The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

[boldilocks]

Ethnically homogenous? There's not even a Swiss people. They speak German, French, Italian and Romansch.

Would you prefer racially homogenous? They are a people of a common genetic ancestry of a relatively small people in a limited geographical area. And I can assure you there is a swiss people.

Most decisions being made locally doesn't seem bad either, in most cases.

It tends to be more flexible, but is also prone to corruption, even in societies of high trust.

While I'm an Eastern European and tend towards unity, most countries are nowhere near as homogenous as mine. In that case, especially where there are historically large numbers of small polities (thus a tradition of local sovereignty), it makes sense to delegate power onto local authorities. Not to mention that by making the populace more discrete, you increase ethnic homogeneity within any given territory. Also, with the increase in urbanisation and technology, cities are once again gaining ever more power and influence. It's regionalisation centered around urban areas, and it's the trend of our current society and tech level.

Carving california up into ethnically discrete blocks would probably improve conditions a great deal, especially if you could ensure a complete disconnect between rural and city politics. (Ie, ensured that one couldn't affect the others, with water rights belonging to the closest polity to the source of water, effectively giving rural areas control over the water supplies.)

Can't fight it, so work with it.

Oh I don't agree with that at all. American cities have grown increasingly bold in their arrogance, and I've noted the same problem locally in my own country.

[Werra]

There's not even a Swiss people. They speak German, French, Italian and Romansch.

If there wasn't a Swiss people, the country would divide itself between Germany, France, Italy and Austria. Something seems to bind the Bergsepps, even if its only stubborn refusal to be anything else.

The swiss work it out by being extremely ethnically homogenous and having a conservative culture, and having most decisions made locally.

They're forced to. Switzerland is surrounded by more powerful nations on all sides and their own country is split by geography. That makes expansion impossible and keeps the constituency small and homogenous, thus engaged, which makes the democratic system stable. The Swiss model would never work in Germany for example, because Germanies geography forces it to expand.
Well, maybe new technologies can alleviate the downsides of Democracy, but I see no reason why they couldn't do the same for despotism or monarchy.

[nweismuller]

The Union race I'm actually interested in learning more about is the Neridi, as well as being curious to learn a little more about their constitutional monarchy.

[Arioch]

I just thought that the pipolsid had mastered politics and leveraged their biology to an extent that they were like a super efficient hive mind of sorts, even though they had free will, hence my use of the words "somehow managed to get direct democracy to work." Meaning, that they'd managed to get the theoretical efficiency of the proposed system by overcoming the practical hurdles, in the same sort of way that a hive mind would make communism work.

I suppose it depends on your definitions, but I'm not sure it's possible to have individual free will within a "hive mind."

For example, compared to a human rate of progress, how fast were they going historically? Did their aquatic environment help or hinder them, and what was the effect of Soia Leon artifacts on their development, those kinds of things.

I'm not sure how much faster or slower development got after the formation of the Loroi union, and how much of that can be attributed to an advance in the difficulty of advancement.

The Pipolsid evolved to be able to fabricate sophisticated structures from chemical compounds secreted by their own bodies, which were necessary to protect their fragile bodies from predators. Their primitive ancestors initially used these "bubble cities" like bee hives, as storage and processing facilities for gathered foodstuffs, but they quickly worked out how to build structures that would foster the growth of algae- and fungus- like organisms, and so the Pipolsid emerged into sentience with a ready-made civilization complete with farming, city-building, and a complex society, completely skipping the lengthy tribal hunter-gathered mode that most species go through. However, since they were underwater and without easy access to fire or most forms of artificial metallurgy, most Pipolsid technology hit a roadblack at the pre-industrial level, and stayed there for a very long time.

In the archaeological record on Lenzano (the Pipolsid homeworld), remnants of a TL12 Pipolsid civilization suddenly appear at the beginning of the Soia era, so it seems fairly certainly that someone engaged in some uplift activity with the Pipolsid. This ultra-tech civilization was destroyed at the end of that era, as was the case across the Local Bubble, but the Pipolsid recovered their own "native" civilization much more quickly than other contemporaries because of their ability to rely on their own biological building materials, their ability to pass down memories across generations without external technology, and because of their cooperative and empathic nature that allowed them to avoid the kind of barbarism that ultimately consumed the early post-fall Loroi and Barsam civilizations. The Soia-era ruins on Lenzano helped the Pipolsid to eventually recover high technology, but this was a slow road. So the long-winded upshot of all that is that the Pipolsid are not especially rapid in terms of technological development.

