page 82

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

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NOMAD
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Re: page 82

Post by NOMAD »

Well Suttrjac, I have to agree with your first point, right on the money. To be used on large Umiak forces at Mid to long range. but would do you think of the warheads, med or heavy weight ?
Karst45 wrote:
that wouldn't be enough, i would add an Air Raid Siren just to be sure ;)
then my I give a selection:
A) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGUrM19BnJ8
B) at 30 secs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYgwCWTW ... ure=relmfu
C) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shqg4a-O ... er&list=UL just waited for it
Timefly wrote:And after the long hiatus prior to page 79/80, I'm so happy to see Outsider updating again! :D
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!!!![/quote]

timefly: rule one about outsider updates: you may comment about updates, BUT NEVER ABOUT THE PROGRESS . . . it been proven to get late updates

now I'll just jump off a bridge for breaking that rule

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH CRACK . . . dame rocks
I am a wander, going from place to place without a home I am a NOMAD

Suttrjac
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Re: page 82

Post by Suttrjac »

Well my opinion I'd suppose the weight would directly correspond to the martial philosophy of the firer. In the case of the Loroi I don't see them packing an endall on to what I'm reckoning is a light battle cruiser though there is the waveloom on the Tempest so I might be wrong. 'Course I ain't holding a certainty as to whether or not the flagship is a BC or not so I might be wrong on that account too.

If I had to take a guess I'd render em with a medium weight, ain't no right sense in making a heavier slower warhead when a lighter one'll perform just fine and probably to better effect for the intended purpose. Lighter munitions means more of em with better agility.

And if I can digress I do wonder as to the nature of the warheads. The missiles look to me like a stubbier version of a TBG-7 sans the propellant charge and just in space. I'd like to think they're an analogue to thermobaric weapons of today, penetrate the armor and then catch fire the air inside. That way you ain't just causing local damage from the explosion but you've also a chance to kill the ship entire or at least any suited up personnel in the vicinity.

Course I ain't no scientist and there's a decent possibility I'm talking out my ass but I just got this beautiful image of a wall of fire goin down corridors :D

though I ain't no scientist I couldn't rightly say what would happen.

Wintermute
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Re: page 82

Post by Wintermute »

I'd like to say something about this page really fast, and just the way Outsider has been depicting spaceship combat so far in general.

I am really happy that the combat isn't just Ship gets hit. Ship explodes. It is really nice to see armor and shields doing something for a change, and holding under pressure. It's really a refreshing change of pace from the normal Sci-Fi tropes (and most popular media in general) where armor just may as well not even exist.

NOMAD
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Re: page 82

Post by NOMAD »

Suttrjac wrote:Well my opinion I'd suppose the weight would directly correspond to the martial philosophy of the firer. In the case of the Loroi I don't see them packing an endall on to what I'm reckoning is a light battle cruiser though there is the waveloom on the Tempest so I might be wrong. 'Course I ain't holding a certainty as to whether or not the flagship is a BC or not so I might be wrong on that account too.
Well , if you check the insider loroi ship class the Tempest is a Group command ship, IE: a squadron, or division leader) and its weapon load is near a battle cruiser ( see the vanguard BC). And the waveloom was a type of focused super beam weapon (IIRC :?: )
Suttrjac wrote: If I had to take a guess I'd render em with a medium weight, ain't no right sense in making a heavier slower warhead when a lighter one'll perform just fine and probably to better effect for the intended purpose. Lighter munitions means more of em with better agility.
I'm for that opinion too, more Anti-ship uses mean a med of light projectile. but on the other hand, light projectile mean ALOT more could be placed into the tolot blisters weapon system. but your reasoning make sense ;)
Suttrjac wrote: And if I can digress I do wonder as to the nature of the warheads. The missiles look to me like a stubbier version of a TBG-7 sans the propellant charge and just in space. I'd like to think they're an analogue to thermobaric weapons of today, penetrate the armor and then catch fire the air inside. That way you ain't just causing local damage from the explosion but you've also a chance to kill the ship entire or at least any suited up personnel in the vicinity.
Most warhead in Outsiders are anti-matter -like types and when I mean like it not a Pure AM reaction ( which take ALOT of energy to make ) but something close. Therefore, it very effective towards shields and hulls. Yet, your point of massive explosion with pressure wave would still applied.
Suttrjac wrote:Course I ain't no scientist and there's a decent possibility I'm talking out my ass but I just got this beautiful image of a wall of fire goin down corridors :D

though I ain't no scientist I couldn't rightly say what would happen.
ah yes, the old Sci-fi battle standard. but still fun :D
I am a wander, going from place to place without a home I am a NOMAD

Majincarne
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Re: page 82

Post by Majincarne »

With an energy weapon hit it would probably be a bit more of great blinding light at eh end of the hallway any non oblique surface either combusting or melting while glowing furiously and the atmosphere turning rapidly into plasma.

A missile hit may do the wall of fire its possible i would think, but probably be more fire wash around the far area and shock wave causing secondary shrapnel as it passes down the hallway.

