I was looking through the insider section and had some thoughts concerning telekinesis, and Loroi abilities in general. Just speculation, and keeping in mind telling a good story takes precedence over realism...


First thought, concerning Fireblade's ability to "apply several tons of force", recoil, and where that energy comes from.

What if the application of psychokinetic force is indirect, basically channeling energy from the PK's surroundings rather than the force coming from their own body? For example, the heat from pyrokinesis could come from other matter nearby that is cooled in compensation. Maybe the personal energy required to manipulate such forces is much lower, thus leveraging the actual power of the TK into external action. This would also allow for lateral action rather than just push/pull, and could help explain how a human-sized Loroi could have more TK "strength" that humanity's best weightlifters.

Which brings us to the second thought, after seeing "Loroi Judo" on Fireblade's GURPS character sheet, I initially assumed that what was meant was literally judo-like and not say, wrestling. Having trained judo for 7-8 years or so, I was thinking that anyone with TK abilities would surely integrate them into their judo style, and apply judo principles of balance, leverage, and efficient use of force and into their use of TK. With great timing and leverage, 100 lb judoka can slam a 240 lb sumo wrestler, with only wrist contact and little force being applied (basically what aikido aims to do, some top judokas can pull off in competition).

Combine the two, and I could see a strong and well-trained individual like Fireblade would plausibly able to move several tons around, not to mention slamming Alex.

Third thought. What if Loroi abilities are tapping into something related to hyperspace? Assuming the known races don't fully understand hyperspace, this could explain why these abilities remain a mystery, let alone being replicated using technology. If you have one deviation from known physics, why not abuse it fully?

Fourth thought. Considering how hard it is for computers to parse language, and real-world attempts to read brainwaves, even if a device capable of sanzai could be made, parsing would be a big problem. Just as humans have whole areas of the brain dedicated to verbal and non-verbal language processing, no doubt loroi would have a unique and significant portion of their brain dedicated to their telepathy. If the hyperspace theory of Loroi abilities sticks, perhaps this area has to deal with the unpredictable nature of hyperspace as well. Good luck writing THAT software.

Fifth thought. Wow this is a long post. If some ships were fully automated and unmanned, would farseers sense their approach?

daelyte: most of your theories and thoughts here have been addressed before.

first: well, considering that fireblade shoving hard is her TK equivalent of poking something, if i recall correctly, she can lift a few tons by sheer brute force(assuming amplifier), she could probably just rip someone apart, the difficulty comes up when she is trying to NOT kill someone.

second:
judo in gurps terms is just a representative of some kind of 'defensive' martial art, gives bonus to blocking/dodging if i recall correctly.

third:
it seems likely that the entire tele-whatever of the loroi is related to hyperspace, since it is the only known FTL medium, and loroi telepathy is FTL.
add to that the ability of TK users with good control to fly, and that it does NOT have the user as point of reference...hyper-space exerting pressure on real-space seems as likely as anything else, besides if it was ambient physical reality used as point of reference it would be easily be proven, 'hyper-space' is the likely culprit.

fourth: i remember something about telepathically activated switches, but it was simple stuff, on/off type of thing, but not sure, could be remembering a discussion about it that got hammered by the word of god.

fifth: no, they would not, far seers detect sentient living minds, the jury is still out on full fledged AI systems having a signature, but i personally doubt it.
the following thought is berzerker style AI warships, which is probably a very bad idea.

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welcome to the forum btw.
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I am lobbying for Loroi Judo to be recognised as a sport in the Games of the LXIX Olympiad, to be held in the summer of 2168. Why not '60 or '64? Well, there's a seven-year gap between the choice of host city, etc., and the actual Olympics, so the earliest Loroi Judo gold medals would be handed out in 2168. Also, the IOC country code for the Loroi Union would probably be ULO, from the French Union loroyenne.

If the rules of the Olympics in 2160 are similar to what they are today, the Loroi would be unable to participate due to their many artificial enhancements and augmentations.

