How humanity can affect the war, by turning the moon into a deathstar.

[boldilocks]

Hum has no one considered Loroi fleets controlled by human 99% crew:

It would require, crew training, systems in english and base10 and few loroi in specific fields like engineering with a human crew to support and repairs besides replacing complete modules (armor plates, ammo and fuel) would need a return to Loroi space. Its alot but compared to getting up to the same tech level. Specially considering training personel seems the actual limit and not the industrial capacity.

Humans are likely less fit for prolonged stays in space compared to the loroi, and probably most other species as well. Also, I doubt a warrior culture is going to accept taking on foreign mercenaries to fight on their behalf, especially some galactic newcomer primitives.

[Werra]

The one thing the Loroi have, is people. HIghly trained, very disciplined and genetically tailored to withstand jump sickness. Why would they need us to crew their fleets?

[Mk_C]

Why would they need us to crew their fleets?

Pink ape-boy is quite a view.

Other than that - well, there's no reason for pink bipeds to be inherently any worse at most specific starship duties than Loroi, other than functions they physiologically lack - like Farseeing, Listel archiving or Teidar muscle, otherwise what blue elf can do a pink ape can do rather just as well, unlike it is the case with less humanoid races of the Union. They talk with their mouths and take longer to train, but that's hardly a big issue with a continuous turnout - humans don't have to lift breeding restrictions and wait for a new wave of babies to reach adulthood, just the replacement capacity of human education institutions that they have to keep just for replacing natural turnout inherently has to be quite large, compared to what Loroi peacetime rate is. And properly trained humans can probably be even more disciplined than Loroi, as post-industrial human military culture tends to drift towards the idea of military service being a service of obedience and selflessness, while Loroi warriorhood is essentially a (dangerous and rocky) path of (collective-centered and yet still) ambition. And a different outlook on the conduct of warfare might prove useful for more tactical flexibility.

The political issues of using pinkies would face a number of barriers in the eyes of Loroi leadership, but the entire outlook is somewhat too racially-focused - there's little reason for humans to build their tribal loyalties entirely on race, while polities are not exactly racial. The Union is an interspecies entity in the end, and while an Aldean, or Martian, or hell even Terran human (and those have their own nations yet) shares the oxygen-transport metalloprotein with the TCA leadership, that's a small reason for said human to place more inherent loyalty in (explicitly not Aldean, Martian or Terran, as it's a supra-planetary entity) TCA leadership rather than a Union one. And that's as long as there are no humans born and raised on Deinar, or Maia. There's an issue of inherent distrust of aliens in Loroi culture, but as long as said aliens are useful that would primarily serve to make such integration slower and smaller in scale, but not impossible. After all - the largest threat to Greywind's rule so far have been her own Loroi comrades, and common blood has been a little deterrent for those who opposed her. And it's seems to be sort of a theme that the Union that emerges from the war will not be the same one that entered it - the reality of this conflict irrevocably changes a lot of things about Loroi and their culture, and we have reasons to suspect that encountering their ancient cousins and eventually trusting a particular specimen of those to play an unorthodox role in the war effort will add to those changes.

If humanity ever ends up as a member of the Union down the line, or at least associated with it - I think of possibility for something like Janissaries, or Roman Auxilia, or French Foreign Legion, or ANZAC, or Cossacks, a peculiar kind of auxiliary forces that might have a secondary or minor, but still useful role in the greater military machine of the Union, quite possibly existing right alongside a completely separate human-centered military of the TCA. Oh, or Varangian Guard! Greywind would certainly appreciate a (naturally all-male) cadre of agents with psi-invisibility, unbreakable lotai and loyalty ties personally to her, and not the Diadem, or a caste, or a clan. It would take decades or even centuries of interaction for such things to emerge, but why not?

And as you once highlighted yourself - pinkies and their lotai might eventually prove useful for entities other than the Union. I just still doubt that the current Hierarchy would be capable of pulling off that kind of integration, but the current Hierarchy has even smaller chances of emerging from the war unchanged by the experience, compared to the Union.

[Arioch]

If the Loroi needed extra crews and didn't mind training aliens to do the job, the Union has a number of different species that are already familiar to the Loroi and don't need to be transported ~300 light years through contested territory.

[spacewhale]

...the Union has a number of different species that are already familiar to the Loroi and don't need to be transported ~300 light years through contested territory.