Both events would probably be over before human speeds of perception even registered it as occurring.

TrashMan
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Re: page 82

Post by TrashMan »

Given that the Loroi obliderated a FAR LARGER Umiak missile barrage....what exactly is the danger from those 4 cluster missle pods?

If 20 Loroi ships can take out 1000 missiles, shouldn't a numericly suprior Umiak force make short work of these?

Or is the PD technology of the Umiak so utterly horrible?

Wintermute
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Re: page 82

Post by Wintermute »

Potentially a big factor when considering this:

The Umiak torpedoes were launched from beyond the Loroi beam weapon's maximum range (which is farther than the Umiak's). The Loroi Blisters are being launched at (comparatively) much closer range; from within the Umiak maximum range.

On paper this gives the Loroi missiles a much smaller time to impact and to be intercepted, which could factor into how easy they wind up being to shoot down.

Alternatively - given the Umiak philosophy of ignoring combat losses - it could be that the Umiak just ignore trying to shoot down incoming missiles in favor of concentrating heavier fire on the Loroi ships.
Last edited by Wintermute on Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TrashMan
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Re: page 82

Post by TrashMan »

Wouldn't that also give them less speed (less time to accelerate?)

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bunnyboy
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Re: page 82

Post by bunnyboy »

True, but it still help, because it take away some of fire, which is targeted to lorois.
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GeoModder
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Re: page 82

Post by GeoModder »

Next page should be simple: an expanding cloud of plasma where once those eight Umiak 'heavies' were... :lol:

I'd say the Loroi barrage has a good chance to hit a few of those capital ships. Quite a bit less time to snag them out of space, and the Umiak have been accelerating dead on towards the Loroi formation. Must have build up a respectable delta-v by now.
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Suttrjac
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Re: page 82

Post by Suttrjac »

@Trashman

Don't forget to factor in superior Loroi acceleration, I imagine that plays a role and also that we haven't seen the life span of the ordnance, we don't know to a certainty the final mode of delivery of the system however obvious it may appear at the moment. Those discharged missiles may themselves contain additional smaller warheads that capitalize on what speed has already been gained.

If such a thing is true then you'll have three stages of acceleration each one building on the former. The first is when the blisters get launched, the second when the medium warheads are dishcarged and then when the third set are discharged thus allowing for, in my mind anyways, a decent method of expedient acceleration in a short amount of time

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anticarrot
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Re: page 82

Post by anticarrot »

Majincarne wrote:With an energy weapon hit it would probably be a bit more of great blinding light at eh end of the hallway any non oblique surface either combusting or melting while glowing furiously and the atmosphere turning rapidly into plasma.A missile hit may do the wall of fire its possible i would think, but probably be more fire wash around the far area and shock wave causing secondary shrapnel as it passes down the hallway.
In addition the beam weapons are going to cause quite a bit of secondary radiation. I can imagine a relatively small jagged hole passing though the ship - surrounded by a 50m hazard zone.

A missile hit though is going to do a lot more damage. (I'm assuming this *isn't* BSG, and that they don't waste their time with high explosives.) Anything nuke or higher is effectively going to be a flashbulb which pumps out gamma rays in the yottawatt range for about 40 nano seconds. Unfortunately, unless the hull or shields are magically good at reflecting this, or the missile explodes more than a few miles away, that will super heat any air or water container on the ship. Gas containers include the ship's main hull, and water containers of course includes Loroi bodies. Then there's radiation...

Assuming the pekaboo example two thirds down this page is accurate: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/radiat ... _Radiation
The same warhead with the same ship, and poor Floyd is going to be upchucking if he's anywhere within 3,350km of the warhead. Loroi and Umiak warships probably have better armour, but even 1100km/m2 is still going to only reduce the upchuck distance to 3.3km. And with its shields gone, I'm not sure that a Rapier CLE (for example) has that much mass to spare.

And yes, while I know the Zsar Bomba is a big bomb, antimatter is really explosive. In my proto-novel I have a material called norite. A barionic composite made from an antimatter iron-58 atom kept safe within a buckyball of carbon-12; which isn't too far removed from the 'almost antimatter' stuff used for fuel in this universe. Using norite, the zsar bomba would weigh 10kg, and be more than small enough to fit in those little bomblet missiles.

Zakharra
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Re: page 82

Post by Zakharra »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Well, Stillstorm did say to "reserve nothing," so if she held onto them, she'd be disobeying orders I guess.

Stillstorm also said 'Fire on zone one! Break up that wedge!' So use of the Tolat Blisters is appropriate with that order. I imagine the Umiak will not be expecting multiple ordinace like that to be launched at such close range.

Karst45
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Re: page 82

Post by Karst45 »


already seen them. i actually gathered some plan to build one out of an old weed-eater

TrashMan
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Re: page 82

Post by TrashMan »

Curiously enough the Multiple Warhead system could be used on mass drivers.