Sorry to be a wet blanket

If

Well, if Loroi were allowed to attend then all augments would be allowed and the Loroi advantages would be negated. Considering Loroi augmentations are mostly categorized as things that allow them to function for extended periods of time in different planetary bio-domes they wouldn't be able to stand up to a human augment with say, a reinforced skeletal structure and musculature, enhanced reflexes, augmented intellect and regeneration.

I've been going over gurps and at the current tech level available to humanity, (and taking into account Loroi do not use much, if any augmentation besides their "inherent" stuff") it would basically be Fireblade (soldier with amazing stamina) vs Albert Wesker, and Wesker would have access to psionic nullification devices. Who would win?

The energy to power a psychokinetic's abilities comes from "somewhere else," rather than from the PK's own body or immediate surroundings. Something akin to hyperspace is the likely answer. And there is no reaction or recoil. Stories that incorporate realistic physics limitations on telekinesis can be interesting, but then the use of such abilities becomes a logistical exercise, and I didn't feel that was the right way to go for this particular setting. Fireblade's psychokinesis is something she uses in the heat of battle in a nearly berserk frenzy, so her having to stop and calculate heat sources and recoil vectors doesn't have the right tone.

Lishranen ("grappling") is an unarmed combat technique similar in some ways to Judo in that it focuses on throws and locks and disarming techniques rather than kicks and strikes. Fireblade learned it as part of her standard training along with firearms and knife skills, but she doesn't use it much. It's not connected at all to her PK use. Fireblade's PK is partially uncontrolled, so there's nothing subtle or "martial arts"-like at all about its use.

Telepathy has to interact with physical mechanisms to some degree (or amplifiers wouldn't work), but it can't be recorded, so there's a juggling act that has to go on. I don't think the complexity of the signal is significant justification for the lack of ability to record it, as the recording machine doesn't need to be able to understand it to record what it senses (we were recording audio information long before any computers existed, much less had the ability to understand the audio data). What I figure is that there's an element of the telepathic transmission that exists in real space, but that most of it is again "somewhere else."

Unmanned vessels are not detectable to Farseers. This includes the Historian AI-controlled ships. While the very advanced Historians seems to be comfortable letting AI's hop around space fighting for them (and even conducting diplomacy for them), the Umiak are more reluctant to do so. It is reasonable to suppose that ships have crews for a reason to begin with:

• Without FTL communication, there can be no "remote control" of ships or fleets in another system. Any AI must be smart enough to operate completely autonomously, which is a dangerous proposition by itself (see: Berserker).
• Computer systems can be hacked. The Historians in particular are very skilled at this.
• Ship systems need to be physically maintained and fixed if they break. Service robots exist, but are used mainly as assistants (and mostly by non-Umiak), as they are not known for their improvisational skills.

And human soldiers would generally not use judo either but MA in which they train to kill not incapacitate. Overal martial sports (judo, karate and a bunch of others these days) generally strongly distort standard teaching aproaches.

Instead of focusing on dealing with attacks, they instead tend to focus on scoring points and staying legal in the competition. It's also the reason most militaries tend to have their own teaching methods and styles which tend to stay clear of martial sports.

Obviously a martial sports teaches you some necessary basics like a martial art, but a different mindset.

As to human augmentations - To be honest I wouldn't be surprised if human soldiers don't have and employ Deus ex level mechanical augmentations.

Obviously in outsider large standing ground armies seem to be less stressed, since nation states are less of an issue. But that only paves waves to these specialists who would probably require said augmentations to even survive showing up on the battlefield.



To be honest, how exactly would you hack a ships AI without local access. Say you're smart and build your ships in such a way that they ca receive orders only in certain hotpoints and there's no other way or means of actually influencing the AI otherwise. Unless you manage to get physical access to the machine.

You can't also hack a computer that's not connecting to any network or has means of remote communication. (unless someone physicaly brings the infection over)

Loroi olympics?

