Page 93

[Mjolnir]

With our technological aptitude, humans would learn fast.

So do the Umiak. And they've got far more population and other client species to draw on, while we would be forced to put the bulk of our resources into supporting the Umiak rather than R&D. The Umiak will be the ones with technological superiority in this scenario.

And if we play our cards right, then yes, we can pull it off.
We'd be operating under restrictions, but the Umiak don't have to know everything we're up to. Neither can they. Hife a few secret reearch bases in deep underground bunkers. Or shipyardds and outposts in asteroids. We'd not be as big or as powerfull as them..But we don't have to be.

A few underground bunkers aren't going to give you the power to defeat the Umiak. And given the Umiak xenophobia, any space activities are going to be closely monitored...that being one of the biggest of the restrictions I was thinking of.

Empires fall. This is an inevitability.

For human empires, surrounded by other human civilizations. Some of those have lasted for very long periods of time, and the same dynamics can not be assumed to apply to the Umiak. But even if it is true for them, and if they mysteriously vanish instead of breaking up into smaller powers that are still capable of maintaining their domination of their subject worlds...

Time erodes all things. As long as we're alive when the Umiak hit their decline, we can break free. Realisticly, it's possible for humanity to regain it's freedom without actually fighting at all. Of course, it's possible we all die before that. Altough I find it unlikely that we'd die out. Umiak don't seem to do genocide.

The Umiak use up worlds. If it doesn't happen very soon, by the time the empire has begun to crumble, our accessible resources will have been exhausted, our ecology severely damaged, the accessible worlds (should we manage to get back into space) being no better. And the Umiak *do* do genocide, though the humans didn't know about it at that point.

[junk]

i think we're all assuming that if we do join th Umiak that we'd automatically allow our selves to be slaves, the human race just isn't programed to allow that, in our entire history is their any point at which we allow our selves to be subjected by another power and there not be even a tiny bit of resistance? even in the face of the totally superior powers of the Umiak our government would probably still try for some sort of an accord where the Umiak hierarchy recognize the our government's sovereignty and our right to freedom ect. and even if they did come for us any way (im just gonna quote something from a WW2 based film here) they'd "have to march up White Hall, and even then we probably won't listen" but then thats just the British for you, we've never really done the whole "on your knees!!" thing, well unless the queen is going by but then its patriotism and such like

Historically the actual trend is slavery tolerant. People just like throwing nice banners about of justice liberty and freedom for all, but the truth is, the sheer majority of our historical societies have shown a drive towards stronger and stronger forms of slavery. Just compare Roman family slaves (typical example during kingdoms) to roman patriarchal slaves. Roman Collones were roman citizens who essentially had slavery status.

Feudal serfs have had many signs of being very close to slaves as well and one could drone on and on. Slavery is still extremely common today. And honestly as I've said before, the amount of longterm successful slave rebellions was extremely low. Same goes for serf rebellions and countless of others examples in society.

The issue is, that if it came to pushing stones, humanity would have almost no chance of resisting the Umiak in their current state.

It would be the Human-Minbarri war all over again.

[Solemn]

Okay, I had a completely different understanding of Captain Hamilton's line than it seems you guys do.

I thought that the words were more for the audience and for himself than for Alex, and that the way they applied to Alex had less to do with the specifics of his response than to the fact that he had one and stuck by it, and argued its case in front of an authority figure of legendary stature.

I thought that the statement that the mission isn't about taking the safe option was because some (relatively) safe option would involve something other than actively seeking out the combatants in order to bind our fate as a species to one side or the other based on poorly-sketched-out hearsay from frightened alien refugees and whatever extremely limited information will be available to the handful of people on the contact mission. I do not know what Alex's Earth Government might have considered the "safe" option, since based on the available information trying to sit by and play isolationist would get us killed and throwing in with whatever empire came knocking eventually when they inevitably expand the war to our territory would likely get us far worse terms than offering our services at the outset, but I'm sure there was some proposal or another that was considered safer for the species. I have no idea what such a plan could be, though. The scout corps might mess up and tie mankind to a sinking ship, but there's no reason to believe that whoever came to Sol later would be willing or able to listen to our diplomats' attempts to ally (rather than face extermination by the doubtless heavily armed hostile aliens), nor that such a party would be willing or able to protect us from the other side in either the short or long term even if they were to strike up an accord, and trying for some sort of mass exodus seems... unlikely to produce good results, especially since the human worlds that are already colonized and have been colonized for a number of years at this time are still very much dependent upon the homeworld for their survival. So, I have no idea what the "safe option" was, but I'd guessed the Scout Corps wasn't it, just the most rewarding option. I thought that maybe the safe option would be explained the next page or something.