Immagine a cailgun/railgun shell that splits open (after some distacne is reached) and lets out a rain of smaller shells in a cone pattern...who then release their own bullets.

Basicly a long-ranged space shotgun...

osmium
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Re: page 82

Post by osmium »

Things to note/contribute:

These are likely sprint missiles, not long range high thrust output torpedoes but close range high acceleration. Our sprint missile system does 100g acceleration in atmosphere. I may do the math at some point, but basically get the force applied by the rocket knowing the wind resistance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_%28physics%29) making a few assumptions / worst case approximations and you could figure out what it could do in space, suffice to say significantly better than 100g.

At close range, the umiak either can shoot down the loroi or they can waste their precious time in firing range. At a closer range, especially if the Umiak are wedging tightly to punch through the Loroi formation these sorts of shotgun missile packages could be very deadly. It's not lightspeed lag, but refire rate that gets in the way here, noting that many weapons have a minimum of 40 second cool down (laser autocannons are like 27 seconds). So once you're in close enough a missile weapon especially with a very high acceleration can close a lot of distance AND given the number of shots the Umiak point defenses can make before said missiles can get there AND the fact that only the vessels in the wedge can likely fire on said missiles I think yields a weapon that could be effective in hedging against clustered Umiak penetration formations. Furthermore I seem to recall the Umiak ships either not having or not having many weapons devoted to point defense, in part because the Loroi don't make heavy use of missiles.

-O

NOMAD
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Re: page 82

Post by NOMAD »

Karst45 wrote:
already seen them. i actually gathered some plan to build one out of an old weed-eater
well that would be interesting ( weerrrrr rroooooo weeerrrr rrrrooooo ). with a nice bit of fresh weed smell :lol:
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fredgiblet
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Re: page 82

Post by fredgiblet »

icekatze wrote:Well, Stillstorm did say to "reserve nothing," so if she held onto them, she'd be disobeying orders I guess.
I don't think that means "fire everything at this very second", rather I think it means "don't keep reserves, use all your ordnance at the most opportune time."
TrashMan wrote:Immagine a cailgun/railgun shell that splits open (after some distacne is reached) and lets out a rain of smaller shells in a cone pattern...who then release their own bullets.

Basicly a long-ranged space shotgun...
Meh, the magnetic fields required to make a mass driver powerful enough to even consider would make structural integrity a huge issue, anything designed to come apart probably will, inside the gun.

Even if you fix that you have the basic physics problem inherent in mass drivers that render them largely useless in Outsider.

TrashMan
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Re: page 82

Post by TrashMan »

fredgiblet wrote:
TrashMan wrote:Immagine a cailgun/railgun shell that splits open (after some distacne is reached) and lets out a rain of smaller shells in a cone pattern...who then release their own bullets.

Basicly a long-ranged space shotgun...
Meh, the magnetic fields required to make a mass driver powerful enough to even consider would make structural integrity a huge issue, anything designed to come apart probably will, inside the gun.

Even if you fix that you have the basic physics problem inherent in mass drivers that render them largely useless in Outsider.

Hence the shotgun approach. To cover a large area of space. This VASTLY increases the hit-ratio, even if the damage is reduced due to smaller shells.

Another advantage is htat the enemy would not see it coming. Loroi and Umiak don't use mass drivers. The bulelts themselves are almost impossible to detect. The launch would probably be detected, but would hte Loroi know what was launched?
How far away would they move to evade? If they think it's a normal mass driver bullet, they wouldn't need to move much from their starting position.

So the basic use would be to fire a few shots simoultaniously, not aiming at the ship, but rahter above, bewloe, to the left and right.. you want the enemy to move and enter into the fire cone..And the covered area and density would depend on the distance at which the "shotgun" is deployed

Of course, once the enemy is familiar with the weapon, it would be harder to get a hit. But this is the only way I can think off to make mass drivers viable, even a bit.

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anticarrot
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Re: page 82

Post by anticarrot »

fredgiblet wrote:Meh, the magnetic fields required to make a mass driver powerful enough to even consider would make structural integrity a huge issue, anything designed to come apart probably will, inside the gun.
Bare in mind everyone and their cousin have what amounts to 'electro gravity' in this world. It's a fair bet that they can build gravity coil guns that can do the job and would not suffer from this problem.

Today we can also build smart-fused and manoeuvrable shells that can survive very high accelerations in a cannon - and 40 years ago we could build the aforementioned sprint missile that could still function at 100g. And the same 'laws of physics' apply to the guns and engines. Either coil guns are weak and ships can't turn corners (in our world). Or ships can turn corners (as even heavily damaged Loroi ships can apparently do) and coil guns become infinity minus one weapons. Besides which, once any given ship commits to a course of action (say a high speed charge) and thus limits its manoeuvrability, and you introduce smart fusing (at a minimum), and stop being schizophrenic about the involved technology (engine tech = gun tech) then the utility of projectile weapons rises significantly.

This is one reason why the Millennium Gun is more effective than the Phalanx cannon.

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