*imagines a Loroi using telekinesis in the 100 meter sprint, tripping her opponents at random, or perhaps preventing them from moving from the starting blocks*

Well, that's easy to fix — put a layer of tinfoil under the track

I forgot about the non-recording thing. We invented telescopes long before photography, so I guess the same could be true for Loroi amplifiers.



Arioch's other two points stand however. The Loroi don't trust AIs, and the Umiak aren't very innovative, so neither seem likely to develop such things.

If unmanned vessels have little ability to adapt, they'd have to be mostly fire-and-forget. Some could still have specialized uses as probes, guided space mines, or long range planet-bombers, roles that don't require much adaptation, should a species be inclined to use them.



You have that backwards. Military unarmed combat has very tight time constraints, so they only teach the essentials of what to do when you get a "free shot" against untrained opponents. For example, punching someone in the throat is very effective, but you won't easily get that chance against a boxer.

There was a bar fight between 3 seals and 2 mma fighters, and the mma fighters dominated.

A judoka can drop you on your head, break your arms, and choke you. He can make you fall with techniques that are considered a setup, or throw you clear across a room. Judokas have been known to throw bears and kill hatchet-wielding maniacs.

Similar things can be said about boxing, muay thai, wrestling, BJJ, or any other full contact combat sport.

Military unarmed combat taught over a longer time-span, such as Combat Sambo and Krav maga, look a lot like MMA with weapon and disarming skills added in.



Even a tight, well designed communication protocol wouldn't leave room for hacking. You can only hack a system using its own design flaws. Star Trek's "The Best of Both Worlds" was a great example of that.

But that's like saying "2 mma fighters try to mug navy seals in a dark alley and both of them get stabbed". The fact remains that mma fighters are trained for an environment where different rules exist.

SEAL's aren't trained to win bar fights or boxing matches. They're trained for fights in which there are no rules, and in which it's quite all right if the opponent ends up dead or permanently injured.

Also, in a bar fight, pretty much by definition, one or more of the participants are drunk out of their gourds. Not exactly an ideal circumstance in which to measure the value of a skill.

Just to be a bit of a pedantic nit-pick. I think jūjutsu and perhaps aikido and other similar past and present fighting systems are a better analogue to Lishranen as described above. Judo unlike it's predecessor and sibling styles seems to be quite stripped down in terms of anti-weapons and locking techniques really. From my limited knowledge of Judo it is a rather thoroughbred sport oriented style.

I don't know about judo or kick boxing or MMA or any of that other fancy stuff, but I was trained for three years in karate (im a green belt, but in some schools it can be different), for the most part we were taught what I'd call "active self-defence" the ability to defend ones self from attack and effectively block incoming attacks while still being able to break someone else's defence, whether they are trained in a martial discipline or not.
My sensei is a black belt, 5th Dan I think (1st black belt is called 1st Dan) and has used what he knows in fights in the real world a number of times and won (in fact if he'd not pulled his blows he'd have killed them) as well as winning several competitions at national and world level. A competition fight is very different from a fight in the real world, where it might be for your life, but the skills I was taught were meant to be used in the real world, competitions just show off how much better you are.
Its not all just about blocks and throws, there are some moves they teach in the dojo that you never use in a competition, one move I was taught would, when done right, not break your arm, but splinter the bone from the shoulder to wrist or another move which break the leg at the knee, or a move called "axe kick" a kick which is landed on the collar bone, or "back kick", you spin on the spot and thrust your leg out behind you at about chest hight, these moves, and a number of others are deemed simply too dangerous, along with some throws, to be performed in a competition, and while in a competition it is all about scoring points, there are rules about how you score points, in competitions blows have to pulled, else you'll do some serious damaged to whoever your fighting.

Of course this may be different for others who have done karate, each school has its own teaching methods and competition rules, some even have their own grading system, I remember one girl who changed schools and when she came to ours she was wearing a purple belt the UKA (my school) doesn't have that one.