I thought that this applied to Alex's dialogue because Alex was willing to risk arguing with Hamilton on the subject, and was able to use what little information they had at-hand to come to a snap decision when put on the spot. It's not that he chose an unsafe option, so much that if he were reluctant to take risks with his future he would likely have shown some hesitation or tried to figure out what answer Hamilton wanted--and good luck with that, Hamilton seems to have a decent pokerface. If Alex weren't a risk-taker he most DEFINITELY would NOT have managed to get two letters of recommendation AGAINST him, he would have gotten his letters of rec from people he knew were sure bets.

So I thought Hamilton's line was really mostly about explaining to the audience why he chose Alex, an inexperienced, goofy, and troublesome newbie, but one with a lot of potential; he's willing to take the risk for the reward, instead of playing it safe with a surer bet. I thought it was a way to show that he feels that Alex is something of a high-stakes risk, but that he's willing to take that risk, and that he considers such risks to be part of the nature of the job. Perhaps it's not even just this specific contact mission that makes Hamilton think that way, perhaps it's his mindset regarding the work of the Scout Corps in general.


So I didn't think that the "safe option" comment upon Alex defending choosing the Loroi had anything to do with how safe each faction was considered, but rather that Alex's willingness to make the choice at all when put on the spot like that showed that he had the guts and brains to stand and make a rational snap decision when EVERY possible choice is INHERENTLY unsafe.


And I do respect Alex's reasoning; based on the information he had at the time.

However, since that time there have been a few complications that might make Alex significantly more reluctant to choose the Loroi.

In the first place, taking a stance when your career is on the line is very different from doing that same thing when the matter at stake is nothing less than the future of your entire species. To Alex's everlasting credit he hasn't really choked yet; sure, the Mickey Mouse Club Song might not exactly be a stirring tenor rendition of "The Minstrel Boy," but it gets a pass from me. Still, he's going to be weighing his options much more carefully now that he's the ONLY person with that responsibility.

Secondly, Alex has learned that the Loroi look more or less exactly like us, but that far from stabilizing our interspecies relations, this presents some sort of unknown cultural problem. This unknown cultural problem is apparently quite severe, as Mozin claimed Alex amounts to "living proof" against the "lies the Loroi have been spreading for a thousand--". Which means that one of the people in the know stated that by his existence Alex presents a threat to Loroi at large, though the variety, scale, and importance of that threat remain unknown. The Barsam clearly believed this to be important, though whether the Loroi share this belief (the more important aspect of this problem) has yet to be revealed.

Thirdly, Alex has learned that the Loroi rely on their psionics a great deal, to such an extent that anything that can contest their mental powers represents an existential threat to the Loroi Union at large. This does not just apply to vessels resisting Farseers, but also to individuals resisting psychic interrogation, as they don't seem to have considered the possibility of failure on that front. "Let's try to put it behind us and pretend it never happened" lacks a certain elegance.

Fourthly, the Umiak Alex personally encountered seemed, despite his physical appearance, to be relatively diplomatic and reasonable. So to his knowledge, humanity might be able to make a solid deal with them, and the stories the Orgus told about them enslaving and using up worlds might just be the collective fears of refugees fleeing from a victor; not representative of how the Umiak would actually interact with a power that wanted to join them, merely an example of what happens to races subjugated by force and violence--an approach that, to Alex's knowledge, ends in genocide when the Loroi take it. So perhaps the Umiak can be dealt with without selling yourself into slavery after all.