I think, maybe, not all of them have nice hot hands.

[QuakeIV]

I mean the point of fuel was raised, would it be easier for humans to figure out how to make Loroi fuel? I forget the name, but the weird exotic matter stuff that is meant to be a substitute for antimatter? Its not obvious to me how far humans are from being able to make something like that, as compared to useful weapons.

If they could provide fuel then there might be a business case for staging Loroi fleets out of human space to flank the bugs, with humans providing some degree of supply to them. Munitions would still need to be trucked in so the utility would be relatively limited but even so...

[Mk_C]

If the Loroi needed extra crews and didn't mind training aliens to do the job, the Union has a number of different species that are already familiar to the Loroi and don't need to be transported ~300 light years through contested territory.

No veal - no deal.

[boldilocks]

How about boots? We can make boots. As long as you're fine with one size (too long for walking and too narrow for comfort), one color (military brown), and fitted to only one foot.

[Werra]

Pink ape-boy is quite a view.

Are they? The chance for having offspring is apparently as important to Loroi as the pleasure of having sex. Their culture is also one that expects its females to remain abstinent for long periods of time and sates emotional needs for companionship with telepathy. Since human males can at most offer only physical pleasure (at the date of p.186), Loroi women might be largely not interested in humans that way.
It's also worth to point out that Alexander is short, very young for his position, of a slim, limber build and of the human race with the most Loroi like facial features. In short, he resembles a Loroi male as closely as can be expected from a random guy. The majority of human males do (does?) not share these features with him.
Furthermore, the Loroi that decide these things do have easier access to males. The young cannon-fodder has little political power to demand an integration of human crew members. So why would Loroi admiralty decide to share their military secrets with humans?

What blue elf can do a pink ape can do rather just as well, unlike it is the case with less humanoid races of the Union.

The supply profile of a human is inherently higher than that of a Loroi. We simply need more calories. Loroi also train from early childhood and have a strong, martial culture that instills discipline. Such a cultural tradition is hard to establish and does give advantages over those only trained for their job.
The quirks of Loroi biology might also give other benefits. It's very likely that telepathy gives a Loroi crew has a higher skill ceiling it can achieve compared to a non telepathic crew.

And a different outlook on the conduct of warfare might prove useful for more tactical flexibility.

Humans don't have any experience in space warfare. A different perspective may prove useful, but is that likely given the circumstances?

[Mk_C]

How about boots? We can make boots.

Obligatory

SpoilerShow

Are they?

I did not start this war, but I will end it!

Their culture is...

...about to discover a magnificent amount of new and exciting things. Nothing will ever be the same again. Not without heating and insulation.

The majority of human males do (does?) not share these features with him.

We're not talking about exporting the majority of human males, though. Perhaps only a quantity of the premium cut.

Furthermore, the Loroi that decide these things do have easier access to males.

Those males are for procreating. Pinkies are for bullying.

Such a cultural tradition is hard to establish and does give advantages over those only trained for their job.

Loroi literally are only trained for their job - that training is merely more focused. Usually vastly so, it seems, with the caste separation of duties. While pinkies are versatile.

The supply profile of a human is inherently higher than that of a Loroi.

That's hardly an issue at that TL, Loroi-tier ships are carrying tapestries and ultra-wide immersion TVs basically for posterity. Extra chowder would be a marginal burden compared to fuel, propellant and armament, as supposedly at least somewhat similar-TL human ships will be a thing by the time of Project Forward.

The young cannon-fodder has little political power to demand an integration of human crew members.

Panem, circenses et pueros! And in any case - I never said anything about crew integration. At least, not in this thread and not unironically. What I imagined here are mostly human-crewed and human-manufactured auxiliary forces (monitored by Mizol commissarsenvoys, ofc) existing as a specialized, perhaps minor part of the Union military. Possibly TCA fleet itself becoming such a branch, or being a completely separate entity. An important point to remember is that space politics are layered and complex. Humans as individuals and a species are one thing, human nations and communities are a wholly different thing, and the Solar human interplanetary polity that is TCA is yet another one. There can eventually be humans that have nothing to do with TCA, there can someday be TCA elements that have nothing to do with currently existing human nations and planets, and both of those can eventually have citizens who are not humans. In any case - those are things concerning the possibilities of the time way after the current war's conclusion.