In summary a martial art like karate is useful to the military, its good for close combat and, while taught as an unarmed discipline for the most part, a weapon can easily be incorporated, at the very least its great exercise

Trust that there's a huge difference between training of martial sports (essentially most trained self defense methods) and actual martial arts were people are thought to how to disable and kill.

It's basically due to a number of factors, starting from the focus on katas, dan progression as well as competitions. It's basically a move that happened a long time ago and modern trends tend to only reinforce it.

The trainers on top of that tend to drill their students on what they need to pass. And most martial sports kinda removed the drill for actual self defense.

Obviously even a martial sport teaches usefull things. But perhaps the most important it gives you is actual training so you get into shape.

MMA is slightly on the sidelines mostly due to some different mindsets in the competition, but cops and soldiers in my experience tend to be a lot more dangerous in the open.

There are sometimes injuries in MMA and other combat sports, when sportsmanship fails. Some competitors refuse to tap, or decide they just want to hurt the other guy regardless of the rules. Sometimes they get away with it, too.



I can't argue with that. Sane and sober people rarely fight to the death without weapons these days. What is the world coming to?



Judo does have chokes and armbars, which are the most reliable locking techniques against skilled opponents, and they are trained against resisting opponents and used in competitions. They're not taught until intermediate levels however, or to children, as it's considered unsafe to have overzealous beginners practice them on each other.

Some schools do teach judo with more on self-defense, so they also teach classic jūjutsu stuff including striking, anti-weapon techniques, and dirty tricks, but the majority of schools focus on competition-legal techniques and teach the rest in high level katas only (as an afterthought).

Judo as a Martial Art



The difference between an arm lock and limb destruction is 5 lbs of torque.

When properly applied, a choke hold causes unconsciousness in 8-14 seconds. Cerebral hypoxia can cause permanent, irreversible damage within a dozen seconds of unconsciousness, and sure death within a few minutes.

Judo and BJJ train these techniques against skilled resisting opponents, and use it in competition.

Then there's catch wrestling, which adds leg locks, neck and spine cranks, etc. In traditional catch wrestling, hooks are used rather than submissions. Hooks are a brutal form of submission, which executes the submission so fast that does not allow them to tap out. In the old days, people have known to die of neck breaks, broken arms etc while competing in catch wrestling.

actually, MMA is very effective in a street fight, assuming one little detail, that you are fighting one on one, because if the numbers are not even grappling goes pretty much buh-bye as effective fighting, and MMA is pretty heavily geared towards grappling.

but, and this is rather critical, MMA may look aggressive but it is basically a defensive style designed to wear out your opponent by being more energy economic, let him struggle and waste energy, while you conserve yours is a rather common strategy among them.

the same is true for judo, aikido and many other styles, mostly reactive and mostly grappling, MMA at least does not skimp on standing fighting, but most of the fights go to ground, the more offensive fighters are pushing the other guy to make a mistake they can exploit, this is a very valid tactic, but most of the training goes to 'not losing' and not the offensive styles 'kill the other guy', MMA does have some balance there, since it is not really a style it's a 'we think this works' kind of thing, and it does, in the ring.

on the street there are basically two kinds of fights, down and dirty mud slinging wrestling, which MMA, judo and greco roman wrestling excel at, then there is five guys trying to mug me kind of fight, which judo and wrestling generally do not train for at all, MMA at least has decent standing fighting, but again does not train for it, a 'offensive minded' martial art would, since a user of that would think 'i'll cripple and kill as many of them as i can before they kill me, i just might get all of them.'

but the second kind of fight CAN NOT(at least practically) be won without a kill or be killed attitude, being careful with someone that wants to kill you? is his life more important to you than your own? why?
1:
numeric disadvantage
2:
they are probably armed, you are probably not.
3:
you are careful about how to handle them, they are not.

that is three advantages to them, two of them you can't do anything about, but number three you CAN do something about, and without being grandmaster awesome of the Hollywood style of choreography, you can't win against such odds without trying to move the odds in your favor somehow.


sorry for the rant, pet peeve, people do not get how damn difficult it is to fight against many opponents, and the only 'knowledge' most of them have is Hollywood, which is not exactly realistic.