Fifthly, since the Loroi rely on their psionics to such an extent, and since Alex knows that the Umiak have developed a technology or technique for subverting them, and Alex knows that the Loroi have been defending a stalemate for quite some time now... the available information makes it seem like the Loroi'll end up losing. (This is presumably to build up dramatic tension). Alex said, right in the opening monologue, that humanity needs to pick a winner. There are a number of examples throughout history of people joining up with sides and forces that they hated in order to avoid catching hell in the postwar era. Making a deal on your own terms with the Umiak is presumably much better than being forced into accepting the Umiak's deal, even IF the deal is effectively enslavement; there are many degrees and varieties of enslavement, and the Umiak may be willing to pay some very reasonable prices.

Sixthly, I believe that the genocidal reputation of the Loroi can no longer be pragmatically ignored the way it could before contact, and I'll tell you why. The second and third bits there, the part where humanity represents a clear long-term threat to Loroi interests? Those aren't things that the Loroi can be expected to just ignore. They already know that we're psi-invisible and they already know that we're mind-probe resistant and they already know that our physical appearance can be exploited by the Barsam to their own ends, and the Barsam will not hesitate to do so. The clearer it is to the Loroi that humanity represents a long-term threat to the Loroi, the more likely they are to wipe us out EVEN IF we remain neutral or became allies during the war against the Umiak. The Loroi spent decades disregarding the long-term existential threat posed by the Umiak, a race with no significant psionic traits whatsoever; they have likely decided to be a bit more proactive when dealing with long-term threats, at least under the proactive Emperor Graywind and her proactive anti-neutrality decree. The Loroi cannot allow humanity to grow and develop as an independent power; to do so presents an unconscionable risk and little apparent benefit. We do not pose any such existential threat to the Umiak, and so the Umiak are less likely to feel a need to wipe us out post-war as a matter of course. Humanity, with its scary mental power immunity, is obviously a very special case to the Loroi, and thus would warrant some very special, very close attention in the postwar era should they win--but to the Umiak we would just be another technologically primitive client race without scary mental powers, who just so happen to coincidentally and accidentally look like an old archnemesis. It is possible that if we make a deal with the Loroi, it might actually be more oppressive than the terms of a similar agreement with the Umiak, to whom we will be of no particular interest after the matter of the Loroi is settled. It essentially doesn't matter anymore how the Loroi usually treat allied races; humanity can no longer expect to follow a similar pattern, since we so radically break the pattern of what Loroi-allied races themselves are like. We present no such blindingly obvious postwar quandry to the Umiak, and could leverage our marginal utility against the Loroi in this specific war to our advantage when negotiating with them.

So, at the time that Alex spoke to Hamilton and based on the information he had available at the time I think the Loroi were the clear, rational, and logical choice. And I'm not actually in favor of humanity going to the Umiak side as it stands; looking like you're winning or losing a war in the first chapter of a story doesn't really mean all that much regarding how the last chapter's going to end. But I think the argument is significantly more complicated than it was when Alex and Hamilton talked about it. It seems to me that a fairly large number of reasons to favor the Umiak have come up since then, and only a comparatively small number of reasons to favor the Loroi (Stillstorm's fleet having demonstrated clear tactical superiority over a numerically larger Umiak force, human psionic immunity giving us some possible long-term advantages against the Loroi not present against the Umiak should we need to fight the winner a few centuries later [though that really cuts both ways], Loroi physical similarity to humans [another double-edged sword], Beryl's adorable smile). So Alex might be questioning his initial assessment now. It probably started out seeming like an almost 50-50 choice, with only a few reasons to favor the Loroi, and I don't think it's gotten any easier since then.

[Arioch]

I thought that the words were more for the audience and for himself than for Alex, and that the way they applied to Alex had less to do with the specifics of his response than to the fact that he had one and stuck by it, and argued its case in front of an authority figure of legendary stature. I thought that the statement that the mission isn't about taking the safe option was because some (relatively) safe option would involve something other than actively seeking out the combatants in order to bind our fate as a species to one side or the other based on poorly-sketched-out hearsay from frightened alien refugees and whatever extremely limited information will be available to the handful of people on the contact mission.

I thought so too.

[Trantor]

Whoa, nice analysis!