So why would Loroi admiralty decide to share their military secrets with humans?

The whole eventual cooperation thing implies human societies integrating into the Union economy, academia and MIC, as every other full Union member already is. Which in turn implies that pinkies will be pulling their weight making shit useful for elven pew-pew, and likely contributing to developing new ones with their spectacular scientific capabilities. Haven't you heard that them pinkies got into interstellar space right outta their caves, with nuthin' but rocks and twigs?

A different perspective may prove useful, but is that likely given the circumstances?

Well the plot is happening, innit?

[silentstormpt]

Always had the notion there was a lack of trained crew while ships could be made with no issues based on needs, and since humanity somehow is useless for the lack of better word, then the only usefulness is a new frontline and resupplying that frontline....

That's hardly an issue at that TL, Loroi-tier ships are carrying tapestries and ultra-wide immersion TVs basically for posterity.

The ships would probably even be modified to remove a few said "extras" for more military specialized equipment like VR training rooms, or other ship necessities.

[Ithekro]

Upgrading the Humans with even pre-war era technology (or even a century or more old technology) would probably make them at least useful as a bulwark force or defense fleet in the Sol sector. Their ships need to be able to at least keep up with standard Loroi support ships, have comparable defensive screens, and be armed with at least a viable weapon system (likely laser and particle beam weapons of Terran design with tips from Loroi observers). Also faster accelerating missile weapons, to make up for the Human ships lack of modern Pulse Cannons and better Blasters.

If Human scientist and engineers can design large enough ships with enough weapons (since we won't have speed, and it is unlikely that Earth shields strength will be on par with the Umiak), they could at least throw out large volumes of fire to neutralize Umiak torpedo spreads and gunboat swarms., than maybe follow their current design ideas and design a longer ranged spinal Particle Beam cannon to roughly match the Loroi Superheavy blaster, as an offensive punch weapon. Because while the Loroi seem to have issues with the Wave-Loom, they aren't going to hand that tech over to the Humans (unless the humanity observes it and goes, "oh I know that one, why not do add a this and a that, and you can reduce the heat waste, or dump said waste into hyperspace, allowing for more weapon use...or larger weapon yield").

[Curlysan]

Assuming that the Human tech base and industrial scale probably wouldn't add much to the war; I would agree that using humans to crew ships might be the most useful, barring any sansai revelations. The shared cartography angle was something I hadn't thought of.

I also had the nasty thought that if mental powers can be amplified by a device; it stands to reason that it's possible they could be detected by technological means. The enemy might not only be able to thwart far-sensing, but actually be able to counter detect it.

Humans may be a buffer in more than one sense of the word. Perhaps even an adjunct.

[MBehave]

Way I see it, Humans in outsider could already upgrade ships to fight at Loroi/Umiak ranges.
I worked out the DIBS system in another thread... name was party a joke but the system is actually viable in theory.
More Detail
https://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vi ... 707#p35707

Ignoring the DIBS idea...

Taking 8 heavy lasers(terran cruiser heavy laser number) and simply putting them side by side touching in a circular array would increase max range from 50000km to ~140000km.(assumes 1m emitters for heavy lasers and all must fire at same time at 10nm wavelength and focal point be on target)

8 Heavy laser array damage
50000km 24-40 damage(8*3-5)
120000km 8-16 damage(8*1-2)

This actually puts the Terran Cruisers firepower on par with smaller Loroi Ships.
Loroi Light Cruiser
50000km
02x2 Heavy Blaster damage=2-20(2-5*4)
04x2 Medium Blaster =8-24(1-3*8)
Total 10-44

120000km
02x2 Heavy Blaster=20(0-4*4) 0-16 damage
04x2 Medium Blaster=24(0-2*8)= 0-16 damage
Total 0-32 damage

Terran ships have craptastic armour and no shields, but they could get in a few hits before being destroyed, if they could be installed with shields they would actually be somewhat useful to the Loroi as system defense(such as defending a fixed point like a star base).

Upgrading the Humans with even pre-war era technology (or even a century or more old technology) would probably make them at least useful as a bulwark force or defense fleet in the Sol sector. Their ships need to be able to at least keep up with standard Loroi support ships, have comparable defensive screens, and be armed with at least a viable weapon system (likely laser and particle beam weapons of Terran design with tips from Loroi observers). Also faster accelerating missile weapons, to make up for the Human ships lack of modern Pulse Cannons and better Blasters.

