The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

User avatar
White
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:26 am

The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by White »

Ok, so there seems to be a war going on at the moment and, naturally, everyone's attention probably diverts to the Loroi or Umaik when they read the title.

Others yet might think about the historians or other major players.

Well, such short term considerations aren't the purpose of this thread. I created this to find out who, among all the listed races, has the greatest potential for growth.

Right away we can discount the Deliras and Morat, and with them the idea that any current level of technological superiority is guarantee of perpetual dominance.

That earlier statement also puts the Historians into shakey waters, but really not enough is known about them, so I'll be ignoring them for the duration of this post.

The Umaik and Loroi spring to mind next, but I'll be discounting their long term viability because neither of them is particularly innovative.

So, which species has the political system and innovative history which sets them up for future glory?

The Mannadi Pipolsid.

They've somehow got a direct democracy working, which is probably the pinnacle political system that even humans are struggling to reach.

They're known for being good engineers, which, considering the heavy metal nature of warfare, should make up for their lack of physical stature.

They can transmit memories intergenerationally, hampering the slow teaching phase of their young.

Better than that, they seem to be the most widespread among the races. They apparently live across a variety of planets, even some of the Loroi home worlds, their aquatic nature allowing them to spread across planets without having to compete with the locals.

The only major strike against them is their susceptibility to mind reading, but what does it matter if someone can read your mind when you've got a gun the size of a planet pressed against their nose?

Also, as a side note, if the the Soia themselves were based on Soia Leon genetics, the only known viable candidates left are the Neridi.

On another note, one which I don't feel deserves it's own topic, if the pol indeed are Soia version of earth whales, there's a good chance they'e got telepathic powers as well.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?
Last edited by White on Tue May 28, 2019 2:36 am, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Arioch »

...perhaps you mean the Pipolsid? The Mannadi were the civilization that fought the Loroi for hundreds of years and got mostly wiped out.

Image Image

User avatar
White
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:26 am

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by White »

Arioch wrote:...perhaps you mean the Pipolsid? The Mannadi were the civilization that fought the Loroi for hundreds of years and got mostly wiped out.
Edited!

Thanks for the correction, alien names seem to be my weakness.

boldilocks
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:27 pm

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by boldilocks »

White wrote:They've somehow got a direct democracy working, which is probably the pinnacle political system that even humans are struggling to reach.
Democracy is actually a pretty terrible as a system, direct or otherwise, especially if you're running a space empire.

entity2636
Posts: 339
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:53 am

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by entity2636 »

When the Loroi and Umiak bomb each other and their respective allies back to the stone age, I think it will be the Nissek who will become the dominant power in the Local Bubble.

They appear to have a strong economy, enough territory, quite powerful navy and are at present not directly involved in the war.

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by GeoModder »

boldilocks wrote:
White wrote:They've somehow got a direct democracy working, which is probably the pinnacle political system that even humans are struggling to reach.
Democracy is actually a pretty terrible as a system, direct or otherwise, especially if you're running a space empire.
The empire part merely depends on how instantly communications work.
And at the very least its potentially the least oppressive. :p
Image

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Arioch »

GeoModder wrote:And at the very least its potentially the least oppressive.
Direct democracy (better known as "mob rule") is one of the least stable and most oppressive forms of government available, at least, whenever it was practiced by humans. The classical Athenians were total jerks, constantly declaring war on their neighbors and executing their own citizens when they became unpopular. Ironically, the oligarchic, militaristic Spartans often looked reasonable and even-handed by comparison.

The Pipolsid can make it work a little bit better because their chemical communication makes them more empathic, and they rarely resort to violence. But they still suffer from the basic problems of direct democracy: there's no way that the whole population can be expert enough in every subject to be able to make an informed decision on every issue, the need to put everything to a vote can result in costly delays, and there is a lot of policy flip-flopping as the mood of the populace continually changes.

User avatar
Werra
Posts: 840
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:27 pm

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Werra »

Arioch wrote:The classical Athenians were total jerks, constantly declaring war on their neighbors and executing their own citizens when they became unpopular. Ironically, the oligarchic, militaristic Spartans often looked reasonable and even-handed by comparison.
The Spartans weren't big on writing either, so most of the sources we have on them are from their enemies, such as Athens.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by dragoongfa »

In highschool I once joked in history class that if the Athenians weren't democratic then they would have become 'Rome' 200 years ahead of the Romans.

Remember kids, Ancient Greeks left behind both lessons and warnings, the problem is that they didn't elaborate which is which.

User avatar
icekatze
Posts: 1399
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Middle of Nowhere
Contact:

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Living in a failing democracy can be pretty rough, but I'm convinced the principle is better than most alternatives, even if we're botching the execution.

I don't think you can expect everyday people to make informed decisions when relevant information is classified, denied, and hidden. It seems like circular logic to set someone up to fail, then use that failure as justification for the setup. At the very least, a government would do well to have someone who is in a position to say, "Hey, maybe a land war in Russia during the winter isn't such a great idea."

