Page 93

[Michael]

...(thinking)...ok i'd lose if i was in command of earth's defenses, but id still rather have the blue space elves.

[TrashMan]

Well, apparenly resistance against Umiak is very much possible - didn't the Loroi inflict so much loses on the Umiak that they bombed the planet?

Which clearly means that planet-side, you can hide a lot of things.

Now, I don't recall reading in the Insider that Umiak do not allow any space-faring capability for client races. The Umiak may be harder on theoir client races (as in, more demanding), but I doubt it's so restrictive that the client races can't do anything at all. That's woefully inefficient.

And this brings us back to the previous question - if we can't break away or resist the Umiak, then we can't break away or resist the Loroi either.

[discord]

trashman: sure, you can RESIST on a planetary level, and do it well, the problem is you can't WIN as long as the enemy holds the orbitals.

[fredgiblet]

if we can't break away or resist the Umiak, then we can't break away or resist the Loroi either.

Everything we've seen/heard says that there's less reason to do so.

[Michael]

i suppose its more of a question of who would you want to resist, than who can you resist

[Mjolnir]

Well, apparenly resistance against Umiak is very much possible - didn't the Loroi inflict so much loses on the Umiak that they bombed the planet?

Does this really sound like a successful insurrection to you?

This was a recently-captured planet near hostile territory with long support lines, and the main thing the resistance accomplished was making the Umiak decide destruction was more worthwhile than trying to get the natives to cooperate. The resistance never drove the Umiak away, it instead provoked a punitive response. The events at Seren in fact illustrate my point quite well.

Which clearly means that planet-side, you can hide a lot of things.

No, it means that if you keep attacking Umiak targets on your Umiak-occupied planet, they'll eventually get fed up and blow you up.

Now, I don't recall reading in the Insider that Umiak do not allow any space-faring capability for client races. The Umiak may be harder on theoir client races (as in, more demanding), but I doubt it's so restrictive that the client races can't do anything at all. That's woefully inefficient.

It's not inefficient at all, and having as much in Umiak hands as possible is in fact likely to be more efficient, with less trouble with things being lost in translation or otherwise poorly communicated, less work needed to support multiple species, etc. If a ship can be built, it can be built to be piloted by Umiak. The Umiak certainly would not have a problem supplying personnel for rarely-lost transports. Forbidding interstellar travel gives them complete control over communications between the worlds and lets them prevent anyone from running to the enemy with valuable information or otherwise conspiring against them, as well as simplifying and streamlining operations. There are benefits in both efficiency and security, things the Umiak seem to value greatly.

And this brings us back to the previous question - if we can't break away or resist the Umiak, then we can't break away or resist the Loroi either.

The Loroi aren't the ones who make a habit of enslaving every species they encounter. We might not need to break away from them.

[TrashMan]

Which clearly means that planet-side, you can hide a lot of things.

No, it means that if you keep attacking Umiak targets on your Umiak-occupied planet, they'll eventually get fed up and blow you up.

And you can't sucesfully lead a large-scale resistance without being able to hide and organize. Ergo, you can hide a lot of things.

Heck, you could hide a whole fleet of warships beneath the sands of the sahara desert, and the Umiak would never know.

And this brings us back to the previous question - if we can't break away or resist the Umiak, then we can't break away or resist the Loroi either.

The Loroi aren't the ones who make a habit of enslaving every species they encounter. We might not need to break away from them.

Then there really is no greyness in the scenario, now is it?
If the Loroi are so cleary the better choice...

[Trantor]

Heck, you could hide a whole fleet of warships beneath the sands of the sahara desert, and the Umiak would never know.

Forget it. Even our todays primitive satellites are able to detect tiny anomalies. Imagine what the Umiak are able to.

And again: ONE spy, and everything is toast.

Then there really is no greyness in the scenario, now is it?
If the Loroi are so cleary the better choice...

In the long run, for sure. Think of future constellations.

[bunnyboy]

And again: ONE spy, and everything is toast.

Worse. One KLUTZ, LAZY or WRONGLY SAVED PENNY, and everything is toast.

[LegioCI]

I don't think we'd need insurrection. Not immediately anyway.

The first step I'd take is to spread Humanity out into as many places as possible. Diaspora is the word we're looking for, the farther we're spread out, the harder it is to conquer us. This goes beyond just colonizing planets in other systems, we need to look at asteroids, comets, moons.

