skin; Outsider would be just as cool if it were space serpents and silicoid dog people in place of Loroi and Umiak, because the plot elements work at a basic level that doesn't require species to be cohesive.

Just my opinion, I suppose. I can only comment based on my lens of perception.

[Darth Cloaked Guy]

Nnnot what I meant.
I'm talking about the plot at its most basic level, 'Officer X does Fleet Action Y' or 'Polity X enacts Measure Y' for example, not literally removing your characters for a permanent time.
If X can be swapped out for X sub 1, your story holds water because it doesn't rely just on the species, but rather on action.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with space elves- to the contrary, they make a lovely framing device- but rather that a story that focuses too much on species, like a story that spends ages going on about the technology inside, starts to drag and feel flat, because in a story, skin is just skin; Outsider would be just as cool if it were space serpents and silicoid dog people in place of Loroi and Umiak, because the plot elements work at a basic level that doesn't require species to be cohesive.

Just my opinion, I suppose. I can only comment based on my lens of perception.

Ah. Well, I don't have any plot at that sort of level yet, I'm still working on developing the setting. Gotta build the box before you fill it with sand and dig in with your little plastic shovels, you know?

Besides, you haven't seen me write narrative. Oh god is it ever horrible. I'm pretty much stuck with trying to write interesting expository.

[Aygar]

The human main character is a pipsqueak who's only important because his father sold his own people out to the Abh, and he's only on of the side of the Abh because he's got the hots for an Abh princess.

To be fair IIRC it was less father selling out, and more Abh responsibility dodging. The negotiations when something like this.

President of Planet: "We are here to negotiate our surrender"
Commander of Abh fleet: "You have anti-space weaponry, our law says that non-Abh can't have control anything that can interferer with Abh control of space. I don't want to be governor of your planet, so I am elevating you to Abh nobility (thus making the president of the planet a Abh in the eyes of Abh law) and making this planet your fiefdom. Thus resolving any problems with Abh law. This concludes our negotiations."

--Aygar

[Arioch]

If you surrender your people to a hostile power and you are rewarded by being made dictator for life and elevated to the enemy nobility, then that's called "selling out."

I don't mean to give the wrong impression -- the series is well worth watching if just for the space battles, which are quite interesting. (Heck, I watched all of Starship Operators for the space battles.) But the Abh are bat-shit-crazy tyrants and the attempts in the narrative to justify their actions are junk wonky. And as I pointed out, the main character is less than compelling.

[manticore7]

with the exeption of planet Martine I don't find ether of the two sides particulary sympathetic. I mean we have the obviously imperialistic Humankind Empire Ahb who's laws are Draconian and who punish dissent with burning away a planets atmosphere ( they say there is no malice behind it but thats a small comfort). on the other hand we have the United Mankind who's "Citizen's Rule" reminds me of the Alliance from Firefly they seem to be be big on conformity and "proper" human behavior along with the stringent methods those beliefs entail. keep in mind I'm going by the Anime and the Manga.

[Arioch]

Yes, the portrayal of humanity as knuckle-dragging incompetents who can't govern themselves is one of the unsavory narrative strategies I was referring to that is used to justify the Abh conquests.

[Sprawl63]

Yes, the portrayal of humanity as knuckle-dragging incompetents who can't govern themselves is one of the unsavory narrative strategies I was referring to that is used to justify the Abh conquests.

I had always thought that the Aph motivation was to eliminate war by controlling the star lanes (at least from what I gathered in the anime). When the Aph first struck back and destroyed their creators, they were immediately disgusted at what they did and resolved to stop it from ever happening again. Of course, its definitely an ends-justify-the-means approach. However, they seem pretty open to accept normal humans into the aristocracy and let them remain autonomous on the ground as long as they accept that the Aph control the star lanes. And the alliance they are up against seem pretty adamant on committing genocide on the Aph themselves. As for as galaxy conqueror's go, they aren't so bad.

[icekatze]

hi hi

So they decide to eliminate war by waging the biggest war ever... Must be a calculus thing, cause to me that doesn't add up.

The implication that humanity is not, or will never be capable of self governance is one of those recurring themes that pops up in a lot of places these days, much to my dismay. But if the characters are compelling, I think you can get away with an awful lot in storytelling. Its a thread that grabbed my attention in Outsider because by default humanity is self governed, but is forced by external circumstance to potentially give that up for the sake of survival.

[Ktrain]

And the alliance they are up against seem pretty adamant on committing genocide on the Aph themselves. As for as galaxy conqueror's go, they aren't so bad.

It seems pretty natural that the rest of mankind wishes to exterminate out an overtly aggressive power which has committed planetside on numerous occasions, waged unprovoked wars time and time again and wishes to consolidate all political/economic authority into an aristocracy made up of only 30 million people (when mankind numbers in the trillions).

Yes, the portrayal of humanity as knuckle-dragging incompetents who can't govern themselves is one of the unsavory narrative strategies I was referring to that is used to justify the Abh conquests.

Sometimes I feel Crest of the Stars was a commentary on the Asian Co-prosperity Sphere and the double speak that was used to rationalize it, since it seems that it's told from an Ahb perspective.

[Arioch]

But if the characters are compelling, I think you can get away with an awful lot in storytelling.

I agree absolutely; it's all about the story and characters and whether it works. Crest of the Stars is really about Abriel (the Abh princess), and she's compelling enough to keep you interested. Unfortunately, the human character who is supposed to be the protagonist is not very compelling at all. But that's probably intentional... a lot of anime/manga properties have almost faceless teengage male protagonists, meant to serve as proxies for the teenage male viewers.

[Darth Cloaked Guy]

hi hi

So they decide to eliminate war by waging the biggest war ever... Must be a calculus thing, cause to me that doesn't add up.

The implication that humanity is not, or will never be capable of self governance is one of those recurring themes that pops up in a lot of places these days, much to my dismay. But if the characters are compelling, I think you can get away with an awful lot in storytelling. Its a thread that grabbed my attention in Outsider because by default humanity is self governed, but is forced by external circumstance to potentially give that up for the sake of survival.

If I might use Star Control II as a parallel...

SpoilerShow

The Ur-Quan were once a brown-skinned race of highly territorial apex predators that barely managed civilization, and did so through sheer force of will. When they reached the stars and joined the Sentient Milieu, they acted as lone scouts and eventually came across the world of the Dnyarri, a race of impossibly powerful psychic power and also impossibly potent pure evil, that then mentally enslaved the entire species. Using unimaginable pain, they were able to overthrow their psychic captors and escape slavery.

To ensure they'd never be enslaved again, the two Ur-Quan subraces, the Kzer-Za and the Kohr-Ah, each followed their path-- conquering the galaxy so as to never be enslaved again. The Kzer-Za principle was a simple one: Conquer everyone. Willing species would become battle thralls and join the Kzer-Za war machine. Unwilling species would be trapped on their homeworlds beneath nigh-impenetrable force fields.

Kohr-Ah principle was even simpler: Eradicate all intelligent life in the galaxy besides Ur-Quan.

Both fought to ensure that when they were finished, they'd never need to wage war again.

[Karst45]

Yes, the portrayal of humanity as knuckle-dragging incompetents who can't govern themselves is one of the unsavory narrative strategies I was referring to that is used to justify the Abh conquests.

Take note that often Japanese anim are a reflection of how they see other "power" compared to their own.