If Human scientist and engineers can design large enough ships with enough weapons (since we won't have speed, and it is unlikely that Earth shields strength will be on par with the Umiak), they could at least throw out large volumes of fire to neutralize Umiak torpedo spreads and gunboat swarms., than maybe follow their current design ideas and design a longer ranged spinal Particle Beam cannon to roughly match the Loroi Superheavy blaster, as an offensive punch weapon. Because while the Loroi seem to have issues with the Wave-Loom, they aren't going to hand that tech over to the Humans (unless the humanity observes it and goes, "oh I know that one, why not do add a this and a that, and you can reduce the heat waste, or dump said waste into hyperspace, allowing for more weapon use...or larger weapon yield").

[Mk_C]

Taking 8 heavy lasers(terran cruiser heavy laser number) and simply putting them side by side touching in a circular array would increase max range from 50000km to ~140000km.(assumes 1m emitters for heavy lasers and all must fire at same time at 10nm wavelength and focal point be on target)

Does it really work like that in canon, though? Because one imagines that if it did work like that Umiak would not suffer any range issues at all. Really, anyone would just stack their lazorz into hueg arrays to the point where a laser implementation of the topical Selenic Compensator of a BFG becomes sorta not completely pointless, and similarly humongous ships become kinda mandatory, shifting the entire space combat meta towards oversized ships beaming the shit out of each other across distances measured in AUs.

And even if it did work like that - even a "fair" encounter with a Hierarchy fleet of a similar size would still start with the usual Hierarchy tactic - a long range torpedo deluge that would make both Macross and Project 1144 cry rivers of envy, and that human fleet would have absolutely no chances of intercepting even if we assume current human targeting systems to be worth a damn against countermeasures on Hierarchy ships and torps. Which they are most certainly not. No survivors.

Really, the only way the current TCA fleet can face the Big Boi forces and so much as make them blink once in a surprise is some sort of an 8-dimensional gambit-within-a-gambit-within-a-gambit Ender Wiggin meets Admiral Thrawn turbo galaxy brain outsmarting based on sending the opposing command into a violent epileptic seizure with it's sheer genius and complexity. That, and high efficiency plot screens.

[Ithekro]

I would assume laser arrays, if they were ever tried by the older races, are outdated by having too many points of failure, and the mention that the beams lose intensity over distance, and don't do much to certain kinds of armor. How often does it work. How fast can it cycle? Can the waste energy be dealt with? Can it preform to idea specifications.

How often does the unit break down? What happens if a beam is even a nanosecond off its firing time? Does it throw off the aim? Damage the unit? Cut down the range? Cut down the damage? Can it still fire with one laser out of commission? Or does it have to be balanced to work correctly?

If it works. Can you reduce its size? House it in a single turreted unit? Or get away with less emitters but still get a viable weapons?

Can you mount say three or four emitters in a single barrel than mount multiple barrels on a turret?

Or to think on a different style of turret, can you place a single firing unit in a larger turret that has multiple array emitters pointing in different directions, and than use a few of these emitter groups at a time, and use the rotation to cycle the units on cool down (not quite a Gatling gun approach, but close) the each set of emitters would have whatever the number of emitters needed to gain the range/damage advantage, while the multiple units in the turrets would rotate into and out of firing position. This also, in theory allows the unit to fire in any (unobstructed) direction along its 360 degree rotation quickly. With probably some elevation control so the weapon isn't a flat plain only device. Basically a turret housing will say eight to twelve firing positions in a circle. Each position with an emitter cluster array. The center would have the firing system which can direct to any of the emitter arrays. the turret could rotate to allow the emitters to cool down or give time for the heat management systems to work, while allowing the turret to keep firing. While that is a lot of emitters, the functional weapon part is just the single unit, with many enough to shunt off power to fire two sets of emitters at a time (with the the neighboring firing positions able to at least marginally direct two arrays worth of power at a single large target at closer ranges. Too far away and only one will be able to hit, since they probably won't have tight over lapping fields of fire.

(For reference, this is basically the turret style of most Gatlantis (White Comet Empire) warships in Space Battleship Yamato. The remake version from Yamato 2199 and Yamato 2202 even have quad emitters in each barrel/weapon port on said turrets)

[MBehave]

It works that way in real life, outsider has its own rules, Im talking what humans could do if it was real.

