Page 98

[Grayhome]

And zoo animals...

[Solemn]

Wait a sec, has he bathed in this time?

... oh dear lord he must smell something awful.

Eh.

Human sweat and human skin waste are actually in and of themselves very nearly odorless; it is only after various natural skin wastes are metabolized by your skin flora that you get what we would normally identify as "body odor."

Skin flora are not essential to your health; to my knowledge, the best thing that the nicest species do is take up space and thus keep other species of skin flora off, and give your immune system a workout whenever you get a breach in your skin. That is to say, they occupy space, and sometimes they fight you and die. (The worst things ordinary and normal human skin flora species can do? Eat the cartilage off of your bones, infect and permanently damage your brain, infect and permanently damage your heart, y'know, the works. You really don't want a lot of this stuff getting beneath the epidermis. Hell, most of us don't want it on the epidermis).

A small scout ship, as a sealed environment with a limited population expected to be in close quarters with one another for a very long period of time, could potentially be sterilized of human skin flora. Not with soap or showering, mind you, that does nothing, but some pretty harsh decontamination procedures--likely using future tech in ways I cannot even guess at--could be expected to eliminate human skin flora, for everyone on the Bellarmine, for the entire duration of the mission.

In fact, it is conceivable that skin flora are eliminated on all ships for all human missions, which basically amounts to "only Earth-Humans experience body odor, acne, and various other grooming woes." So the TCA space colonists might have a "stinky Earthman" stereotype.

Alex might not need to shower. Not without the propionibacteria and various staph infestations and other bodily horrors that the TCA just might not want to bring with them everywhere they go.

They might also want to get rid of oral flora. Cavities, bad breath, and a number of other inconveniences might not really be much of a a worry for Alex.

These issues plus the potential danger of being pathogenic to some species that we'd just made diplomatic contact with?

And that's just considering the human side of the equation. Alex has been through a Loroi shipboard medical facility, and, limited though it might be, he's had cause enough to be impressed by their surgical abilities. Loroi medical decontamination might've eliminated his skin flora, and potentially any or all of the other parasitic, mutualistic, commensalistic etc. bacteria colonies feasting and excreting on the human body at all times; Alex has pretty clearly not had to deal with infected tissues of any kind.

The Loroi might also not need to shower. Even if the original Soia had malodorous body flora, the Loroi are (probably) a designer species created in and meant to inhabit controlled environments; they might not have any body flora at all, or have body flora that was itself engineered to be non-pathogenic and inoffensive, and their own natural skin excreta might, as with humans, be inoffensive without flora metabolizing it into various more pungent molecules. Undertaking that sort of genetic engineering project might be difficult, as you would essentially be creating an entirely new ecology, but it'd be a whole hell of a lot easier than bioengineering telepathy.

Should such predictions come to pass, we will surely see less of the boring solid-chocolate bars and more of the actually interesting ones that have other stuff mixed in.

Are you suggesting that the sky is in fact not falling? Sir, that goes against everything I've read in any news article since 1996.

[Absalom]

Absolute lies.
I have eaten 100% chocolate before, it was awesome. Admittedly, since I got about a 1.5 pound block, I didn't eat it all in one go. And, in fact, I did just whack chunks of it off and eat them on occasion. Though I have to admit that after a few chunks of pure chocolate, I experimented with using it as a topping, and found it did quite well. It went awesome with a double chocolate fudge ice cream with dark chocolate syrup.

In all honesty, I've started finding that a lot of milk chocolates are just too sugary and insufficiently chocolatey for my tastes.

I meant 'pure chocolate' a little less literally than that (I was referring to e.g. Hershey bars), but having tasted cocoa beans I am not impressed: any description other than 'bitter' is simply inaccurate. For common usage (ala candy bars) I recommend nothing above 70% (which is admittedly still a dark chocolate, rather than a milk or white). And bear in mind: I work in a health food store, I've tasted a fair amount of this stuff.

Seriously, though, I hauled a block of 100% along for Thanksgiving one time, in addition to some whipping cream (you can make your own whipped cream)

Marshmallows as well, though I haven't looked up how.