daelyte:
there is a difference between 'getting away with it' and aiming for it to begin with.
and trust me, grappling/wrestling does not work all that well in most 'real fights' unless you are (a) in a one on one fight or (b) going for quick breaks, eye gouging and tendon snaps which you can do while still standing, and that shit will maim the guy for life, a knockout will not.

to answer point 1:
i was taught that i was not immortal just cos i can punch, if the numerical advantage is against you, disengage as soon as possible, to be honest most of what i was taught i was told not to bother with in a fight, just aim for the face and put in a lock of some sort

point 2:
most blocks are designed not to deflect at the hand but at the wrist and then grab, the wrist gives you the best way to control someone's arm, if someone has a weapon like a knife, then you should still be able block and disarm them regardless

point 3:
three warnings. then i can kill someone.

I agree that going to the ground against multiple opponents would not be a good idea. All the more reason to train something that will help you remain standing, such as judo or wrestling. Staying on your feet also maintains the option to run if an opportunity arises, assuming running isn't initially an option in which case it's best to take it.

However, throwing is not the same as ground grappling. Judo is about 70% throws, 30% groundwork.

I know schoolyard fights aren't the same as street fights, but I've several times fought alone against 5-6 at a time and was the last one standing, and I was the smallest palest most unathletic kid my age, with poor motor coordination to boot. I shudder to think of what a judo champion could do.



This BJJ is defensive, but not judo or wrestling. About half of MMA fighters are from a wrestling background.

In judo competition one good throw ends the fight, and if it does go to the ground you have 30 seconds to finish it. It's quick and explosive, if you blink you might miss it.

Wrestling aims to be the guy on top, and extremely aggressive and explosive about it. The "ground and pound" style now common in MMA came not from strikers but from wrestlers.

Even BJJ can finish a fight much faster against the untrained. Go to a BJJ open mat session, see how fast you tap out. Even with my judo training, I would not want to fight someone from BJJ on the ground (I'd rather throw him).



Judo and greco roman focus on throws, which work just fine standing against multiple opponents. In fact, putting someone on the ground is probably easier than knocking them out, considering how poor most people's balance really is. Throwing people is also a lot easier if you don't care about their safety. Common injuries from high amplitude throws include concussion, broken collarbone, dislocated shoulder, and a lot of broken fingers. A good throw can really knock the wind out of someone too, and is really disorienting for anyone not used to being thrown.

Folk style wrestling and BJJ, which make up a good chunk of MMA backgrounds, are indeed more focused on going to the ground, although MMA fighters usually also cross-train in arts like muay thai or boxing for striking. When two grapplers fight each other, the better striker usually wins.



1. any opponent on the ground is not an immediate threat (plus you get a running head start)

2. struggling for a weapon favors the better grappler, plus I would not want to trade punches with a knife-wielder

3. against multiple armed attackers, I'd be a lot less careful and assume that's justified... how gentle I am depends on how gentle I can afford to be, if I don't have time to think about it then the landing is their problem



I totally get that. I find it especially shocking how people from martial arts who can't even handle one opponent can think they would suddenly turn into Steven Seagal when facing many.



Throws worked for me, but I plan to add FMA for realistic weapons and disarming training, and boxing or MT for striking. I did a few months of karate but katas and point sparring aren't for me.

I think Loroi military training would involve teaching their students to sense minds from afar, identify numbers and to passively (think the ability to see movement out the corner of your eye) changes and movements of minds around them.

Those with telekinesis would first be taught how to use their powers offensively and defensively and potentially as a means to protect their comrades (such as dragging a wounded soldier back into cover with TK) and at the high end of the scale, how to combine skill A with skill B and expand that again to multiple simultaneous targets.