Alex said, right in the opening monologue, that humanity needs to pick a winner. There are a number of examples throughout history of people joining up with sides and forces that they hated in order to avoid catching hell in the postwar era. Making a deal on your own terms with the Umiak is presumably much better than being forced into accepting the Umiak's deal, even IF the deal is effectively enslavement; there are many degrees and varieties of enslavement, and the Umiak may be willing to pay some very reasonable prices.

...but maybe only as long as the war with the Loroi catches their whole attention.

Sixthly, I believe that the genocidal reputation of the Loroi can no longer be pragmatically ignored the way it could before contact, and I'll tell you why. The second and third bits there, the part where humanity represents a clear long-term threat to Loroi interests? Those aren't things that the Loroi can be expected to just ignore. They already know that we're psi-invisible and they already know that we're mind-probe resistant and they already know that our physical appearance can be exploited by the Barsam to their own ends, and the Barsam will not hesitate to do so. The clearer it is to the Loroi that humanity represents a long-term threat to the Loroi, the more likely they are to wipe us out EVEN IF we remain neutral or became allies during the war against the Umiak.
...
The Loroi cannot allow humanity to grow and develop as an independent power; to do so presents an unconscionable risk and little apparent benefit.

That´s for todays constellation.

But how about a bled-out weak post-war Loroi society, with say eg at least the Barsam falling apart from the alliance and bonding with us.
Additionally supported by the Historians, who have NO interest in getting the Loroi too strong again?

We do not pose any such existential threat to the Umiak, and so the Umiak are less likely to feel a need to wipe us out post-war as a matter of course.

But they still will have us on our knees.

Humanity, with its scary mental power immunity, is obviously a very special case to the Loroi, and thus would warrant some very special, very close attention in the postwar era should they win

That´s for sure.

but to the Umiak we would just be another technologically primitive client race without scary mental powers, who just so happen to coincidentally and accidentally look like an old archnemesis.

Which IMHO still means slavery.

It is possible that if we make a deal with the Loroi, it might actually be more oppressive than the terms of a similar agreement with the Umiak

At this time they are in no position to do so. (imho).

It essentially doesn't matter anymore how the Loroi usually treat allied races; humanity can no longer expect to follow a similar pattern, since we so radically break the pattern of what Loroi-allied races themselves are like.

That´s a good point; i agree.

We present no such blindingly obvious postwar quandry to the Umiak, and could leverage our marginal utility against the Loroi in this specific war to our advantage when negotiating with them.

Hehehe. Macchiavelli speaking. But will the Ants really be grateful? And still be after the war?

So, at the time that Alex spoke to Hamilton and based on the information he had available at the time I think the Loroi were the clear, rational, and logical choice. And I'm not actually in favor of humanity going to the Umiak side as it stands; looking like you're winning or losing a war in the first chapter of a story doesn't really mean all that much regarding how the last chapter's going to end. But I think the argument is significantly more complicated than it was when Alex and Hamilton talked about it. It seems to me that a fairly large number of reasons to favor the Umiak have come up since then, and only a comparatively small number of reasons to favor the Loroi

As for those two, i´m quite with you.
But there are other players on the field: To me most important Barsam, who - in my opinion - would intervene if Loroi try to glass us; and the Historians with their technology.

It probably started out seeming like an almost 50-50 choice, with only a few reasons to favor the Loroi, and I don't think it's gotten any easier since then.

That´s for sure.

Again: Thanks for the Input. Good job!

[TrashMan]

We'd be operating under restrictions, but the Umiak don't have to know everything we're up to. Neither can they.

Wouldn´t bet on that one.

They know ever crevice of our planet better than us? They can read minnds?
no?
Then they can't.
Unless they shadow every human on the planet..which would require a rediocolous occpational force and be horribly inefficient use of resources.

Hife a few secret reearch bases in deep underground bunkers.

That sounds soo easy.
But even aside technical aspects: ONE spy, and everything is toast.

Cells my dear boy. Cells. Only one cell would ever be lost.
But who would spy for the Umiak in the first place? They sure as hell can't infliltrate themselves.

Empires fall. This is an inevitability. Time erodes all things.

Question is, how long does it take?
Second question: Will we be still the same after aeons?

Who said aeons would be necessary? The Umiak may hit a big snag or decline in 2 years...or 2 hunderd.