Skin flora are not essential to your health; to my knowledge, the best thing that the nicest species do is take up space and thus keep other species of skin flora off, and give your immune system a workout whenever you get a breach in your skin. That is to say, they occupy space, and sometimes they fight you and die. (The worst things ordinary and normal human skin flora species can do? Eat the cartilage off of your bones, infect and permanently damage your brain, infect and permanently damage your heart, y'know, the works. You really don't want a lot of this stuff getting beneath the epidermis. Hell, most of us don't want it on the epidermis).

But without it, something else would live there. Biological skin (human or otherwise) without skin flora is like aluminum without an oxidized layer: it'll have one pretty soon.

A small scout ship, as a sealed environment with a limited population expected to be in close quarters with one another for a very long period of time, could potentially be sterilized of human skin flora. Not with soap or showering, mind you, that does nothing, but some pretty harsh decontamination procedures--likely using future tech in ways I cannot even guess at--could be expected to eliminate human skin flora, for everyone on the Bellarmine, for the entire duration of the mission.

Bacteria are a common enough thing in the human body (some of them are even required for our bodies to correctly function) that you're going to get something living on your skin. The question is only what, and when it'll start living there.

In fact, it is conceivable that skin flora are eliminated on all ships for all human missions, which basically amounts to "only Earth-Humans experience body odor, acne, and various other grooming woes." So the TCA space colonists might have a "stinky Earthman" stereotype.

The first bit of this is, as I implied, highly unlikely. But the second bit? See my response on oral flora.

They might also want to get rid of oral flora. Cavities, bad breath, and a number of other inconveniences might not really be much of a a worry for Alex.

Some oral flora have recently been genetically modified to emit alcohol instead of whatever that acid is. They aren't approved for the market, due to 'unforeseeable consequences', but they're a lot more likely than trying to kill out all of your oral flora and then hope nothing replaces it: instead, the TCA is likely to kill it out and then replace it themselves. That way you don't have to worry about what your crew will get infected with between missions.

It could even be a standard part of dental plans.

These issues plus the potential danger of being pathogenic to some species that we'd just made diplomatic contact with?

As you might have noticed, the Loroi in the medbay weren't all wearing biological exposure suits: to me, that's a pretty sure sign that the setting is a little less strict than you're worrying about.

And that's just considering the human side of the equation. Alex has been through a Loroi shipboard medical facility, and, limited though it might be, he's had cause enough to be impressed by their surgical abilities. Loroi medical decontamination might've eliminated his skin flora, and potentially any or all of the other parasitic, mutualistic, commensalistic etc. bacteria colonies feasting and excreting on the human body at all times; Alex has pretty clearly not had to deal with infected tissues of any kind.

The Loroi have no idea whether those bacteria might be necessary for Jardin's survival.

The Loroi might also not need to shower. Even if the original Soia had malodorous body flora, the Loroi are (probably) a designer species created in and meant to inhabit controlled environments; they might not have any body flora at all,

Highly unlikely, bacteria have a tendency to colonize, so...

or have body flora that was itself engineered to be non-pathogenic and inoffensive, and their own natural skin excreta might, as with humans, be inoffensive without flora metabolizing it into various more pungent molecules.

... this is pretty likely. By popping out your own designer micro-flora, you can reduce the chances of something less polite taking up the job.

Should such predictions come to pass, we will surely see less of the boring solid-chocolate bars and more of the actually interesting ones that have other stuff mixed in.

Are you suggesting that the sky is in fact not falling? Sir, that goes against everything I've read in any news article since 1996.

Shocking, I know!

[javcs]

Absolute lies.
I have eaten 100% chocolate before, it was awesome. Admittedly, since I got about a 1.5 pound block, I didn't eat it all in one go. And, in fact, I did just whack chunks of it off and eat them on occasion. Though I have to admit that after a few chunks of pure chocolate, I experimented with using it as a topping, and found it did quite well. It went awesome with a double chocolate fudge ice cream with dark chocolate syrup.

In all honesty, I've started finding that a lot of milk chocolates are just too sugary and insufficiently chocolatey for my tastes.

I meant 'pure chocolate' a little less literally than that (I was referring to e.g. Hershey bars), but having tasted cocoa beans I am not impressed: any description other than 'bitter' is simply inaccurate. For common usage (ala candy bars) I recommend nothing above 70% (which is admittedly still a dark chocolate, rather than a milk or white). And bear in mind: I work in a health food store, I've tasted a fair amount of this stuff.

