Warhammer 40,000

[Trantor]

The reason that there is effectively no technological advancement in 40k is because of the way the Mechanicus works - they have a more or less absolute monopoly on all technology. And they treat it as religion. Everything is ritualized, from pressing the power button on a computer to turning on a lightswitch. Innovation is actively restricted. And generally punished with the charge and subsequent conviction of tech-heresy, and you get turned into a servitor, if you're lucky.
In addition, the Mechanicus considers the (mostly lost) STC the be-all, end-all of knowledge.

Sounds like the hell of everydays´ life in Yevgeny Zamyatins novel "We".

[uthilian]

Imperial advancement is slow but not necessarily stagnate the Black Templar for an example came up with a variation of the Land raider (land raider crusader) that has since been quickly adopted by other chapters of space marines some even altering it further (land raider incinerator I think its called). so its not that thinking out of the box is not encouraged but rather as others have said it big changers cause problems as far as rolling it out over an empire that takes years to get from one side to the other.

In some things though the imperials have lost for example tech I remember reading once that they have examples of ship mounted weapons from the dark age of technology that can still fire further, with more accuracy & power than ones they build now.

[TrashMan]

I love WH40K. Not a player with miniatures but I do like the setting. It's exceptions crazy and..unique.

That said, while I'm not a "fan", I did one try my hand at creating my own Chapter:
http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/inde ... 42&cb=8796

[Cy83r]

I love WH40K. Not a player with miniatures but I do like the setting. It's exceptions crazy and..unique.

That said, while I'm not a "fan", I did one try my hand at creating my own Chapter:
http://warhammer40kfanon.wikia.com/inde ... 42&cb=8796

Mm, I think my last attempt at a chapter gave them a semi-rogue Explorator using their forces to test an earthquake array... I kinda always go for the straight homerun than anything else.

[Markward]

I don't play warhammer, but I have read the fiction, and it was good. Gaunt's ghost series being the first set of novels. Then again I have to say Ciphalus Cain (Hero of the Empire!) stories was a good read.

[NOMAD]

Thought I haven't played the all of the Warhammer 40k, I really like the models for each of the races and their units ( I wish blizzards would do some assembled Starcraft models to this effect ) and yes I do know about the Starcraft broad game

[Nathan_]

hi hi

The thing that always cracks me about Warhammer 40,000 is that they have these big huge spaceships, and then they fight on the ground with troops and things. Seriously though, I don't mind too much, I mean they've essentially got magic, so who am I to complain?

You can melta it, you can lancer it, you can virus bomb it, But until theres a genetically engineered godman with his rapid fire RPG launcher standing on it you don't own it.

[fredgiblet]

rapid fire RPG launcher

You're giving bolters way too much credit, they're just glorified Gyrojets.

[Nathan_]

yeah, but thats not nearly grimdark enough.

[Cy83r]

rapid fire RPG launcher

You're giving bolters way too much credit, they're just glorified Gyrojets.

.75 caliber gyrojets (19.5mm, ~0.768"), potentially with a dual-stage launch (it's the only reason we fans can think of for bolters ejecting brass)

For reference, this is a 20mm vulcan shell compared to a 9mm pistol round (heavy bolters are something like 1.00cal/25.5mm); an RPG-7 warhead, on the other hand, is roughly 40mm across.

Ideally, a .75cal bolt round will have a smaller cartridge since the kinetic energy necessary to get the shell up to lethal speeds so the rocket motor can take care of the rest would be lower than a charge necessary to propel the round across its entire lifetime. Further their casing seems to be designed around a straight pistol cartridge rather than a flared rifle cartridge, supporting this supposition.

Just imagine what those should sound like *Pfoom-Shwooo* and at something like (I've heard a 30-round mag can be emptied in roughly 2 seconds) 700~950rpm cyclic [the cyclic rate on an m16], it would probably be as unique as the sound of a GAU-8 is on the battlefield today. Not to mention, the primary warhead is designed to penetrate mainline body armor from the future plus flesh and then detonate inside the target; keeping in mind that these warheads are almost as big as a 20mm Vulcan shell.

TL;DR Glorified Gyrojets are plenty grimdark enough.