[TrashMan]

The whole point is that the choice SHOULDN'T be simple.

We know Alex will stick with the Loroi - after all, what Umiak characters have been shown so far? Do they have their own fan art? GRUPS tables? Loroi are both more visually appealing and have more presence, so it's 99,99% sure they will be the right choice.

After all "Alex and hot blue space elves" souns a lot more appealing than "Alex and the space bugs".

[discord]

trashman: to be honest, the umiak would probably send their junior counter intelligence guys over to our space for PRACTICE against the pathetically stupid apes that somehow think that they can win a insurgency campaign against them....and if the fore mentioned apes become too successful to make it a actual bother, in the immortal words of palpatine, 'Wipe them out, all of them.'

you CAN NOT win against an enemy that controls your orbitals AND is prepared to commit genocide, period fucking dot. the best you could hope for is one of several libraries of the true history of mankind will survive long enough and intact enough so that if the umiak regime either self implodes or runs into a bigger and meaner enemy that just happens to be nice(yeah right, fat chance) and that humanity will still be around to see it happen.

i reiterate, guerrilla warfare on a interplanetary level will not work in a realistic setting.....perhaps in a setting like star wars, which does have super tech and HUGE empires, too much space to hide in, but not a remotely realistic setting.

[Ktrain]

We know Alex will stick with the Loroi - after all, what Umiak characters have been shown so far? Do they have their own fan art?...

Eh hem.

[TrashMan]

trashman: to be honest, the umiak would probably send their junior counter intelligence guys over to our space for PRACTICE against the pathetically stupid apes that somehow think that they can win a insurgency campaign against them....and if the fore mentioned apes become too successful to make it a actual bother, in the immortal words of palpatine, 'Wipe them out, all of them.'

Like the counter intelligence guys could do anything. First of all,they stick out like a sore thumb, so they infiltrating you is a no-go.
Secondly, you don't fight them till the moment is right. What you do is prepare - by stockpiling weapons, moving people to right positions, researching Umiak weaknesses, making contact with other potential resistance to Umiak and so forth.

If humantiy lone tried to break free? Chances of sucess ar near zero. But if the Umiak suffer a empire-wide reblelion, as several worlds raise up in a planned and organized resistance, just when their main fleet is heavily engaged with the Loroi?
Chaos. Big enough chaos to turn the tide of war.

Whichever side you choose, you should be ready to fight agaist it should they prove the wrong choice.

[Trantor]

We'd be operating under restrictions, but the Umiak don't have to know everything we're up to. Neither can they.

Wouldn´t bet on that one.

They know ever crevice of our planet better than us? They can read minnds?

They can raid whenever they want. They can scan deep for caves. They can monitor energyflow. They can control important materials and their whereabouts. And so on.

Cells my dear boy. Cells. Only one cell would ever be lost.

A cell? And that "cell" isn´t raising any further suspicion?
Also: What can a "cell" do? I thought we were talking about stockpiling intergalactical dreadnoughts in huge caves?

No? How do you fight a force in your system without ships?

But who would spy for the Umiak in the first place?

Huh. Look at all the weirdos out there.
Or they MAKE some of us to do so.

Empires fall. This is an inevitability. Time erodes all things. Who said aeons would be necessary? The Umiak may hit a big snag or decline in 2 years...or 2 hunderd.

Or 2 thousand, or twohundredthousand, or...

Nah, doesn´t work for me.

...making contact with other potential resistance to Umiak and so forth.

How? The Umiak will control the flow of information.
Maybe they set up a trap to prove us. And then?

If humantiy lone tried to break free? Chances of sucess ar near zero.

Yep.

But if the Umiak suffer a empire-wide reblelion, as several worlds raise up in a planned and organized resistance, just when their main fleet is heavily engaged with the Loroi?

How do you do that, when the Umiak are in control?

Chaos. Big enough chaos to turn the tide of war.

Wouldn´t bet on that one.
Also: Without ships?

Whichever side you choose, you should be ready to fight agaist it should they prove the wrong choice.

That´s true. And chances for this are better with the Loroi, as the Barsam already saw us.