Ah, a misunderstanding, then.
I'll freely admit that solid chocolate without anything else whatsoever can get a bit 'boring' for some people, though not everybody; I do find things like chocolate covered peanuts or coffee beans are generally quite good, and are good for variety.
True, cocoa beans are bitter. Though, some people like bitter, at least, for some things.
Me, I like dark chocolate. Most milk chocolate usually needs something to help it out, especially the 'lighter' it is.
YMMV.

Seriously, though, I hauled a block of 100% along for Thanksgiving one time, in addition to some whipping cream (you can make your own whipped cream)

Marshmallows as well, though I haven't looked up how.

Pretty sure that marshmallows are a lot trickier to do quickly and from scratch though, and less applicable supplementing other desert items (scones, pie, cake, etc). Whipped cream just needs a blender or mixer (with the right attachment), or a whisk, and can be made on the spot, as needed - it's a whole lot easier, and can be used to safely distract/entertain small children out of the way if needed; also, whipped cream from scratch is a lot less likely (unless someone's lactose intolerant) to run into dietary issues.

Skin flora are not essential to your health; to my knowledge, the best thing that the nicest species do is take up space and thus keep other species of skin flora off, and give your immune system a workout whenever you get a breach in your skin. That is to say, they occupy space, and sometimes they fight you and die. (The worst things ordinary and normal human skin flora species can do? Eat the cartilage off of your bones, infect and permanently damage your brain, infect and permanently damage your heart, y'know, the works. You really don't want a lot of this stuff getting beneath the epidermis. Hell, most of us don't want it on the epidermis).

But without it, something else would live there. Biological skin (human or otherwise) without skin flora is like aluminum without an oxidized layer: it'll have one pretty soon.

A small scout ship, as a sealed environment with a limited population expected to be in close quarters with one another for a very long period of time, could potentially be sterilized of human skin flora. Not with soap or showering, mind you, that does nothing, but some pretty harsh decontamination procedures--likely using future tech in ways I cannot even guess at--could be expected to eliminate human skin flora, for everyone on the Bellarmine, for the entire duration of the mission.

Bacteria are a common enough thing in the human body (some of them are even required for our bodies to correctly function) that you're going to get something living on your skin. The question is only what, and when it'll start living there.

In fact, it is conceivable that skin flora are eliminated on all ships for all human missions, which basically amounts to "only Earth-Humans experience body odor, acne, and various other grooming woes." So the TCA space colonists might have a "stinky Earthman" stereotype.

The first bit of this is, as I implied, highly unlikely. But the second bit? See my response on oral flora.

They might also want to get rid of oral flora. Cavities, bad breath, and a number of other inconveniences might not really be much of a a worry for Alex.

Some oral flora have recently been genetically modified to emit alcohol instead of whatever that acid is. They aren't approved for the market, due to 'unforeseeable consequences', but they're a lot more likely than trying to kill out all of your oral flora and then hope nothing replaces it: instead, the TCA is likely to kill it out and then replace it themselves. That way you don't have to worry about what your crew will get infected with between missions.

It could even be a standard part of dental plans.

These issues plus the potential danger of being pathogenic to some species that we'd just made diplomatic contact with?

As you might have noticed, the Loroi in the medbay weren't all wearing biological exposure suits: to me, that's a pretty sure sign that the setting is a little less strict than you're worrying about.

And that's just considering the human side of the equation. Alex has been through a Loroi shipboard medical facility, and, limited though it might be, he's had cause enough to be impressed by their surgical abilities. Loroi medical decontamination might've eliminated his skin flora, and potentially any or all of the other parasitic, mutualistic, commensalistic etc. bacteria colonies feasting and excreting on the human body at all times; Alex has pretty clearly not had to deal with infected tissues of any kind.

The Loroi have no idea whether those bacteria might be necessary for Jardin's survival.

The Loroi might also not need to shower. Even if the original Soia had malodorous body flora, the Loroi are (probably) a designer species created in and meant to inhabit controlled environments; they might not have any body flora at all,

Highly unlikely, bacteria have a tendency to colonize, so...

or have body flora that was itself engineered to be non-pathogenic and inoffensive, and their own natural skin excreta might, as with humans, be inoffensive without flora metabolizing it into various more pungent molecules.

... this is pretty likely. By popping out your own designer micro-flora, you can reduce the chances of something less polite taking up the job.