It is, perhaps, important to remember when considering the stability of governments, that emperors rarely died of old age. :P

User avatar
Werra
Posts: 840
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:27 pm

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Werra »

I wonder what would be more stable and succesful, a democracy in which high technology is used to assist the voting process or monarchy in which somebody lile Friedrich the Great or Kathrine the same can live indefinitely due to technology.

User avatar
Onaiom
Posts: 124
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:06 am

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Onaiom »

Werra wrote:I wonder what would be more stable and succesful, a democracy in which high technology is used to assist the voting process or monarchy in which somebody lile Friedrich the Great or Kathrine the same can live indefinitely due to technology.
Plot of one of my favorite anime...

Image

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4486
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Arioch »

icekatze wrote:Living in a failing democracy can be pretty rough, but I'm convinced the principle is better than most alternatives, even if we're botching the execution.

I don't think you can expect everyday people to make informed decisions when relevant information is classified, denied, and hidden. It seems like circular logic to set someone up to fail, then use that failure as justification for the setup. At the very least, a government would do well to have someone who is in a position to say, "Hey, maybe a land war in Russia during the winter isn't such a great idea."

It is, perhaps, important to remember when considering the stability of governments, that emperors rarely died of old age.
To clarify, my comments above refer specifically to "direct democracy", in which all important decisions are put to a popular vote. I think a constitutional republic is a much better form of government, where the rule of law tales precedence over the whims of the mob, and while ultimate authority still resides with the people, they elect representatives who can devote their full time and attention to specialize in doing the work of the government. Like all forms of government, representative democracy has its own shortcomings; the political class can become corrupt, and the adversarial party system can lead to unnecessary internal division... but as far as I can tell, it is superior to every other system that has been tried.

The problem with average people making everyday government decisions is not due to government secrecy; it's due to the fact that professional people are busy living their lives, and most don't have the spare time, interest, or intellectual bandwidth to be qualified to make informed decisions about every issue. I consider myself a very smart and well-informed person, but I don't keep up with local politics well enough to have an informed opinion about what's going on in local government, much less expertise in watershed management or civil engineering or whatever specialized knowledge is required to make informed decisions on the subject at hand. Representative democracy allows the people to retain ultimate power without requiring the entire populace to become professional politicians. Personally, there are things I would rather do.

My home state of California is conducting its own experiments with direct democracy (through our ballot proposition system), and from my point of view it has been an almost complete disaster. For example, California voters are required to approve any new taxes; you would think that this would mean low taxes, right? Wrong; California has the highest taxes in the union. The need to submit every matter of importance to a popular vote makes the elected legislature essentially impotent, meaning that very little gets done and what does get done costs far more than it should. Those highest taxes from the biggest economy in the nation pay for some of the worst public services in the nation. California voters can change the state constitution and recall judges whose decisions they don't like; if those aren't a twin recipe for anarchy, I don't know what is. Like classical Athens, I think California's success and affluence has been in spite of our loony form of government, and not because of it. It's likely only the state's subordination to the US Federal government that has prevented the nutjobs here from declaring war on Texas and Alabama every other Tuesday.

User avatar
GeoModder
Posts: 1038
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:31 pm

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by GeoModder »

Arioch wrote:
icekatze wrote:My home state of California is conducting its own experiments with direct democracy (through our ballot proposition system), and from my point of view it has been an almost complete disaster. For example, California voters are required to approve any new taxes; you would think that this would mean low taxes, right? Wrong; California has the highest taxes in the union. The need to submit every matter of importance to a popular vote makes the elected legislature essentially impotent, meaning that very little gets done and what does get done costs far more than it should. Those highest taxes from the biggest economy in the nation pay for some of the worst public services in the nation. California voters can change the state constitution and recall judges whose decisions they don't like; if those aren't a twin recipe for anarchy, I don't know what is. Like classical Athens, I think California's success and affluence has been in spite of our loony form of government, and not because of it. It's likely only the state's subordination to the US Federal government that has prevented the nutjobs here from declaring war on Texas and Alabama every other Tuesday.
You make it sound like most Californians are in your opinion nutjobs, if had their way war declarations would be the result? ;)
Image

User avatar
Zorg56
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:59 am

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Zorg56 »

Dictatorship of the proletariat is the only form of goverment that makes any sense, atleast in Russia.

User avatar
Mr.Tucker
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:45 pm

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Ooooh, this thread can go bad in so many ways... Luckily people here are civilised for the most part :) .
Arioch, I see your California, and raise you Switzerland (though, even by Swiss standards, Cali seems nuts. The power to recall judges? I might be mistaken, but Ted Bundy was considered a decent member of society by everyone around him...)
I would also like to add that historically, mob rule was bad because mobs tended to be driven by baser instinct (since that was the common denominator amongs large groups of people). One you advance on the tech level, you tend to go up on Marslow's Pyramid, and can afford to think about more than bread and games. Stuff like anti-aging and advanced medical care, broad access to water and food, and more free time to specialise in stuff that you like, rather than need (I'm an aerospace engineer, but I've also gotten a degree as an arborist, and am thinking about getting some work done on psychology. And I learned IT on the job, from extracurriculum courses and specialisation courses). An advanced society can also make decision much quicker by implementing electronic methods (though there's quite some work to do on securing those networks).
My perception might be skewered because I live in a country desperately fighting against corruption (and has scored two major recent victories just these past three days, though popular collective action).