[Karst45]

Not to mention, the primary warhead is designed to penetrate mainline body armor from the future plus flesh and then detonate inside the target

Well if you can make them detonate when they hit body armor, the shockwave could render any body armor pretty much useless.

[NOMAD]

Not to mention, the primary warhead is designed to penetrate mainline body armor from the future plus flesh and then detonate inside the target

Well if you can make them detonate when they hit body armor, the shockwave could render any body armor pretty much useless.

why does that remind me of an image described in Star craft books

"and their bodies dances from multiple impacts and they were shredded to pieces"

[fredgiblet]

Well if you can make them detonate when they hit body armor, the shockwave could render any body armor pretty much useless.

What you're describing is a HESH round, there's a reason no one but the Brits use them anymore for MBT combat, making armor that beats them is easy.

.75 caliber gyrojets (19.5mm, ~0.768"), potentially with a dual-stage launch (it's the only reason we fans can think of for bolters ejecting brass)

For reference, this is a 20mm vulcan shell compared to a 9mm pistol round (heavy bolters are something like 1.00cal/25.5mm); an RPG-7 warhead, on the other hand, is roughly 40mm across.
*snipped*
Ideally, a .75cal bolt round will have a smaller cartridge since the kinetic energy necessary to get the shell up to lethal speeds so the rocket motor can take care of the rest would be lower than a charge necessary to propel the round across its entire lifetime. Further their casing seems to be designed around a straight pistol cartridge rather than a flared rifle cartridge, supporting this supposition.

Just imagine what those should sound like *Pfoom-Shwooo* and at something like (I've heard a 30-round mag can be emptied in roughly 2 seconds) 700~950rpm cyclic [the cyclic rate on an m16], it would probably be as unique as the sound of a GAU-8 is on the battlefield today. Not to mention, the primary warhead is designed to penetrate mainline body armor from the future plus flesh and then detonate inside the target; keeping in mind that these warheads are almost as big as a 20mm Vulcan shell.

TL;DR Glorified Gyrojets are plenty grimdark enough.

Well, trying to argue logic is pointless when you're talking about 40k, since as previously mentioned it's about as hard as pudding, but I'll toss a couple things out there.

A dual-stage launch is, as far as I can see, pointless, it removes the primary value of the gyrojet (the light, dirt-cheap launch tube) while gaining LESS velocity than the same mass of propellant consumed in the normal rocket manner would likely bring. The only upside that I can see is that they would reach lethal velocity slightly faster with that method. A much more plausible explanation is that GW didn't think it through and/or (who are we kidding it's and) doesn't give a shit. Rule of cool says there must be piles of expended brass lying around so the bolter gets brass ejection.

While a rocket engine may be more efficient than a regular bullet you still need sufficient propellant to get to a lethal speed. Given the tiny size of the bolter casings, the significant mass of the slugs and given the armor that supposedly would shrug off any modern weapon I find it highly unlikely that the bolter slugs would get anywhere near enough velocity to penetrate modern body armor without handwaving. Of course nothing in 40k works without handwaving so that's really not a problem.

The reality is quite simple, GW doesn't care if their technology makes any sort of sense, and why should they? Even I wouldn't think twice about picking up 40k if it wasn't for the fact that it's retardedly expensive and obscenely time-consuming if you play with people who expect you to paint your army. No one who plays 40k plays it for the science, and the people who refuse to play it because of the lack of science most likely wouldn't be satisfied with anything the did to explain it. So their only option would be to actually make it make sense, and that would take work, and GW isn't interested in that.

[Cy83r]

Well, just because the setting is about as stiffly written as a cheap wire hangar doesn't mean you can't dissect as much of it as possible for one's own gratification.

Regarding the boltgun, we could be working with advanced propellants, maybe some sort of liquid-state or plasma-based propellant that allow a bolt shell to reach a lethal muzzle velocity. Additionally, without a gas-compression-and-cartridge recoil system, the next bolt must be loaded into the chamber manually or via a mechanised feed. In the interest of simplicity and lack of headaches (as well as the cool requirement for copious amounts of spent brass), I'll assume the Mechanicus went with a blowback-operated bolter design despite any misgivings I'm sure all of us have about how well such a method would work.