Should such predictions come to pass, we will surely see less of the boring solid-chocolate bars and more of the actually interesting ones that have other stuff mixed in.

Are you suggesting that the sky is in fact not falling? Sir, that goes against everything I've read in any news article since 1996.

Shocking, I know!

Eh ... while the Loroi almost certainly have tweaks to make things simpler/easier for them ... they're bound to realize that non-engineered species are going have greater inherent hygiene issues than engineered species. Also, I'd bet that a lot of the engineering done to the Soia-form races had to do with internal bacteria and such. External bacteria would be trickier to fiddle with - and not have it messed up by accident.

[bunnyboy]

Trying to fatten him up for the slaughter.

Nah, the entire ship is actually watching him on closed circuit TV. They were taking bets on what would make him throw up and how far the vomit would fly. Oddly enough, Fireblade is cleaning house at this game - something about being telekinetic gives you a deep understanding of projectile vomit physics.

Another thing I just realized:
"...no visitors except the security officers who were constantly trying to get me to eat."

Is it just me, or does that sound like the most adorable of all things?

Clearly the Choo Choo train, and the airplane was used in order to coax Alex to eat. Bubbling noises from their lips may have been used.

Wouldn't surprise me if they're babying him, since they put frequent attention on their male Lorois.

Maybe half of the ship is affected by instical take-care-virus, whose victims are trying to do anything to get him free, feeded and snu-snued.

[Solemn]

*snip*

I was mostly referring to eliminating undesireable skin and oral flora, but, sure, you got me fair and square.

Eh ... while the Loroi almost certainly have tweaks to make things simpler/easier for them ... they're bound to realize that non-engineered species are going have greater inherent hygiene issues than engineered species.

That seems a rather... radical proposal.

Are you really saying the Loroi were entirely engineered, and are not actually the natural Ancestors with minor genetic tweaks here and there? And that it is in fact Humaniti that is entirely natural?

The Humaniti sample observed may seem physically similar to a Loroi, though significantly larger and stronger, but he is also immune to telepathic attacks and telepathic interrogation, and utterly undetectable via conventional Farseer methods. None of these things are observed in the naturally sentient species known to Loroi science; the only direct comparison that can be made seems to be to artificial constructs.

Of the known biochemical differences, the most obvious is Humaniti's red blood; being based on iron rather than copper might make their blood vastly more efficient at normal operating temperatures and pressures. One would, of course, assume an engineered species to be in many ways a more efficient and streamlined improvement over the original.

The Humaniti male seems far larger and more imposing than any male has any right to be, seems immune to the primary advantage of the Loroi (upon which the Loroi Union currently depends for survival), and has a vastly different metabolism based around their own, potentially more efficient sanguinary fluid. The command staff's prevailing theory seems to be that Humaniti was engineered specifically by the Umiak as a weapon for the current war, which matches with a number of observations but leaves many unexplained. However, though there are problems with the “Umiak engineering” theory, it still seems vastly more reasonable than that they are a natural occurrence. Nowhere else in nature has such complete telepathic resistance found, and if Humaniti were indeed a natural emergence this would have to have emerged in an environment in which telepathy is actually absent.

The idea that you'd get so specific a result in the absence of actual selective pressure defies belief. Humaniti as engineered species seems the only explanation that matches current available data and projections.

The best fit to all currently known circumstances seems to be that they were engineered by the Umiak, perhaps after the capture of Seren—for all we know we might well be looking at a brainwashed survivor of the Seren atrocities, fundamentally and systemically altered in ways we cannot begin to imagine—or perhaps after initial contact, twenty five years before the war began.

However, as an alternate, they may in fact be the remnants of a lost caste; we are aware of the Listel caste having existed since the Ancestors' time, and have no idea just how specialized castes from different systems in the Ancestors' age might have been; perhaps there are far stranger remnants of Ancestral lineage scattered across the galaxy. It is known that the first Loroi worlds were settled by spacebound Loroi who presumably had no choice but to settle where they could, and subsequently lost their ancestral technology; perhaps the circumstances of Humaniti settlement were so difficult that their kindred had to re-engineer and alter many of their own traits with the Ancestors' technology. This, admittedly, does not explain certain known facts, such as their difficulty digesting Soia-Liron foods, whereas the Umiak engineering explanation does, as the Umiak have their own foodstuffs which they would presumably tweak their weapons to digest easily, with less concern over Ancestor-derived foods which they likely have a certain degree of difficulty acquiring.