User avatar
White
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:26 am

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by White »

Arioch wrote:The Pipolsid can make it work a little bit better because their chemical communication makes them more empathic, and they rarely resort to violence. But they still suffer from the basic problems of direct democracy: there's no way that the whole population can be expert enough in every subject to be able to make an informed decision on every issue, the need to put everything to a vote can result in costly delays, and there is a lot of policy flip-flopping as the mood of the populace continually changes.
Oh, that brings the Pipolsid down several notches down in my eyes, then. To clarify, I wasn't promoting Direct Democracy as the ultimate form of government, although I now see I may have actually used those words! I just thought that the pipolsid had mastered politics and leveraged their biology to an extent that they were like a super efficient hive mind of sorts, even though they had free will, hence my use of the words "somehow managed to get direct democracy to work." Meaning, that they'd managed to get the theoretical efficiency of the proposed system by overcoming the practical hurdles, in the same sort of way that a hive mind would make communism work.

In either case, I still think their ingenuity gives them an edge. Although, I think, if possible, it would be helpful to know how ingenous they are.

For example, compared to a human rate of progress, how fast were they going historically? Did their aquatic environment help or hinder them, and what was the effect of Soia Leon artifacts on their development, those kinds of things.

I'm not sure how much faster or slower development got after the formation of the Loroi union, and how much of that can be attributed to an advance in the difficulty of advancement.

Also, Arioch, do you know the populations of the races in the local bubble? I'd expect the smaller creatures to have higher populations, but then that might just be a fallacy.

Also, how deep do the Pipolsid live? Their apperance seems to be based off deep underwater jellyfish. If so, it makes me wonder how difficult a seige of a Pipolsid city would be.

My sense is that anything several miles under an ocean is essentially nuke proof if they can maintain even local defences. And I doubt any race in the bubble has better underwater craft than the pipolsid. On the other hand, I'm not sure how powerful and effective anti matter would be. I remember reading that Turning on the engines of a warship inside an atmosphere would devestate the ecology, but I'm not sure what that means.

Would it mean that the ship could just fly by in the upper atmosphere and an extinction level event happens, or would it have to swim down to within several miles of a deep underwater Pipolsid city, exposing itself to enemy fire all the while?

Of course, this is a moot point if the pipolsid can survive only in shallow water. I can see that they have eyes, but their transparency and use of biolumencence makes it about even for me as to what level of the ocean they live in.

Also, for how long do Pipolsid live? And the rest of the union races?

boldilocks
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:27 pm

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by boldilocks »

icekatze wrote:Living in a failing democracy can be pretty rough, but I'm convinced the principle is better than most alternatives, even if we're botching the execution.
"The form of government I advocate for is the best one when it's executed 'properly'" is a line of argument that vindicates every single form of government.
At the very least, a government would do well to have someone who is in a position to say, "Hey, maybe a land war in Russia during the winter isn't such a great idea."
Unfortunately the two examples we have of failed land wars with russia during winter weren't actually started during the winter and were both planned with a the best forecasts available being that of a rather mild winter. The only one who had any real choice of the war was napoleon as far as I can recall. The germans were stuck with either striking first while russian troops were in disarray from lack of competent leadership or wait for the soviet union to complete its buildup of forces on the border and fight a defensive war against an actually organized enemy(And hope that the japanese could mess up the soviet backlines).

boldilocks
Posts: 669
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:27 pm

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by boldilocks »

Mr.Tucker wrote:Arioch, I see your California, and raise you Switzerland (though, even by Swiss standards, Cali seems nuts. The power to recall judges? I might be mistaken, but Ted Bundy was considered a decent member of society by everyone around him...).
The swiss work it out by being extremely ethnically homogenous and having a conservative culture, and having most decisions made locally.

User avatar
Mr.Tucker
Posts: 303
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 4:45 pm

Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Mr.Tucker »

boldilocks wrote:
Mr.Tucker wrote:Arioch, I see your California, and raise you Switzerland (though, even by Swiss standards, Cali seems nuts. The power to recall judges? I might be mistaken, but Ted Bundy was considered a decent member of society by everyone around him...).
The swiss work it out by being extremely ethnically homogenous and having a conservative culture, and having most decisions made locally.
Ethnically homogenous? There's not even a Swiss people. They speak German, French, Italian and Romansch.

Most decisions being made locally doesn't seem bad either, in most cases. While I'm an Eastern European and tend towards unity, most countries are nowhere near as homogenous as mine. In that case, especially where there are historically large numbers of small polities (thus a tradition of local sovereignty), it makes sense to delegate power onto local authorities. Not to mention that by making the populace more discrete, you increase ethnic homogeneity within any given territory.
Also, with the increase in urbanisation and technology, cities are once again gaining ever more power and influence. It's regionalisation centered around urban areas, and it's the trend of our current society and tech level. Can't fight it, so work with it.

Post Reply