The skill to kill a bug with your bare hands when said bug is plated in armour and three times larger than you are... might be difficult, and thus less important in military training than say, being able to restrain a disorderly member of your unit who is trying to kill the senior commander for insulting her choice of mufti shoes...

michael/dealyte: it is the combination of multiple enemies and armed such that kills grapplers, while struggling/grappling/blocking the guy with the knife, his two buddies with knives stab you in the back....can ofcourse be limited by moving the guy you are grappling with so he is between you and the other guy, but this is not easy if there can be more than one angle of attack.

and on a side note, give me four average 12 year olds with guts and one day training, and they would take ANY grappler, any striker and probably just about any mixed MMA stone cold killer, how?

simple, all of them rush in, one for each limb, grab, drag down, stabby stabby and it's done, you might get one, maybe even two, but you would die.

this makes me return to what me sensei said "more than one attacker? Run away." this coming from a guy who could take on your 12 year olds and win, after all karate isn't about grapples, its about being able to attack your opponent with out hem ever being able to land a serious blow, if some one attacks me with a knife i can block that attack then im in their defence, my sensei always said, most of these moves im teaching you will only do any good in a competition, the kicks are good for keeping them at a distance, but if your throwing a punch, aim for the face, that distracts them and gives you an opening to throw them, put them in a chock hold, break their arm (or leg for that matter) and give you time to run away if have to

if their are 4 of them and they rush you, their probably not going to expect you to rush them if it were me, id go for one of them, if they had a knife id use whatever ability i have at my disposal to incapacitate them and as i'v said before, three warnings, then i can legally kill someone in self defence, once the first guy is down its a simple matter of hoping your faster than they are, or that you'll be able to split them up and deal with them piece meal, one by one.

Don't put too much faith in your knife, i know this guy at college, his grandfather was attacked by three kids, he kicked the sh*t out of them, the paramedics turned up and told him they had to rip his shirt off and get him to the hospital, he said he was fine and that it was his favourite shirt so he wasn't going to rip it up, turned out it didn't matter if he wanted to rip up or not....since he'd been stabbed in the back multiple times it was already ruined (he survived). How is this possible i hear you say? simple answer is adrenalin, he was so pumped up he didn't feel a thing, that combined with a martial arts and a situation where you intend to hurt the other person as much as possible....

Yeah though a knife is a pretty huge deal. Any kind of weapon usually is. Obviously an unarmed person can disarm|overpower|whatever else someone with a weapon but it's a pretty uphill deal.

There's also a deal with people throwing down on you one thing. If you don't have anything in your hands, get something. Even keys between your fingers will do a whole lot more.

Struggling lasts like 0.1 seconds against a judoka or a good wrestler. Don't let anyone get behind you, and deal with the closest one first. Stay on your feet, drop him in front of his friends so they have to go over or around him, breaking them up.

A knife is just a more dangerous punch, evade and get control of his arm.




One for each limb, what is this kindergarten? What are they going to crawl on all fours and try to grab your legs? Each grabs an arm like in the movies?

Yes, they WILL try to rush you all at once, even kids know that, that's why you have to maneuver to take them one at a time. Staying in perfect formation is hard, go sideways on them and they'll turn into a shapeless mob or have to regroup.



That's a myth. No matter how many times you warn them makes no difference. If someone swings at you and you knock them down, no warning is needed and you shouldn't expose yourself to danger by giving any. If you get down to finish them off, as some karate schools tell you to do, that's murder no matter how many warnings you gave them.

[quote="junk"]Yeah though a knife is a pretty huge deal. Any kind of weapon usually is. Obviously an unarmed person can disarm|overpower|whatever else someone with a weapon but it's a pretty uphill deal.[quote]

One third of gunshot victims are shot with their own gun. 80% of gunshot victims survive. It's not uncommon for people to be shot 5-6 times with a handgun during a fight and not even notice until later.

Something like 40% of knife victims are stabbed with their own knife. About 70% of knife attacks are never even reported to the police. It takes about 3-4 minutes for someone with multiple cuts in a knife fight to bleed to the point of not being able to fight effectively.

Most of the damage in self-defense doesn't come up until later - holes in major organs, civil suits, etc.