Terran Heavy lasers appear to be Xray based on their damage drop off(beam diffusion) on the weapon charts and the size of the laser gun on a cruiser, Loroi Point defense laser appears to be Gamma based based on their damage drop off and emitter size.

In theory particle and Plasma weapons can reach higher energy efficiencies and less waste heat generation then lasers(again this is real life not Outsider universe) For long range weapons Lasers beat particle/Plasma except for some exotic particle beams that fire metal "gas" that condenses into pellets on the way to the target and is effectively a cross between a rail/particle gun. When you want range you go lasers, this is assuming you have the space for sufficient lens/emitter/power/heat control for the laser in question.

Taking 8 heavy lasers(terran cruiser heavy laser number) and simply putting them side by side touching in a circular array would increase max range from 50000km to ~140000km.(assumes 1m emitters for heavy lasers and all must fire at same time at 10nm wavelength and focal point be on target)

Does it really work like that in canon, though? Because one imagines that if it did work like that Umiak would not suffer any range issues at all. Really, anyone would just stack their lazorz into hueg arrays to the point where a laser implementation of the topical Selenic Compensator of a BFG becomes sorta not completely pointless, and similarly humongous ships become kinda mandatory, shifting the entire space combat meta towards oversized ships beaming the shit out of each other across distances measured in AUs.

And even if it did work like that - even a "fair" encounter with a Hierarchy fleet of a similar size would still start with the usual Hierarchy tactic - a long range torpedo deluge that would make both Macross and Project 1144 cry rivers of envy, and that human fleet would have absolutely no chances of intercepting even if we assume current human targeting systems to be worth a damn against countermeasures on Hierarchy ships and torps. Which they are most certainly not. No survivors.

Really, the only way the current TCA fleet can face the Big Boi forces and so much as make them blink once in a surprise is some sort of an 8-dimensional gambit-within-a-gambit-within-a-gambit Ender Wiggin meets Admiral Thrawn turbo galaxy brain outsmarting based on sending the opposing command into a violent epileptic seizure with it's sheer genius and complexity. That, and high efficiency plot screens.

[Siber]

It works that way in real life, outsider has its own rules, Im talking what humans could do if it was real.

The problem with this approach is not necessarily the tactics or technology proposed, but rather with the implicit idea that these things are possible and for some reason only humans have the creativity or know-how to figure out and deploy them. If you don't suppose that the two dominant powers of a civilization that's had hundreds of centuries of space war can't figure out some tricks that armchair speculators from a civilization that has not yet fired a single shot in anger in space can come up with, the conclusion you are left with is that there is some yet to be thought of consideration that keeps said trick from being viable here.

It's all fine and dandy to pick at the logic underpinning the setting's concepts as a separate topic, but when applied to proposals of things that can or should happen in the comic's future I find it rather nonsensical from a storytelling perspective, no matter how good the physics behind the proposal prove to be.

[QuakeIV]

Ranges are fairly short in this setting (casaba howitzers would ostensibly be effective to millions of kilometers), its probably fair to say that beam weapons are under the same influence.

[Ithekro]

Casaba howitzers don't have the range you are looking for. If I read the data on them correctly, they are essentially 10,000 km range weapons, with an upgraded version having an extremely large nuclear warhead yields powering it only pushing the range up to something like 25,000 km. That's 10 - 25 Megameters...or the ranges of the Earth point defense lasers, or Loroi fighter laser cannons. The damage might be greater....I have no gauge for the effectiveness of said weapon verses the Outsider series advanced weaponry.

Sure large laser weapons might have long ranges, but they should be impractical in this setting. The Loroi use of laser for point defense is considered quaint, even though it is effective against Umiak missiles. Earth's shipbased lasers seem comparable with Loroi and Umiak light and medium blasters at close ranges, but said lasers yield drops off rapidly, while the more advanced races particle beams weapons can put out damage out to five times the Human weapons ranges. While said damage isn't really any greater than the Earth laser, it just has better ranges.

The plasma based weapons, on the other hand, have higher yields and ranges, with the relatively new Loroi pulse cannons having a variable yield problem they have not isolated yet, but gives them superb range. The Historians' original model of said weapon is very powerful, and you won't want to cross them should they actually stand up and fight.