[Michael]

After all "Alex and hot blue space elves" souns a lot more appealing than "Alex and the space bugs".

again, where is the like button?!?!!

i reiterate, guerrilla warfare on a interplanetary level will not work in a realistic setting.....perhaps in a setting like star wars, which does have super tech and HUGE empires, too much space to hide in, but not a remotely realistic setting.

actually its still a bit like star wars, there are still huge empires in this story and big areas of space to hide in, what you have to remember is that the distance between earth and the sun is ~149, 597, 870.7 Km which is also called an AU (astronomical unit), that is a HUGE area to search, now the distance from earth to Pluto is between 4,644 million miles and 2,660 million miles, how hard is that going to be to search? you'd need several hundred committed ships constantly patrolling and support vessels and bases, is this going to cost a hell of a lot? yes it would, will you pay for all that when your in the middle of a war? i won't.

...making contact with other potential resistance to Umiak and so forth.

How? The Umiak will control the flow of information.

true, but they can't control all information and we will probably have some freedom of movement in Umiak empire.

But if the Umiak suffer a empire-wide reblelion, as several worlds raise up in a planned and organized resistance, just when their main fleet is heavily engaged with the Loroi?

How do you do that, when the Umiak are in control?

the Nazis were in control, French and Russian and many other resistance forces still worked.

Chaos. Big enough chaos to turn the tide of war.

Wouldn´t bet on that one.
Also: Without ships?.

i assume the Umiak have a ship breaking yard of some kind? or a ship graveyard? if we have some other races on side then it should be quite easy to get to them and repair them, then jump to some far out system, may be even take the Umiak ships to the Loroi, even if they are old ships they will give a huge amount of info on their fleets.

Also: i think you should rethink your bet, the Umiak can't have a fleet big enough to stop a real insurgent strike in multiple systems, as iv stated controlling a single star system is going to be hard, holding multiple star system with multiple habited planets will be harder still.
Now im not sure how many ships the umiak have on the line as it were, but it can be assumed the Umiak have a token force holding the planets they conquer and larger, nodal forces for squashing rebellions so they can put the most ships in to the war

[Mjolnir]

actually its still a bit like star wars, there are still huge empires in this story and big areas of space to hide in, what you have to remember is that the distance between earth and the sun is ~149, 597, 870.7 Km which is also called an AU (astronomical unit), that is a HUGE area to search, now the distance from earth to Pluto is between 4,644 million miles and 2,660 million miles, how hard is that going to be to search? you'd need several hundred committed ships constantly patrolling and support vessels and bases, is this going to cost a hell of a lot? yes it would, will you pay for all that when your in the middle of a war? i won't.

It's empty space, exceptionally clean vacuum with a 2.7 K thermal background. You don't need a fleet of patrol ships, a handful of monitor satellites could track every single ship moving through the system.

true, but they can't control all information and we will probably have some freedom of movement in Umiak empire.

Yes, they can, quite trivially...there is no FTL communication except for starships, and lightspeed communications will be decades out of date by the time they are heard. And given the Umiak attitude toward other species, we probably won't have any freedom of movement, specifically because they do not want us to ever be a threat. At best, strictly limited and supervised interstellar for a trusted few, at worst, even orbital satellites will be forbidden.

the Nazis were in control, French and Russian and many other resistance forces still worked.

The Nazis had nothing like the control the Umiak would be able to achieve.

i assume the Umiak have a ship breaking yard of some kind? or a ship graveyard? if we have some other races on side then it should be quite easy to get to them and repair them, then jump to some far out system, may be even take the Umiak ships to the Loroi, even if they are old ships they will give a huge amount of info on their fleets.

How exactly do you take an Umiak shipyard containing Umiak warships without a fleet of warships to start with? How do you even get to said shipyard, and get the codes and such needed to control a ship even if you capture one? And given your inability to communicate with or get material support from other subject worlds, how will they help?

