Page 101: And I will take VERY good care of you!

[discord]

or fourth or FIFTH base(marriage) for that matter, in the name of SCIENCE!

[NOMAD]

yes as long as their is no G.L.A.D.O.U.S, or portal devices, i think fan fic shall live on to infinity

[Muttley]

Mr moderator fredgiblet sir, you clearly have sources of information that I have not been able to find. Stats pages for the Outsider characters in some kind of game. Are they canon, and where are they located?

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z206 ... ryl2-1.gif

Thanks - I should have replied earlier I've now got all three GURPS sheets to look at.

Developing the discussion further, I wonder if any medical tests were done on Alex before he came round in the medical bay, or after he passed out during the telepathic interrogation attempt. Specifically, if they've tested to see if he's interfertile with Loroi. . . .

If he is, and they didn't test for it, we could see a Babylon-5 Delenn/Sheridan situation developing - rampant rishathra resulting in unexpected consequences.

On the other hand if he isn't, and they know it, there could be some telepathic jockeying around to see who will be first to - er - see if he can scratch their itch. After all, Beryl's earlier comments indicate that single-sex crews of Loroi ships suffer from something similar to the crews of sailing ships on long voyages, so the mere appearance of Alex, close enough to a Loroi male, must set some pulses racing.

Oh dear. A whole new set of meanings for First Contact Protocols.

[javcs]

Mr moderator fredgiblet sir, you clearly have sources of information that I have not been able to find. Stats pages for the Outsider characters in some kind of game. Are they canon, and where are they located?

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z206 ... ryl2-1.gif

Thanks - I should have replied earlier I've now got all three GURPS sheets to look at.

Developing the discussion further, I wonder if any medical tests were done on Alex before he came round in the medical bay, or after he passed out during the telepathic interrogation attempt. Specifically, if they've tested to see if he's interfertile with Loroi. . . .

If he is, and they didn't test for it, we could see a Babylon-5 Delenn/Sheridan situation developing - rampant rishathra resulting in unexpected consequences.

On the other hand if he isn't, and they know it, there could be some telepathic jockeying around to see who will be first to - er - see if he can scratch their itch. After all, Beryl's earlier comments indicate that single-sex crews of Loroi ships suffer from something similar to the crews of sailing ships on long voyages, so the mere appearance of Alex, close enough to a Loroi male, must set some pulses racing.

Oh dear. A whole new set of meanings for First Contact Protocols.

I'm quite certain that there's Word of Arioch that it's impossible, as Loroi are Soia-Liron biologies, and don't use DNA.

[fredgiblet]

Developing the discussion further, I wonder if any medical tests were done on Alex before he came round in the medical bay, or after he passed out during the telepathic interrogation attempt. Specifically, if they've tested to see if he's interfertile with Loroi. . . .

I'm quite certain that there's Word of Arioch that it's impossible, as Loroi are Soia-Liron biologies, and don't use DNA.

I (EDIT: GAH! meant to have "don't" in here)remember him saying they don't use DNA, but they definitely aren't going to be fertile either way. Outsider may not be diamond-hard Sci-fi, but it's not THAT soft either.

On the other hand if he isn't, and they know it, there could be some telepathic jockeying around to see who will be first to - er - see if he can scratch their itch. After all, Beryl's earlier comments indicate that single-sex crews of Loroi ships suffer from something similar to the crews of sailing ships on long voyages, so the mere appearance of Alex, close enough to a Loroi male, must set some pulses racing.

Maybe, probably not. The Loroi are highly xenophobic in general and the females are used to going long periods without sex (in peacetime there's probably a lot of females who NEVER have sex with a male for their entire life). Human sailing ships were crewed by people used to having sex available pretty much whenever they wanted. Add to that the fact that Alex doesn't look much like a Loroi male and I bet that most of the crew aren't that interested.

It's fun to imagine they are though.

[Razor One]

I'm quite certain that there's Word of Arioch that it's impossible, as Loroi are Soia-Liron biologies, and don't use DNA.

o_O

How do their cells code for proteins then?

I'm fairly certain that Loroi, and any form of advanced carbon based life for that matter, would have DNA. Just not DNA that's compatible with ours. It's possible that it's just biochemical differences (left handed molecules vs right handed molecules), or it could be that they use a different genetic alphabet from ATCG.