Hell, survey the skies look for Brown Dwarfs, they're small, dim and very very numerous. Probably hundreds or even thousands of them around humanity's territory. Since they're so small they're also very hard targets to jump to, making it incredibly expensive and dangerous for an occupying race to check all of them. And, with a few years prior notice, we could use snaildrives to get to a hell of a lot of them and set up colonies. (Keep in mind that the Umiak and Loroi have literally known about us for less than a day at this point, if we were properly paranoid it could take years for us to reveal to a potential ally where we are actually located.) Once we have a colony at a brown dwarf it'll probably have everything a colony needs to stay self-sufficient; planets and captured asteroids to mine, plenty of thermal energy from the dwarf itself.

Now that we're spread over a few hundred colonies in places that are incredibly difficult to detect and destroy all we need to do is bide our time. We already know that we are developing technology at an accelerated rate compared to the Loroi (And likely the Umiak as well.) so as long as we're hidden we should exploit this, using contacts within occupied systems (Who will be the model of an oppressed, beaten people.) to get ahold of technology, study tactics and numbers and other things. Eventually, as our technology comes to be on par with the occupiers we start launching raids and fighting back. Whoever we're fighting with can't risk too much in the way of man and material, since they're currently fighting a total war, which means it falls to the few ships they do spare to both defend against raids and search thousands of nearly invisible balls of slightly warm gas floating around in interstellar space.

It would be a nightmare for any occupier, and from that we could potentially sue for our independence, if only to remove an annoying thorn in the occupying race's side and allowing them to use those ships to better use elsewhere. (Which is ultimately the point of an insurgency like this. You can't completely destroy us without using so many resources that it's not worth it, so why don't you leave us alone and find something more productive to do with your fleet.)

[Trantor]

The first step I'd take is to spread Humanity out into as many places as possible.

In terms of pure survival of the race, this is not a bad idea. Comes with a lot of disadvantages, but there´s a chance that someone will survive.

Diaspora is the word we're looking for, the farther we're spread out, the harder it is to conquer us.

You mean "annihilate".

This goes beyond just colonizing planets in other systems, we need to look at asteroids, comets, moons.

No good idea, because not very habitable. And that means constant maintenance for the tech we´re depended upon.

Hell, survey the skies look for Brown Dwarfs, they're small, dim and very very numerous. Probably hundreds or even thousands of them around humanity's territory.

Maybe only dozens. Which would render your plan already useless.

Since they're so small they're also very hard targets to jump to, making it incredibly expensive and dangerous for an occupying race to check all of them.

see above.

if we were properly paranoid it could take years for us to reveal to a potential ally where we are actually located.)

Wouldn´t bet on that one.

Once we have a colony at a brown dwarf it'll probably have everything a colony needs to stay self-sufficient; planets and captured asteroids to mine, plenty of thermal energy from the dwarf itself.

Which still would mean a ship or station orbiting the dwarf in the habitable zone as we pretty much can´t expect a planetary body in this zone. Brown dwarf´s HZs are way narrower than our sun´s HZ.
And then comes that "stealth in space"-issue again. Attacking an orbiting station is like shooting a fish in a barrel.

Now that we're spread over a few hundred colonies in places that are incredibly difficult to detect and destroy all we need to do is bide our time.

Maybe with todays tech. Not so sure about tomorrows tech.

Also: How much time?
There´s a social problem, too. A society in fear of everydays possible extinction will form pretty defunct individuals and structures. You sure that we can bear this AND develop future levels of tech like a prospering free society?

We already know that we are developing technology at an accelerated rate compared to the Loroi (And likely the Umiak as well.)

Here on Earth, where we´re all together (and not scattered throughout space) in relative peace in a pretty habitable environment.

so as long as we're hidden we should exploit this, using contacts within occupied systems

Undetected from the Umiak?

to get ahold of technology, study tactics and numbers and other things.

I´d say no way.
To bring up the first point again: Diaspora ONLY MAYBE assures the survival of a small fraction of us. Not continuation of our life as we knew it.

Eventually, as our technology comes to be on par with the occupiers we start launching raids and fighting back.

Undetected until then? Again: There´s no thing like stealth in space. And i´m pretty sure we´re going nowhere with progress, as necessary maintenance eats up all time even to just stay alive. Aside from all the other problems.

Whoever we're fighting with can't risk too much in the way of man and material, since they're currently fighting a total war,

Currently, yes. But how about say 100 years later. Which would be the time we need to catch up in tech. Details like social- and habitat-issues aside?

which means it falls to the few ships they do spare to both defend against raids and search thousands of nearly invisible balls of slightly warm gas floating around in interstellar space.

See above. The Loroi are about to founder to an enemy with incredible industrial potential. I wouldn´t bet on small numbers.