They are also not at all warlike. When threatened by the Delrias or Mannadi, in the absence of Loroi protection, they simply gave in to whatever external demands were made on them.

Also, Arioch, do you know the populations of the races in the local bubble? I'd expect the smaller creatures to have higher populations, but then that might just be a fallacy.

I don't have many specific numbers for total populations. But in a high-tech society, I'm not sure that physical size would have much correlation with population sizes.

Also, how deep do the Pipolsid live? Their apperance seems to be based off deep underwater jellyfish. If so, it makes me wonder how difficult a seige of a Pipolsid city would be.

My sense is that anything several miles under an ocean is essentially nuke proof if they can maintain even local defences. And I doubt any race in the bubble has better underwater craft than the pipolsid. On the other hand, I'm not sure how powerful and effective anti matter would be. I remember reading that Turning on the engines of a warship inside an atmosphere would devestate the ecology, but I'm not sure what that means.
Would it mean that the ship could just fly by in the upper atmosphere and an extinction level event happens, or would it have to swim down to within several miles of a deep underwater Pipolsid city, exposing itself to enemy fire all the while?

Of course, this is a moot point if the pipolsid can survive only in shallow water. I can see that they have eyes, but their transparency and use of biolumencence makes it about even for me as to what level of the ocean they live in.

The Pipolsid structures (especially with high technology) allow them to live at almost any depth. Their flexible bodies can withstand variable pressures without much problem. However, they rarely live in the very deep ocean, as there's not much there to eat.

Being underwater will definitely give you some resistance to airbursts or attacks against ground targets, but whoever attacked Lenzano knew who their targets were, and adjusted their methods accordingly. I don't know that much about hydrodynamics, but I can infer from how depth charges work that the shock waves from sub-surface detonations can be very damaging. Still, it can be hard to find targets in deep water, and Lenzano has better than average survival of relics from that era.

Also, for how long do Pipolsid live? And the rest of the union races?

I don't have that worked out for most of the races, but I think given their biology and lifestyle, it makes sense for Pipolsid individuals to be fairly long-lived.

The Union race I'm actually interested in learning more about is the Neridi, as well as being curious to learn a little more about their constitutional monarchy.

I have an essay on the Neridi in the works, but that will take some more time to finish.

[White]

They are also not at all warlike. When threatened by the Delrias or Mannadi, in the absence of Loroi protection, they simply gave in to whatever external demands were made on them.

Was this pacifism a situational phenomenon or is it something they adhere to to great extents.

What I mean is, did they concede because the demands, from their point of view, were less costly than a war, or are they just ultimate pacifists that would stand by for their own genocide Pamelite (animorph pacifist aliens which did exactly that) style?

Also, as to the case of Pipolsid tech development, it does sound slow, but that slowness seems to be caused more by their aquatic environment than a lack of ingenuity. Would you say they've sped up since they can now work on land with high technology? Or perhaps are they just not good at land based tech, much like many of the other races would still not have great underwater manufacturing capabilities?

Being underwater will definitely give you some resistance to airbursts or attacks against ground targets, but whoever attacked Lenzano knew who their targets were, and adjusted their methods accordingly. I don't know that much about hydrodynamics, but I can infer from how depth charges work that the shock waves from sub-surface detonations can be very damaging. Still, it can be hard to find targets in deep water, and Lenzano has better than average survival of relics from that era.

That must be a comforting thought to the local bubble races. Imagine if modern society still thought the sea people might be lurking around, and the sea people were historically known for defeating societies more advanced than ours.

But, more on topic, I was actually just wondering more about how well they would stand against the tech level of the Loroi and Umaik around the time of the story.

I'm not an expert on hydrodynamics either, but from what I've read on the topic, which, admittedly, isn't much, there seems to be a qualitative difference between deep underwater explosions and those happening in relatively shallow water.