[Solemn]

Trying to create a plausible-sounding alternate biochemistry is always a huge can of worms.

Like trying to create a form of FTL or inertial dampeners or space stealth and then trying to make them sound plausible, but moreso (imo) because those sorts of violations of physics have become ingrained into our expectations, whereas relatively few works make an earnest attempt at making alien biology that is both genuinely alien and genuinely grounded in biology.

As I remember it, the actual Word of Arioch was that the Loroi might use DNA or might not, but if they do use DNA it's still part of a system which is different enough from ours that the end result is still something different enough from us that, for narrative purposes, it might as well not be DNA at all. So for example we can't just splice an allele from the Loroi genome here into the human genome there and expect similar results; the gene for yellow eyes or whatever amongst the Loroi might make us grow more hair on our genitals, or, much more likely, might just cause cancer.

o_O

How do their cells code for proteins then?

We earthlings use RNA for that purpose, sir. Not DNA. DNA codes for RNA, RNA codes for proteins and also acts as an enzyme in certain circumstances and also does a few other things and is awesome.

I'm fairly certain that Loroi, and any form of advanced carbon based life for that matter, would have DNA. Just not DNA that's compatible with ours. It's possible that it's just biochemical differences (left handed molecules vs right handed molecules), or it could be that they use a different genetic alphabet from ATCG.

Different bases make it into a different molecule.

I know someone is likely to try to point to GFAJ-1 as something that pokes a hole in this line of reasoning.

Don't.

It might be really close to our own long-term storage solution, or it might be very different. If it's very similar, still a deoxyribose acid, we'd probably call it something like sDNA (Soia deoxyribose nucleic acid) and refer to our own as tDNA (t for Terran)... but there may be other ways to code for RNA.

Look into older theories on the pre-DNA world and you'll find a lot of proposals for alternative, non-DNA means of coding for RNA. Look up pre-Watson and Crick proposals for the structure of DNA and you'll find a number of once-plausible assortments of our own base pair sets arranged in formats that are very unlike the actual double helix model, sufficiently so that if we encountered something similar to those arrangements in an alien life form we might decide differentiate between those forms to the extent of not even calling the alien form "DNA" in order to make sure the distinction is as clear as possible.

[Arioch]

As I remember it, the actual Word of Arioch was that the Loroi might use DNA or might not, but if they do use DNA it's still part of a system which is different enough from ours that the end result is still something different enough from us that, for narrative purposes, it might as well not be DNA at all. So for example we can't just splice an allele from the Loroi genome here into the human genome there and expect similar results; the gene for yellow eyes or whatever amongst the Loroi might make us grow more hair on our genitals, or, much more likely, might just cause cancer.

That's pretty much my position. There is a slightly more detailed discussion of the subject in this post, but the conclusion is: Loroi and Humans are not reproductively compatible.

To answer the earlier question: yes, the Loroi did extensive tests on Alex before reviving him, and they are well aware of this incompatibility.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Whether or not it is intentional, I get the feeling that Beryl is testing his reactions. The Loroi seem to have a rather strong sense of personal space, quite possibly reinforced by their dislike of touching strangers. Fireblade may toss Alex against the wall for violations of personal space, but Beryl doesn't seem to have quite the same problem with proximity.

Prolonged periods of isolation are very detrimental to humans, but you can expect that most people chosen for work in deep space are going to be on the side of the bell curve that is better suited to coping with isolation than the others. It may not be the case for Loroi, but in many places, long periods of solitary confinement are considered tantamount to torture, so it is perhaps not without risk that they subjected him to those conditions. However, I think the reason for isolating him has more to do with the rest of the Tempest's crew rather than any kind of concern for Alex's well being, for better or worse.

The Loroi as a whole are rather xenophobic, and Alex's very existence calls into question deeply important conceits about Loroi superiority. So whether or not he is physically attractive, his presence is almost certainly an unwanted distraction at best and a detriment to morale at worst.

As for why Beryl wasn't allowed to go see him. She already got into an argument with Stillstorm once on his behalf, and Loroi are not the kind of beings who know a lot about tact. Stillstorm doesn't like being opposed, so she probably isn't keen on the idea of crew members becoming attached to the strange pink alien. Especially if she's going to have to start exterminating them in the near future.

Dang, Beryl is adorable in panel 3 though...

[Absalom]

Different bases make it into a different molecule.