It would be a nightmare for any occupier, and from that we could potentially sue for our independence, if only to remove an annoying thorn in the occupying race's side and allowing them to use those ships to better use elsewhere.

No way.
And what use elsewhere if they already won the war?

(Which is ultimately the point of an insurgency like this. You can't completely destroy us without using so many resources that it's not worth it, so why don't you leave us alone and find something more productive to do with your fleet.)

Nah. This doesn´t work.
They´ll be laughing at us.
Then push the red buttons.

[Mjolnir]

The first step I'd take is to spread Humanity out into as many places as possible. Diaspora is the word we're looking for, the farther we're spread out, the harder it is to conquer us. This goes beyond just colonizing planets in other systems, we need to look at asteroids, comets, moons.

As Trantor said, it only makes it harder to wipe us out. That's not really a major danger anyway, we're far more likely to end up like the Tithric...destroyed as a civilization and irrelevant to the ongoing war. Still, it could allow us to retain a technological civilization while being considered a minor enough threat to avoid harassment from either side in the war, and even if we're scattered across stations in plain sight within the same system, it'll make us harder to eliminate than if we were stuck on a planet.

And, with a few years prior notice, we could use snaildrives to get to a hell of a lot of them and set up colonies. (Keep in mind that the Umiak and Loroi have literally known about us for less than a day at this point, if we were properly paranoid it could take years for us to reveal to a potential ally where we are actually located.)

This doesn't really work. These ship drives are likely detectable at interstellar distances, and there's plenty of vantage points at which the enemy could watch for drives that were running years before. Plus, both Umiak and Loroi are almost certainly better than us at finding and getting to brown dwarfs, having looked into establishing such outposts themselves and into locating and destroying any that the other side is setting up, to keep a fleet from popping up in an area of space they'd thought secured. Your best protection is being hard to reach and of minor enough threat that it isn't worth pursuing you.

Now that we're spread over a few hundred colonies in places that are incredibly difficult to detect and destroy all we need to do is bide our time. We already know that we are developing technology at an accelerated rate compared to the Loroi (And likely the Umiak as well.) so as long as we're hidden we should exploit this, using contacts within occupied systems (Who will be the model of an oppressed, beaten people.) to get ahold of technology, study tactics and numbers and other things. Eventually, as our technology comes to be on par with the occupiers we start launching raids and fighting back. Whoever we're fighting with can't risk too much in the way of man and material, since they're currently fighting a total war, which means it falls to the few ships they do spare to both defend against raids and search thousands of nearly invisible balls of slightly warm gas floating around in interstellar space.

Our historical rate of progress has been high compared with the historical rate of Loroi progress. With a tiny fraction of the population left (meaning fewer minds to look at problems), and limited facilities scattered thinly across space, and the Loroi in an arms race with the Umiak, I do not think you can expect humanity to make much progress at catching up technologically.

As for occupied systems, contact with them will immediately point out the locations of those hidden bases. And if done via sublight, will take decades for each trip.

[TrashMan]

Heck, you could hide a whole fleet of warships beneath the sands of the sahara desert, and the Umiak would never know.

Forget it. Even our todays primitive satellites are able to detect tiny anomalies. Imagine what the Umiak are able to.

We are?
We don't know 90% of the ocean. We sure as hell don't know what's behind the sahara desert.

[Trantor]

Heck, you could hide a whole fleet of warships beneath the sands of the sahara desert, and the Umiak would never know.

Forget it. Even our todays primitive satellites are able to detect tiny anomalies. Imagine what the Umiak are able to.

We don't know 90% of the ocean.

You can´t store spaceships on the ground of the deep sea.

We sure as hell don't know what's behind the sahara desert.

You mean "beneath"?
You can´t go too deep into the ground, either. It´s a matter of cost, temperature, accessibility, corrosive environment etc...

So in both cases you stick relatively near to the surface, which makes your ships detectable.

[Mjolnir]

We are?

Yes, we are. Such a project would be obvious to today's sensors via disturbances in magnetic and gravitational fields, thermal and gas emissions, seismic activity, not to mention the piles of removed earth and stone and the supply lines of equipment and supplies. Access tunnels and the structures to allow an eventual launch will be visible to ground penetrating radar, the details of the structures will be plainly visible on seismic surveys. The idea that we could hide a shipyard under the Sahara is simply absurd.

We don't know 90% of the ocean. We sure as hell don't know what's behind the sahara desert.

http://www.gebco.net/data_and_products/gebco_world_map/

And we know what's under the Sahara better than most places...it's rich in oil, gas, and various minerals, and has been extensively surveyed, drilled, and mined. For an example of what instruments were able to see from orbit over a decade ago...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Safsa ... arison.jpg

More recent work: http://www2.cr.chiba-u.jp/mrsl/researchs.htm

[Paragon]

So in both cases you stick relatively near to the surface, which makes your ships detectable.