Also: i think you should rethink your bet, the Umiak can't have a fleet big enough to stop a real insurgent strike in multiple systems, as iv stated controlling a single star system is going to be hard, holding multiple star system with multiple habited planets will be harder still.
Now im not sure how many ships the umiak have on the line as it were, but it can be assumed the Umiak have a token force holding the planets they conquer and larger, nodal forces for squashing rebellions so they can put the most ships in to the war

Holding a system when you control space travel is easy. The Umiak could stop an insurgent action with a single small ship...just blow up cities they're active in until the natives start policing themselves. If it ends in the Umiak repopulating the world themselves, so be it.

[bunnyboy]

i reiterate, guerrilla warfare on a interplanetary level will not work in a realistic setting

what you have to remember is that the distance between earth and the sun is ~149, 597, 870.7 Km which is also called an AU (astronomical unit), that is a HUGE area to search, now the distance from earth to Pluto is between 4,644 million miles and 2,660 million miles, how hard is that going to be to search?

As Mjolnir said, the space is mostly empty. There aren't anything to sustain the ships, so Umiak need only to close the access for habitable planets. And their ships are faster than ours and most economical known ships, so we lose either racing or waiting.

...making contact with other potential resistance to Umiak and so forth.

How? The Umiak will control the flow of information.

true, but they can't control all information and we will probably have some freedom of movement in Umiak empire.

But if the Umiak suffer a empire-wide reblelion

How do you do that, when the Umiak are in control?

the Nazis were in control, French and Russian and many other resistance forces still worked.

So, are you planning to knockout an umiak guard, take his uniform and weapon, nonchalantly go inside on their ship and take anyone inside by surpside?
Then go on another umiak occupied planet, contact the local slaves and recruit them to rebellion while keeping it secret from umiaks?

i assume the Umiak have a ship breaking yard of some kind? or a ship graveyard? if we have some other races on side then it should be quite easy to get to them and repair them, then jump to some far out system, may be even take the Umiak ships to the Loroi, even if they are old ships they will give a huge amount of info on their fleets.

Now, what make think that why we could make any use of ships that umiaks themselves have discarded for being nonusable? Every umiak ship is unique, it's builders are staying on it for life and i don't doubt that umiak will cannibalize every doomed ship (with it's crew). And you are very optimistic, if you think that we loroi take us happily and don't shoot us to cinders, if we try drive an umiak warship on their yard.

[Michael]

basically in my opinion i don't think we can always assume the Umiak always have the upper hand, there must be leeway in places, the Umiak must let us have some automation over our selves and we must be able to move in and out of our solar system to do work for the umiak, since no system is perfect and the law of averages says it'll go wrong for the Umiak somewhere, we'll get a chance to something.
im not sure what form that could take since we have no hypothetical situation here, we also don't know how the umiaks slaves interact with them, in fact all we do know is this: anyone with the Umiak are slaves. (correct me if im wrong there pleas)

everything seems (am i being polite there or do i really mean seems? ) to be just speculation, so i was just wondering if Arioch had any back ground info he's willing to share on this subject? or do we have to wait till Alex get captured by the Umiak to learn more about them?
Cos i think i like watching and occasionally joining in the arguing and waiting to see who was right when you reveal it in the story

[Mjolnir]

basically in my opinion i don't think we can always assume the Umiak always have the upper hand, there must be leeway in places, the Umiak must let us have some automation over our selves and we must be able to move in and out of our solar system to do work for the umiak, since no system is perfect and the law of averages says it'll go wrong for the Umiak somewhere, we'll get a chance to something.

It's "autonomy"...and why must we assume the Umiak would let us keep interstellar travel? How does this "law of averages" say the Umiak must allow us the capability to overthrow their rule? They don't need to and they have excellent reasons not to do so. If a ship can be built it can be built for an Umiak crew, and Umiak control of the shipyards can ensure that no other ships are built. There's no shortage of Umiak personnel to run transport ships...they mass produce personnel as required. Their view of other species generally tends toward "potential threat if not under Umiak control". So why would they let us have star travel? They don't care how we govern ourselves on our planets, but that doesn't mean they'll let us build ships we can use against them...because we might use those ships against them!

im not sure what form that could take since we have no hypothetical situation here, we also don't know how the umiaks slaves interact with them, in fact all we do know is this: anyone with the Umiak are slaves. (correct me if im wrong there pleas)

The hypothetical situation is "humanity is a subject species of the Umiak".