[junk]

Insn't a bolter a caseless round. if I remember correctly the first push, which actually allows it to be lethal even in close range is due to case being consumed in the first burst so to speak. Essentially like a normal round in a sense.

After that, the bolter itself then has propellant. But as opposed to a gyrojet, it's dangerous everywhere along it's path. Actually more dangerous near the beginnings, as the propellant itself is used for the explosion.

[Cy83r]

Insn't a bolter a caseless round. if I remember correctly the first push, which actually allows it to be lethal even in close range is due to case being consumed in the first burst so to speak. Essentially like a normal round in a sense.

After that, the bolter itself then has propellant. But as opposed to a gyrojet, it's dangerous everywhere along it's path. Actually more dangerous near the beginnings, as the propellant itself is used for the explosion.

Caseless rounds fly in the face of every single depiction of bolters there ever was, but again, we can assume that cartridge-using designs are merely common to the Imperium at large (even given the rarity of bolters) and that other methods and designs are entirely plausible.

[Mjolnir]

Caseless rounds fly in the face of every single depiction of bolters there ever was, but again, we can assume that cartridge-using designs are merely common to the Imperium at large (even given the rarity of bolters) and that other methods and designs are entirely plausible.

Easy: it's a caseless round kept in a single-round protective canister for handling (protecting the propellant from moisture, damage, and unintentional ignition). The canister is automatically removed and ejected as the round is moved into the chamber for firing, which is why it *looks* like the gun is firing cased rounds.

Makes perfect sense!

[Fotiadis_110]

i suppose someone has to stop and explain what the WH40k wiki says about tech to explain the 'suppression' of advanced technologies.

First off: the technology of the era of the 40K universe is to a similar level to USB music players: thus if a normal person examines how it works they would not have a clue without spending years learning the principles behind them, Thus Tech-Priests who spend years learning the 'religion' of technology.
Worse is the fact that the empire was hit by the wars with chaos to the level where all of their access to the technology from the 'peak' of human civilisation was lost, and the technology remaining to them is fragmentary at best, from what i recall the Chimera was an multi-purpose machine designed mainly for agriculture purposes on worlds throughout the human races worlds, and the design was 're-purposed' for other jobs when war broke out leading to a vast variety of tanks for the Imperial Guard that can be built rapidly from the common chassis (think of it like the sherman tank).
The Tech-Priests happen to be the only reason the imperium of man has successfully survived since the invasions of chaos and the rest, and their devotion to keeping technology pure has preserved each of the techs that they still possess. Unfortunately they also are aware of the risks of 'heresy' lets not forget chaos will corrupt the mind of anyone they can get their hands on, and with technology comes power, and with power they have constructed portals to the warp leading to some of the defining battles in the empire.
An 'idea' on how to improve can often be due to outside agents influence, something which is highly risky and could potentially lead to much destruction and corruption.

Can the imperium of man AFFORD to allow the expansion of such hazards?

Also: in WW2 the sherman tank was actually an early war tank, and thus was obsolete before it even hit the battlefields, yet the US having designed a replacement tank that could do the job better, decided to prefer to maintain mass production of a tank inferior to those it was fighting rather than risking having less tanks on the battlefield.
This same analogy could easily be angled at the imperium of man for about 95% of the tank designs I have read about online. It's not like i'm rich enough to actually afford to buy all the source information books, but there is something satisfying about a baneblade (actually a tank designed to be a tank originally, frighteningly enough) being armed with a huge melta cannon that largely fails to leave enough room for the other guns normally on board...
I think it's a shame they discontinued Epic

[fredgiblet]

Also: in WW2 the sherman tank was actually an early war tank, and thus was obsolete before it even hit the battlefields

This is false. The Sherman was in fact quite comparable to it's opponents at the start of the war. By the time Normandy rolled around it was woefully inadequate, but in North Africa it was fine.

[Trantor]

Also: in WW2 the sherman tank was actually an early war tank, and thus was obsolete before it even hit the battlefields

This is false. The Sherman was in fact quite comparable to it's opponents at the start of the war. By the time Normandy rolled around it was woefully inadequate, but in North Africa it was fine.

I respectfully disagree. Operation Torch was a success not because of the sherman, but rather although. Key factors were air supremacy, supply and good intel from the local resistance (Slowikowski, "Agency Africa").