If I had to guess, and this is my own theorizing at this point, since a shockwave, I think, is essentially a really large amplitude of a sound wave, one which leaves behind a vaccum because the atmospheric density isn't high enough to maintain a sound wave against such a pressure, than explosions underwater should be devastating, but limited in effect. You wouldn't get a miles wide blast zone like you get in the atmosphere, just a compact explosive area beyond which you'd just be left with really loud sound waves.

If anyone knows about this topic, just let me know if I'm wrong.

Actually, I think I'll just create a new topic for this idea.

Also, I'm still wondering about how devastating anti matter engines would be to an ecology if activated in atmosphere, since I'm not sure what the magnitude of the ecological disaster they pose is.

[Arioch]

They are also not at all warlike. When threatened by the Delrias or Mannadi, in the absence of Loroi protection, they simply gave in to whatever external demands were made on them.

Was this pacifism a situational phenomenon or is it something they adhere to to great extents.

What I mean is, did they concede because the demands, from their point of view, were less costly than a war, or are they just ultimate pacifists that would stand by for their own genocide Pamelite (animorph pacifist aliens which did exactly that) style?

They're not pacifists in the sense that they refuse to fight under any circumstances, but they have very little interest in fighting. They lack physical strength and have fragile bodies; their natural response to danger is to flee and find shelter. Violence is almost unknown between Pipolsid individuals; it simply would not occur to them. They gave in to aggressors' demands early in their history because they had no military to speak of, and since the Loroi have taken out all these threats, the Pipolsid were only too happy to go back to not having to think about it. If they were suddenly and inexplicably attacked, and there were no friendly forces at hand to defend them, they would most likely surrender at the first sign of hostilities.

Also, as to the case of Pipolsid tech development, it does sound slow, but that slowness seems to be caused more by their aquatic environment than a lack of ingenuity. Would you say they've sped up since they can now work on land with high technology? Or perhaps are they just not good at land based tech, much like many of the other races would still not have great underwater manufacturing capabilities?

The Pipolsid are very good at what interests them. Their drive tech is second to none in the Union. However, they have no interest in weapons tech. Whether they are fast or slow in technological advancement depends on who you compare them to and what subjects you have in mind. If you're expecting them to race ahead of the rest of the Union and become a danger to other races in the Local Bubble, I don't think that's going to happen.

[Mr.Tucker]

Would you prefer racially homogenous? They are a people of a common genetic ancestry of a relatively small people in a limited geographical area. And I can assure you there is a swiss people.

I think we need a definition of the word "ethnicity" and "people".
An ethnicity is a bunch of persons with a common race and language. A people or "nation" is an ethnicity that shares a common culture. Europeans divide along language (ethnic) lines rather than racial lines (which is more common in the US). Asia is it's own, extremely complicated thing....

Carving california up into ethnically discrete blocks would probably improve conditions a great deal, especially if you could ensure a complete disconnect between rural and city politics. (Ie, ensured that one couldn't affect the others, with water rights belonging to the closest polity to the source of water, effectively giving rural areas control over the water supplies.)

I agree. The politics of it would be really complicated though....

If there wasn't a Swiss people, the country would divide itself between Germany, France, Italy and Austria. Something seems to bind the Bergsepps, even if its only stubborn refusal to be anything else.

Culture and history is what binds them. But that is not enough to make a "people". What it does make is a nationality.

The Swiss model would never work in Germany for example, because Germanies geography forces it to expand.

How so?

Oh I don't agree with that at all. American cities have grown increasingly bold in their arrogance, and I've noted the same problem locally in my own country.