Not to mention that ships entering orbit would be unbelievably easy to detect. Hell, something as small as the space shuttle launching kills everything for miles around from the damn vibrations. Can you imagine what an even marginally combat effective force launching would look like? Any occupiers would be on you before you even left the atmosphere. And let's say you made it out and defeated the local garrison, what then? You couldn't beat these guys with the full might of the human military the first time, what's one emergency reserve that's been hiding in a desert going to do besides piss the Umiak off enough to glass a continent or two?

[TrashMan]

You can´t store spaceships on the ground of the deep sea.

Why not? They are designed to endure vaccum and battle conditions.
I don't think a speceship would leak if submerged.

[TrashMan]

We are?

Yes, we are. Such a project would be obvious to today's sensors via disturbances in magnetic and gravitational fields, thermal and gas emissions, seismic activity, not to mention the piles of removed earth and stone and the supply lines of equipment and supplies. Access tunnels and the structures to allow an eventual launch will be visible to ground penetrating radar, the details of the structures will be plainly visible on seismic surveys. The idea that we could hide a shipyard under the Sahara is simply absurd.

Then how come we don't know every inch of the deserts and oceans?
And what disturbances in graviational and magnetic fields? What gas emissions?
Radar penetrates the softer sand till it reaches harder sil. It doesn't go trough that.
Just like we can scan the ocean floor, but not beneath.

Not saiyng that it would be impossible to detect- because if you put a big enough amount of effort into something you will have some results - but why would it be practical? Why would anyone even do it as a standard practice? We don't...and you say we have the technolgoy for it.

Yes, if Umiak throw every effort imaginable int oscannign every inch of hte planet you won't be able to hide..But when has anyone, ever wasted that much time and effort?

We can theoreticly build a base on Mars right now. But we won't. We can theorethicly start building a Dyson Sphere (out of stations/sattelites), but we don't. Because it's simply not worth it.

"Can" does not equal "will"

[bunnyboy]

You can´t store spaceships on the ground of the deep sea.

Why not? They are designed to endure vaccum and battle conditions.
I don't think a speceship would leak if submerged.

Sorry. Spaceships are designed to keep the pressure inside and submarines outside.
You get full atmospheric pressure in 1 meter deep, so in theory you could try hide your spaceship in your swimming pool.

But it would be bossible to launch a small spacecraft from surfaced submarine.

[Mjolnir]

Why not? They are designed to endure vaccum and battle conditions.
I don't think a speceship would leak if submerged.

I don't think you could accurately describe the result as "leaking", no. "Crushed" works better. Spacecraft are not built to withstand hundreds of atmospheres of external pressure, they are built to withstand ~1 atmosphere of internal pressure. A spacecraft built to withstand deep immersion will have vastly greater structural mass than needed for spaceflight. And then there's the whole part about building a shipyard under the oceans...this just is not a project you can do cheaply and stealthily. You're talking about an enormous undertaking. It would be glaringly obvious if you got it constructed, but you wouldn't even get that far without the Umiak asking uncomfortable questions about the movements of material and large scale underwater excavation machinery to a supposedly-vacant ocean location rather than to Umiak pickup zones.

Then how come we don't know every inch of the deserts and oceans?

We do. And the depth and detail of that knowledge is constantly increasing.

And what disturbances in graviational and magnetic fields? What gas emissions?

Those from hollowing out multiple cubic kilometers of rock and putting huge metal objects, power plants, manufacturing plants, etc in the resulting cavities. You really think this won't be noticeable?

Radar penetrates the softer sand till it reaches harder sil. It doesn't go trough that.
Just like we can scan the ocean floor, but not beneath.

Radar has difficulty getting useful returns from rock within rock, but a vast hollow cavity filled with a fleet of spacecraft and giant sets of launching doors would be quite noticeable. And we can see deep beneath the ocean floor and into solid rock with seismometry, which I note you've completely ignored.

Not saiyng that it would be impossible to detect- because if you put a big enough amount of effort into something you will have some results - but why would it be practical? Why would anyone even do it as a standard practice? We don't...and you say we have the technolgoy for it.

Maybe...just as a random example...to prevent an occupied planet from building up a space warfare capability, perhaps? They not only can (it'll not only be possible to detect, it'd be near impossible to miss), they most certainly will. Your only reason for suggesting they wouldn't is that it makes your planned insurrection inconveniently impossible.