Humaniti is a deeply and profoundly troubling mystery, and arriving in such delicate circumstances, too. We cannot afford to jump to any conclusions at all, and cannot even afford to rule out such seemingly absurd notions as “Humaniti is natural, Loroi are artificial human simulacra.” But there is a difference between not ruling something out, and embracing it wholeheartedly; one is a trait of a cautious observer, the other, of a fool.

[/joke]

[Absalom]

Ah, a misunderstanding, then.
I'll freely admit that solid chocolate without anything else whatsoever can get a bit 'boring' for some people, though not everybody; I do find things like chocolate covered peanuts or coffee beans are generally quite good, and are good for variety.

And that sort of thing is, in fact, what I in general have come to prefer.

Me, I like dark chocolate. Most milk chocolate usually needs something to help it out, especially the 'lighter' it is.
YMMV.

I've come to regard white chocolate as mostly being a waste of cocoa butter, so same here.

Pretty sure that marshmallows are a lot trickier to do quickly and from scratch though, and less applicable supplementing other desert items (scones, pie, cake, etc). Whipped cream just needs a blender or mixer (with the right attachment), or a whisk, and can be made on the spot, as needed - it's a whole lot easier, and can be used to safely distract/entertain small children out of the way if needed; also, whipped cream from scratch is a lot less likely (unless someone's lactose intolerant) to run into dietary issues.

It's also about the only way you'll be able to get brown sugar whipped cream instead of the common refined sugar version.

[snip]

Eh ... while the Loroi almost certainly have tweaks to make things simpler/easier for them ... they're bound to realize that non-engineered species are going have greater inherent hygiene issues than engineered species. Also, I'd bet that a lot of the engineering done to the Soia-form races had to do with internal bacteria and such. External bacteria would be trickier to fiddle with - and not have it messed up by accident.

I think external bacteria would actually be a little easier to deal with. Those modified oral bacteria are basically ONLY modified to produce alcohol instead of acid, everything else is the same. The internal system is massively complex: while the human body is by volume and mass genuinely human, by cell count it is bacterial. Everything is constantly interacting back-and-forth, most of the auto-immune system is actually in the digestive track, it's roughly akin to having a miniature rain forest inside your stomach. Scientists are even beginning to think that the appendix isn't actually vestigial: it's used to repopulate the gut after massive bacteria die-offs. The only way that it's vestigial is that modern Western societies are clean enough that such die-offs don't normally happen in the first place. If you add in the possibility that bacterial gene-swapping might be important for the general functioning of the digestive flora (e.g. to adjust to changing dietary behaviors faster) then you wind up with a system that's liable to be every bit as complex as the brain, and possibly even more so since several mostly unrelated gene-lines are involved, instead of just the handful that exist within human cells.

[Karst45]

awww! Why did the chocolate subject had to come back before i had finish that animation :S (btw do you know any other, easy to use animation program than Flash MS? cause it keep crashing every 10 sec :S)

[fredgiblet]

@Solemn

Loroi don't have copper blood.

[Solemn]

@Solemn

Loroi don't have copper blood.

Loroi blood is blue, based on the same transport mechanism (most likely an exotic form of hemocyanin)

hemocyanin

Now, technically, I guess you could argue that hemocyanin isn't blood, it's hemolymph. But you can't argue that it's not copper-based. There are reasons to use iron instead of copper, which that go down to the nature of cooperative versus non-cooperative bonding and so forth. But it seems pretty obvious Arioch wanted blood that was based on binding oxygen to copper, presumably with a ton of other mechanisms to make up for copper's shortcomings, presumably because that would give it something close to his desired bluish color under certain circumstances. I'd guess the Soia-Liron have some really ridiculously effective anaerobic respiration cycles, among a large number of other things which would be required to make something like that work.

Unless Arioch took back that "hemocyanin" comment at some point, yes, it's copper.

[fredgiblet]

...

I was remembering a post where was talking about Loroi blood and what was in it and he said something different (or the same thing using different words). I can't find the post so I will concede the point.

[Arioch]

It's "most likely" hemocyanin. Meaning I don't expect to directly address this in the comic.

Now, technically, I guess you could argue that hemocyanin isn't blood, it's hemolymph.