It's where we are in the tech tree. It's a cycle. Look at history: the first cities sprung up in the wake of the Chalcolithic, in the various cradles of civilization (India, Mesopotamia, etc) and developed into hydraulic states that build the first kingdoms on the backs of bronze and chariots. They ruled the world for nearly 3000 years, before collapsing in the Bronze Age Collapse, due to the popularization of iron tools and weaponry (which is far more readily available), leading to a 1000 year period where they became insignificant and rural lives were prevalent. Then the Classical ancient city-states rose up and once again power was vested in the cities, who now had the ability to build empires due to advancement in technology. These city states once again collaped as the introduction of steel and horsemanship lead to them becoming prime targets. They stayed down for the rest of most modern history, before once again being on the upswing today. It's a pattern that gets reproduced anywhere there is technological advancement (though with different flavors; the Americas never really progressed beyond the Neolithic, but rather developed that specific strain of technology to a high level).
Modern technology and economics relies, above all else, on human capital, and cities, by their very nature offer that in spades. Technology has advanced to the point where they can also be self-sufficient (large scale desalination, solar, wind and nuclear, vertical farming, in-vitro meat, and other such technologies; cities are affluent enough to build those) to a larger extent. Human are gregarious, and modern communications and transport have made them even more-so. It's where our path takes us (and it'll be even more prevalent in space; rural communities are impossible in space per se). We can protest, but that didn't help Rome or the Chinese Principalities, did it?...
The upshot is that urban centered periods tended to be quite good development periods (some rural centered ones were as well, but to a lesser extent).

[Mr.Tucker]

And to not wear too much from the topic at hand: power is vey relative, just like in real life. The Swiss, for instance, are terribly difficult to invade, but you can't say they are more "powerful" than say Russia or France.
So it's a matter of:
1) power projection
2) technology
3) numbers
Power projection is pretty much a prerequisite of any starfaring civilization, though some might find it easier than others. Overall I'd say the most powerful are the Umiak. They have numbers for days, massive industrial capacity and willingness for hardships, and very advanced technologies in most fields (more than the Loroi; they were using plasma from the get-go).They could mop the floor with basically anyone except maybe the Historians (depending on what they can REALLY do if bothered).
The caveat is that the Loroi cheat: they ability for superluminal detection, TK and telepathy is impossible to reproduce by technology (maybe you can with telepathy, but radio is just a poor substitute) or to counter by technology. That's why they're still in the game. It they didn't have the above, they'd probably be where the Mannadi are (and, conversely, they struggle quite bit when their opponents have less susceptibility to their mental abilities).

[Mr.Tucker]

The Pipolsid evolved to be able to fabricate sophisticated structures from chemical compounds secreted by their own bodies, which were necessary to protect their fragile bodies from predators.

Wait...are the Pipolsid shelled, and use natural adhesives to form protective layers? Or are they slimy like hagfish?

[boldilocks]

I think we need a definition of the word "ethnicity" and "people".
An ethnicity is a bunch of persons with a common race and language. A people or "nation" is an ethnicity that shares a common culture. Europeans divide along language (ethnic) lines rather than racial lines (which is more common in the US).

It's actually been very much along a sort of pseudo-racial line as well. If you look at a wide enough variety of gene markers you can group European genetic groups by country with a very high degree of accuracy. And of course with increased immigration the more obvious racial lines are becoming increasingly stark with each generation.

I agree. The politics of it would be really complicated though....

True, it would be akin to multiple secessions happening at once at the state level.

[boldilocks]

The Pipolsid evolved to be able to fabricate sophisticated structures from chemical compounds secreted by their own bodies, which were necessary to protect their fragile bodies from predators.

Wait...are the Pipolsid shelled, and use natural adhesives to form protective layers? Or are they slimy like hagfish?

They're half-shelled heroes, as chapter 3 is going to expand upon, when we meet a team of teenage Pipolsids who've just been through a horrific industrial accident.

[Werra]

Culture and history is what binds them. But that is not enough to make a "people". What it does make is a nationality.

The separation between culture and people is faulty, since genes make their own environment. There have been Swiss people before Switzerland was a thing. Just because European ancestries are so closely related they're blurry does not erase the individual ancestry.

The Swiss model would never work in Germany for example, because Germanies geography forces it to expand.

How so?

Germany is on the central european plain and has France to the west and Poland to the east. There are very little geographical barriers between these nations. So it's in Germanys natural interest to be stronger than each of them individually. This oftentimes translates into domination of surrounding countries. If Germany were still running a population surplus, it would be exporting it's people into the EU. A natural expansion of Germany -as understood as where German is spoken- thus inevitable.