The lack of information about what goes on inside Umiak space should be a clue about how much control the Umiak maintain over interstellar travel...what we've got are refugees who ran before their worlds were conquered, who themselves heard little from inside Umiak space before that. Outside of the comic there's not much more information...from past discussions, they don't care much how we govern ourselves, as long as we're ultimately under Umiak control and not a potential threat. This would be quite easy to guarantee by control of space travel...a tiny space force could completely dominate a planet that lacks independent space travel. Nobody's ever going to commandeer a ship in orbit if they can't get off the ground. And even if they could somehow get a modern, heavily armed ship...the Umiak are capable of wiping out the planet's industry and decimating its population if they cause trouble. If given the choice between a resettlement operation with Umiak colonists and letting a world break away as a hostile state, what do you really think the Umiak will choose?

[discord]

michael: what you are consistently missing is a few details, #1 being 'there is no stealth in space' and #2 'there is no FTL communication', combine that with #3 'client states shall have no interstellar capacity', and you are pretty much screwed, why you ask?

because if we can not hold our orbitals and meet them outside them(and stop the hostiles there) a tow ship, the puny thing designed to tow larger ships into and out of docking could effectively wipe out a planets inhabitants in a matter of days, maybe a few weeks, not a war ship, not a planet killer, a simple civilian tug boat, every reasonable spaceship ever designed is effectively a weapon of mass destruction all on it's own.
you could try to LAUNCH a fleet from planet side and attack a fleet in orbit....the term 'sitting duck' comes to mind, or 'fish in a barrel', bad idea.

but we are talking insurrection here, so lets assume we manage to wipe out the local patrol fleet, they WILL have a courier on standby if some information needs to be sent NOW, like for instance an insurrection is occurring, but lets assume that we get that too....and that we disable the planetary defense system before it gets turned on us, within a few months the umiak will notice and send a task force to deal with the problem, and since we can not possibly build enough ships to stop them within that time frame, we die.
actually the ONLY possibility to manage that is to #1 do it while the umiak is in a heavy war(how we would know that is a minor miracle in itself, but lets assume that) and that we quickly run over to them using the CAPTURED(bloody unlikely) courier boat and get them to set up a base of operations at our place... assuming they believe us to begin with...the chance of successful insurrection is about 1000001 to one, since a million to one happens 9 times out of ten.
we MIGHT be able to have a small colony fleet ready to run when the system is clear, that could perhaps improve the odds to something slightly more sensible, like a thousand to one at best, still not good.

bottom line, without control of the orbitals, you are screwed.

[Nemo]

... When I think human rebellion against Umiak I think of Geronimo fending off the white man. Sure, he knows the hills better. Sure he and his people are at least as smart. Why, you can even give'm the same tools, the same guns, as those they face. Still doomed though.


That said, you would have difficulty selling me on the concept of the Umiak as an Infinite Empire. They will collapse for some reason at some time. Assuming that, "make sure you live to see that day" isn't a stretch of a goal. And unless they veer into scenery munching villainy or are forced into a scorched earth retreat I don't see them exterminating slaves out of spite, either.

[Mjolnir]

That said, you would have difficulty selling me on the concept of the Umiak as an Infinite Empire. They will collapse for some reason at some time. Assuming that, "make sure you live to see that day" isn't a stretch of a goal.

That doesn't seem to be their style, no. But it could be...say they have some expensive incidents with planets ending up needing to be bombarded and the planet resettled with Umiak, or someone manages to cobble together a FTL ship and attempts to get a message to the outside or strike at an Umiak facility...they may decide to play it safe by repopulating the rest of the worlds with Umiak. If they do it carefully, they might get it done with far less damage to infrastructure than there'd be with them putting down an insurrection. Or the empire breaks up messily, and these worlds either end up getting burned in the civil wars or just end up with Umiak masters of a different faction.

And unless they veer into scenery munching villainy or are forced into a scorched earth retreat I don't see them exterminating slaves out of spite, either.

They might not leave you with much to conduct a space program with, though.

[Nathan_]

After all "Alex and hot blue space elves" souns a lot more appealing than "Alex and the space bugs".

Cmon Bro Patriarchy Bugs.