I know someone is likely to try to point to GFAJ-1 as something that pokes a hole in this line of reasoning.

Don't.

Actually, if the GFAJ-1 arsenic thing had turned out then it really would have just been an alternate molecule for the same base, and thus still should have counted as DNA. Thus, it wouldn't have impacted on the "Different bases make it into a different molecule" bit, and your line of reasoning would have held true anyways.

Not that it matters, since that apparently got disproven.

[Michael]

...
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.....
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I don't like biology....

[daelyte]

http://www.xenology.info/Xeno/12.4.htm

We know that slight changes in the environment can cause enormous variations in planetary biochemistry. Nucleic acids, genes and codons may not be needed by ETs, or they may be essential but in permuted forms. For an alien/human mating to prove viable, many complicated and highly unlikely coincidences must occur. The two species must have identical amino acid sequences for proteins, the same optical rotation in their molecules, matching numbers of chromosomes with identical size and shape, the same kinds of genes located on the same chromosomes at the same locations, etc., etc. Humans cannot even produce viable interspecies offspring with their own immediate ancestors -- apes, chimps, and other primates.

[Solemn]

matching numbers of chromosomes with identical size and shape, the same kinds of genes located on the same chromosomes at the same locations, etc., etc. Humans cannot even produce viable interspecies offspring with their own immediate ancestors -- apes, chimps, and other primates.

These are half-truths, actually.

There are species wherein mismatching numbers of chromosomes are in fact part of the sex determination mechanism. The most extreme cases of such sex-determining mechanisms that I can recall are haplodiploid species; generally, fertile males will be incapable of fathering sons, as they are the product of unfertilized, haploid eggs which develop into haploid individuals. A haplodiploid species with, say, for example, 64 chromosomes for the female will only have 32 chromosomes for the male.

This works because terrestrial gametes are themselves haploid cells, so the female's haploid gametes will have the same number of chromosomes as the male's haploid gamete, though her gametes will have been produced from what was at one point a diploid nucleus.

There are also (chomosome)(null) sex determining mechanisms, some of which are still poorly understood (or at least were when I was learning about them). One gender has two sex-linked chromosomes, and the other has only one, with no additional chromosome to replace it. So you'd have a creature whose females (or males or hermaphrodites) have 46 chromosomes, and whose males (or females or hermaphrodites) have only 45. Because both 46 and 45 chromosomed individuals are perfectly viable, and only one individual in each mating pair is likely to have one missing chromosome, a 22-chromosomed sperm is really unlikely to touch a 22-chromosomed egg and produce a nonviable 44-chromosomed form. However, even with perfectly matching chromosome numbers for human sexes, you will still sometimes end up with nonviable or nonfertile or otherwise disadvantaged individuals with one extra or one missing chromosome, so really, no guarantees.

Some shuffling and rearrangement of gene loci occurs all the time. The issue of gene loci does in fact become insurmountable after a certain point, but just not quite being 100% spot-on with every single gene is not a dealbreaker. Not among modern humans, not anywhere. XX-male humans with an active SRY gene transferred to a locus on an X chromosome are just as fertile and capable as XY-male humans, because the activation of the SRY gene is vastly, vastly more important than its exact location.

Cross-species fertility is rare and difficult, largely because we are much better at categorizing species now than we were a few scant centuries ago, but it still happens. Tiger and lion hybrids have even been observed to occasionally defy Haldane's Rule, albeit not easily. The males, while capable of fertilizing ova, are really really really really unlikely to do so. And apes, chimps, bonobos and such are not our "immediate" ancestors; there were several intermediate species. Denisovians and Neanderthals are (iirc) sister species, not necessarily antecedents, but the known genetic links between them and various (though not all) populations of modern humans speaks to whether we could interbreed with our immediate ancestors.

As an aside and while I'm on the subject, Jurassic Park lied to you about the SRY being a constant for all sex determination in all earthly life. If they'd said "all mammals" work on a basically female genetic template with a single male gene causing differentiation, that would have been much more accurate (though there are exceptions), but not particularly useful when genetically engineering dinosaurs. The gene of sex determination for birds was not known until well into the 2000s; I think it was isolated in 2007 or so. Birds are ZZ-ZW, with the males as ZZ and the females being ZW. Having multiple copies of the androgen-producing gene on the Z chromosome makes a bird male; only one functional androgen gene will not. So if dinosaurs follow avian sex determination patterns then denying them androgens and forcing them to be all female would be possible, with modern knowledge. However, with the situation as it stood when the book and later the movie were written? No. We didn't even know if there was a specific gene for androgens, or it was just the lack of a feminizing W-linked gene, or a complex of multiple genes on each avian sex chromosome. Either Dr. Crichton knew exactly what he was doing and included that in the book to indicate that the Park's geneticist was bullshitting (which really handily explains the eggs and such; much easier to swallow than that a few random frog genes made the dinosaurs able to swap genders as needed), or Crichton was the one who was bullshitting. I prefer to believe the former, though the latter is significantly more likely.