It's where we are in the tech tree. It's a cycle. Look at history: the first cities sprung up in the wake of the Chalcolithic, in the various cradles of civilization (India, Mesopotamia, etc) and developed into hydraulic states that build the first kingdoms on the backs of bronze and chariots. They ruled the world for nearly 3000 years, before collapsing in the Bronze Age Collapse, due to the popularization of iron tools and weaponry (which is far more readily available), leading to a 1000 year period where they became insignificant and rural lives were prevalent. Then the Classical ancient city-states rose up and once again power was vested in the cities, who now had the ability to build empires due to advancement in technology. These city states once again collaped as the introduction of steel and horsemanship lead to them becoming prime targets. They stayed down for the rest of most modern history, before once again being on the upswing today. It's a pattern that gets reproduced anywhere there is technological advancement (though with different flavors; the Americas never really progressed beyond the Neolithic, but rather developed that specific strain of technology to a high level).

You should read "Against the Grain" by James Scott. History only looks that way because nomadic people had no need to keep records, thus once an agrarian state fell, it left a dark age, which oftentimes was a prosperous age for the people.

[GeoModder]

The Pipolsid evolved to be able to fabricate sophisticated structures from chemical compounds secreted by their own bodies, which were necessary to protect their fragile bodies from predators.

Wait...are the Pipolsid shelled, and use natural adhesives to form protective layers? Or are they slimy like hagfish?

I think Arioch meant domestic shelters (artifical cave/reef structure) rather then a sort of protective layer over the Pipolsid' natural body.

The Union race I'm actually interested in learning more about is the Neridi, as well as being curious to learn a little more about their constitutional monarchy.

I have an essay on the Neridi in the works, but that will take some more time to finish.

[Arioch]

The Pipolsid evolved to be able to fabricate sophisticated structures from chemical compounds secreted by their own bodies, which were necessary to protect their fragile bodies from predators.

Wait...are the Pipolsid shelled, and use natural adhesives to form protective layers? Or are they slimy like hagfish?

They're soft-bodied. The structures they form are external to their bodies, like wasps' nests.

[SVlad]

I wonder what would be more stable and succesful, a democracy in which high technology is used to assist the voting process or monarchy in which somebody lile Friedrich the Great or Kathrine the same can live indefinitely due to technology.

Here is the list of countries, where the same president rules for decades. Do you see many advanced economies there?

[Zorg56]

I wonder what would be more stable and succesful, a democracy in which high technology is used to assist the voting process or monarchy in which somebody lile Friedrich the Great or Kathrine the same can live indefinitely due to technology.

Here is the list of countries, where the same president rules for decades. Do you see many advanced economies there?

there is quite a few, including germany, finland and israel.

[Werra]

I wonder what would be more stable and succesful, a democracy in which high technology is used to assist the voting process or monarchy in which somebody lile Friedrich the Great or Kathrine the same can live indefinitely due to technology.

Here is the list of countries, where the same president rules for decades. Do you see many advanced economies there?

As far as I know Russia did very well under Putin. Just imagine him continuing for three more centuries. Or some heavy hitter from history like Temudschin.

[boldilocks]

I wonder what would be more stable and succesful, a democracy in which high technology is used to assist the voting process or monarchy in which somebody lile Friedrich the Great or Kathrine the same can live indefinitely due to technology.

Here is the list of countries, where the same president rules for decades. Do you see many advanced economies there?

As far as I know Russia did very well under Putin. Just imagine him continuing for three more centuries. Or some heavy hitter from history like Temudschin.

The entrenched corrupt powers that were holdovers of the bolshevik party leadership still exist, and as I'm aware of he hasn't been fully able to contend with them, but then I don't think anyone (or any form of government) could.
Iran is actually also doing pretty well, when you consider the powers they're up against. (Ie, effectively being blockaded by the western nations.)
Also Syria has been comparatively well off under Assad, until the recent ISIS insurrection. Of course, those were also externally imposed on the country by the western nations.

[SVlad]

As far as I know Russia did very well under Putin. Just imagine him continuing for three more centuries. Or some heavy hitter from history like Temudschin.

Doesn't look so good from inside. And it's much more about oil cost than about Putin.

SpoilerShow

"Oil cost - GDP correlation"

Then again, we have around 10 of 48 countries where long rule was good. And in other 38 - was not.

[Arioch]

That's the best graph ever.