Hemocyanin is just one component (the oxygen transport mechanism) in hemolymph, which also includes salts and nutrients and immune-system structures and what have you. Arthropod hemolymph has free hemocyanin molecules floating around in it, but in Soia-Liron blood it would be incorporated into more complicated transport structures (like our red blood cells).

I was remembering a post where was talking about Loroi blood and what was in it and he said something different (or the same thing using different words).

I think somewhere in the past I may have mentioned methemoglobin, but I was confusing it for hemocyanin. Methemoglobin is really poor at transporting oxygen.

[fredgiblet]

YES. That's what I was remembering.

[wileama]

Nowhere else in nature has such complete telepathic resistance found, and if Humaniti were indeed a natural emergence this would have to have emerged in an environment in which telepathy is actually absent.

The idea that you'd get so specific a result in the absence of actual selective pressure defies belief. Humaniti as engineered species seems the only explanation that matches current available data and projections.

Well not necessarily. Remember that there are some 'old stories' in which humans have telepathy. Given everything else that has happened in outsider discarding these stories as pure fantasies may not be all that wise. Which would then provided you with the possibility of an evolutionary pressure. I can think of two instances where this would make evolutionary sense. The first being a sort of arms race. Two competing groups develop increasing resistance to telepathy to counter the advantage the other group has. I think it would be more likely a bi-product to some other adaptation like say immunity to the black death, or some such. A thought occurs to me though: what if humanity only develop a resistance to telepathy, but did not in fact lose the ability to use it. Instead surrounded by unreadable sentient beings it just goes unused. Maybe not all of those telephone psychics are fake?

Also I don't think we can discount the improbable option that it just occurred completely by random. I'm no biologist, but as I understand it one of the core tenants of evolution is that mutations are random. I agree it would be strange as all get out, but still viable. The resistance could be a simple byproduct of the particular brain structure earth life uses.

The best fit to all currently known circumstances seems to be that they were engineered by the Umiak, perhaps after the capture of Seren—for all we know we might well be looking at a brainwashed survivor of the Seren atrocities, fundamentally and systemically altered in ways we cannot begin to imagine—or perhaps after initial contact, twenty five years before the war began.

I think there is one fundamental issue with this. Why bother putting them on a planet for them to evolve on for a couple thousand year, or even the memory of it? Why not incorporate it the Umiak empire? Personally I would make sure my secret genetically engineered weapon knew what side it was fighting for.

However, as an alternate, they may in fact be the remnants of a lost caste; we are aware of the Listel caste having existed since the Ancestors' time, and have no idea just how specialized castes from different systems in the Ancestors' age might have been; perhaps there are far stranger remnants of Ancestral lineage scattered across the galaxy. It is known that the first Loroi worlds were settled by spacebound Loroi who presumably had no choice but to settle where they could, and subsequently lost their ancestral technology; perhaps the circumstances of Humaniti settlement were so difficult that their kindred had to re-engineer and alter many of their own traits with the Ancestors' technology. This, admittedly, does not explain certain known facts, such as their difficulty digesting Soia-Liron foods, whereas the Umiak engineering explanation does, as the Umiak have their own foodstuffs which they would presumably tweak their weapons to digest easily, with less concern over Ancestor-derived foods which they likely have a certain degree of difficulty acquiring.

I actually think this idea makes the most sense. The food issue could be easily explained as a couple thousand years of evolution in a unique biosphere independent of the core species. That, or the need to radically re-engineered to adapt to the local biosphere. A genetic 'hack job' as the population is dying off on some strange alien world could result in all sorts of interesting changes.

Humaniti is a deeply and profoundly troubling mystery, and arriving in such delicate circumstances, too. We cannot afford to jump to any conclusions at all...

Agreed

[Trantor]

Are you really saying the Loroi were entirely engineered, and are not actually the natural Ancestors with minor genetic tweaks here and there? And that it is in fact Humaniti that is entirely natural?

Yup, we´re the early dumped prototypes.

...

Humaniti is a deeply and profoundly troubling mystery, and arriving in such delicate circumstances, too. We cannot afford to jump to any conclusions at all, and cannot even afford to rule out such seemingly absurd notions as “Humaniti is natural, Loroi are artificial human simulacra.” But there is a difference between not ruling something out, and embracing it wholeheartedly; one is a trait of a cautious observer, the other, of a fool.