And all of the things I've said here are also grotesque oversimplifications.

Basically once you go above the individual RNA strand level, things get all... complicated.

[Hālian]

https://boards.4chan.org/co/res/39854297#p39855112

What the hell is taking so long? It's because he wants to think out all the designs and backgrounds and make them in 3D right? But why does he care? Is he trying to be like Star Trek and make certain things accurate? Or is he just slow? Why hasn't he split the burden with a 3D artist or a second artist to help speed things up? No man is an island.

[CaptainChaos]

So no Human/Loroi hybrids, oh well there's always adoption!

I could be wrong but I think Arioch mentioned earlier that the similarities between Humans and Loroi would be a future plot point about who the Loroi are descended from (the Sola?). This could be a Farscape like situation where the Sola harvested early Humans from Earth and genetically modified them over time into the Loroi. Maybe they'll start talking about the differences once the shuttle ride starts, after all they will have "many days" for Q&A.

Actually, after re-reading comics 100 and 101 I have a question about the 51st strike group and system defense, so the strike force jumps into the system to get repaired and resupplied while sending out a shuttle to the system captial at Seren (which is apparently "many days" travel from where the strike force is within the system), so there must be a forward staging and resupply base/area on the outskirts of the system. My question is what exactly is this resupply position, is it a space station or is it a collection of supply ships that is meeting up with the strike group (to save on travel time for the strike group)?

[javcs]

So no Human/Loroi hybrids, oh well there's always adoption!

I could be wrong but I think Arioch mentioned earlier that the similarities between Humans and Loroi would be a future plot point about who the Loroi are descended from (the Sola?). This could be a Farscape like situation where the Sola harvested early Humans from Earth and genetically modified them over time into the Loroi. Maybe they'll start talking about the differences once the shuttle ride starts, after all they will have "many days" for Q&A.

Actually, after re-reading comics 100 and 101 I have a question about the 51st strike group and system defense, so the strike force jumps into the system to get repaired and resupplied while sending out a shuttle to the system captial at Seren (which is apparently "many days" travel from where the strike force is within the system), so there must be a forward staging and resupply base/area on the outskirts of the system. My question is what exactly is this resupply position, is it a space station or is it a collection of supply ships that is meeting up with the strike group (to save on travel time for the strike group)?

They're not in Seren. They've met a resupply convoy in one of the dead zone systems - the shuttle is transferring Alex and company to one of the convoy's escort ships, the escort ship will be providing the ride to Seren.

[Overkill Engine]

Plenty of time for an unplanned crash landing on a lush deserted jungle world with gratuitous bikini survival action!

*unfortunately it is Alex in the bikini. Terran garb is not as durable as Loroi clothing.

[TrashMan]

Technicly, with good enough knowledge of biology and manipulation, you should be able to create offspring. If you know how human DNA transmits data and how Loroi DNA transmits data, you can basicly create "artificial" life-forms.
Altough it would be more classified as "genetic experiment" or "sin against nature" than offspring.

[Michael]

I think I speak for many men when I say that the incompatibility of Human/Loroi DNA would be no reason not to try ....For science of course....

[Razor One]

So no Human/Loroi hybrids, oh well there's always adoption!

Technicly, with good enough knowledge of biology and manipulation, you should be able to create offspring. If you know how human DNA transmits data and how Loroi DNA transmits data, you can basicly create "artificial" life-forms.
Altough it would be more classified as "genetic experiment" or "sin against nature" than offspring.

I think I speak for many men when I say that the incompatibility of Human/Loroi DNA would be no reason not to try ....For science of course....

I am both humbled and honoured that I am not the only one that immediately thought of creating a genetic abomination, a sin against nature, a blasphemy of life IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE!

Let us cackle maniacally together!