[/joke]

I like your way of thinking, and i like it to follow the paths of your high degree of abstraction. Like in your "devils advocate"-piece. Thumbs up.

My conclusion, though, in this case is a bit different, because unlike the Loroi we (except some "creationism"-wackos ) know how old our species is, and which way it took to develop. So my thesis of the "early dumped prototype". We´re either this or the Soia just used us as archetypes.
Unless of course there´s another explanation in the Outsiderverse we don´t know about yet.

[Absalom]

Are you really saying the Loroi were entirely engineered, and are not actually the natural Ancestors with minor genetic tweaks here and there? And that it is in fact Humaniti that is entirely natural?

Yup, we´re the early dumped prototypes.

Actually, you're thinking of the house-cat lineage. A while after the project was abandoned the Soia did another sweep for reference species, and found that something domesticatable had developed in response .

I really need to make a 'death from above' image...

[Solemn]

I think there is one fundamental issue with this. Why bother putting them on a planet for them to evolve on for a couple thousand year, or even the memory of it?

I don't think that's really such a fundamental problem. From a Loroi perspective based on what little information they've had a chance to gain over the course of the three or so conversations they've had with Alex, the Loroi have no real reason to believe either of those things happened. They only have Alex's say-so that he represents a world and has an independent government behind him; they don't know whether the thinks he's telling the truth or is knowingly and intentionally lying to their faces. After all, their mind-probe was less than a complete success.

All the evidence that he comes from an independent world come from his claims to represent the “Terran” Colonial Authority and “Terran” government; “Terran” is similar to the Trade word for “rot, decay,” and could easily be part of some sort of easy-to-remember emergency cipher or code-word meaning something like “something bad has happened, all Umiak friendlies please render assistance” intended perhaps to be discreetly slipped into conversation, so a friendly contact who understands the code who catches it will be able to figure out what to do (the Loroi certainly don't seem to trust the Historian construct, and flatly stated that sending Alex with Mozin [which would incidentally have had a good chance of putting him in prolonged direct contact with the construct] was "out of the question" and immediately ordered Mozin [and thus, incidentally, the construct] to leave the system; to me, this really seemed as more of a move to keep him under control and monitored at all times than a matter of concern for his personal safety). The Loroi would first have to verify that “Terran” isn't some elaborate fiction on Alex's part or some sort of some code, but rather, a real actual government before judging the likelihood of the Umiak implanting false memories or constructing a Potemkin world (and, unfortunately, most if not all the real evidence they could have had of Earth's existence is likely drifting through space or utterly disintegrated).

Stillstorm has more or less publicly stated that she believes Alex is lying about everything.

They have no way of actually telling that Alex actually remembers anything; everything and anything he says might be some sort of code or catchphrase meant to be caught by, say, a Historian personality construct. If there's one thing the Umiak do not lack, it's the ability to build different ship designs out of whatever they needed to put together; even his ship's wreckage is hardly solid proof. Even if the Mizol fully understand normal Loroi physical tells for when some Loroi's lying, they wouldn't be able to safely bet on the same rules applying to Alex. Especially since he hasn't been caught lying, which in turn means there hasn't been a moment where they could tell that he was lying and thus understand that he probably wasn't lying about anything else.

Betting on Alex's honesty is very much a leap of faith.

The Loroi have every reason in the world to be cautious with him.

Even if it does make them seem like jerks.

I actually think this idea makes the most sense.

Okay, but I think you're using information that the Loroi do not have to arrive at that decision. It's already a settled matter for you that humanity has been around for thousands of years, instead of, say, since last Tuesday, so you're predisposed to reject that notion out of hand.

Stillstorm, to all appearances, is not.

I agree it would be strange as all get out, but still viable. The resistance could be a simple byproduct of the particular brain structure earth life uses.

I'll allow it. Mostly on account of telepathy not actually existing.

The Loroi, though, from an in-universe perspective, they probably ought to have a harder time swallowing it.

No doubt the Loroi opinion on the matter of humanity's origin will change after they learn more about us and they get a decent body of evidence (or even just decent testimony from Alex) that humans are all-natural, organic grown, no artificial colors or flavors. I cannot imagine what sort of cultural backlash this knowledge might have for the Loroi, it really depends on how firmly their Soia myths are entrenched in their society (for example, their Ancestral mythology might be integrated into how they justify their caste system, especially since certain castes [and thus caste divisions] supposedly predate the fall of the Soia; cutting their cultural identity off at the roots might wither the tree and bring the whole thing slowly crashing down).

I honestly have a hard time trying to think of an explanation for the Loroi that I'd be able to accept. I mean, there comes a point when the premises of a work of fiction become so unrealistic that you just lean back and accept them, because explanations only make them worse. Psychic powers and FTL travel are usually pretty far past that point, right next to suspiciously-human nonhumans with no relationship to humanity, swordfights with future tech, and, of course, zombies. You don't question the zombie plague, you just accept it as fact and move on, no matter how interested in the origins and causes and rules of the zombie plague the story's characters are. At some point you realize that you don't need to know the answer to the zombie plague because you've become an old man, and bitter, and you just wanted to watch a damn zombie movie, not hear about cordyceps as if fungi were midichlorians.

Anyways.

My own personal theory at the moment is that the Soia had some technological means of telepathy (probably involving hyperspace in some way because why not), which they used for all the things the Loroi use it. They ordinarily could detect life anywhere with this advanced technology, but while mapping a route between systems some Soia ship came across Earth, found that it had advanced life with no telepathic signatures, and thought this was odd. So they took some samples and experimented with the brain structures and such of the largest and most advanced brains then on the planet; proto-humans, and, of course, humpback whales.

The proto-humans were engineered to eventually work as living replacements for certain devices that required a living person as an intermediary, particularly in situations where the use of those psychic powers or technology would have a deleterious effect on the health of the individual; no reason to waste Soia brains on far-seer duty.

The humpback whales, of course, were pushed in an opposite direction, given limited telekinesis as a way of manipulating objects in hazardous ocean environments but left utterly without telepathic abilities, and, more important, without telepathic signatures; each side, proto-human and whale, intended as a check upon the other. Sort of like the Roman and British tradition of pitting two powerful tribes against each other and keeping their rivalry simmering in order to better keep each under their thumb.

Then some idiot gave some Loroi telekinetic abilities or forgot to cull their telekinetics or just spilled some coffee on the Loroi gene sequencer, and all hell broke loose and the once-proud Soia empire was reduced to dust within a few generations.

And that's not just the origin story of the Loroi and the Pol, but also, possibly more importantly, an important moral lesson about whaling. The whales aren't our enemy, and if humanity and whalekind could only have put aside their rivalry they might have avoided so much bloodshed.

But now, after thousands of years, perhaps we and the whales can both finally learn to forgive.

[Trantor]

I cannot imagine what sort of cultural backlash this knowledge might have for the Loroi, it really depends on how firmly their Soia myths are entrenched in their society

You raise a very good point.
This could really hit them hard.

And don´t forget about the Barsam, who were all sceptics before. Free lunch for them.

(for example, their Ancestral mythology might be integrated into how they justify their caste system, especially since certain castes [and thus caste divisions] supposedly predate the fall of the Soia; cutting their cultural identity off at the roots might wither the tree and bring the whole thing slowly crashing down).

Turmoil ahead.

[TrashMan]

Solemn, are you consumping some halucogenic sustances?

Whales? Waht the hell are you on about?

Also, mething you are overthinnking this. For the Umiak to geneticly engineer false humans is way too much work and too much trouble for no real gain.
And if Umiak were able to engineer humans, then the fight agaisnt hte Loroi would have been over wAAAY sooner.

[Solemn]

Solemn, are you consumping some halucogenic sustances?

I can very honestly say I have never in my entire life comsumped any halucogenic sustances.

Whales? Waht the hell are you on about?

Sorry, I thought that was clear.

There was a movie once involving a race of telepathic space elves and a mysterious aquatic race and a human star fleet that was no match for the super-advanced race, so mankind had to take an extreme risk to select a diplomat to make peaceful contact and establish healthy relations with this superior power.

To that end, they ended up with the least likely choice of diplomats; a mated pair of humpback whales.



Are you suggesting that not all science fiction stories are obligated to follow similar patterns even if they contain some roughly similar elements?

Also, mething you are overthinnking this. For the Umiak to geneticly engineer false humans is way too much work and too much trouble for no real gain.
And if Umiak were able to engineer humans, then the fight agaisnt hte Loroi would have been over wAAAY sooner.

...if genetically engineering humans could end the war, wouldn't that be real gain?