Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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Arioch
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

What I meant by "dark" was issues of mental illness and the Loroi system for dealing with crime and unrepentant antisocial behavior, which is an un-fun topic. Children in Loroi society don't have any rights until they reach adulthood, and so if a child is insane or a sociopath or a juvenile delinquent that won't respond to treatment or correction, she probably won't survive until adulthood. In time of war, systems break down and you end up with more adult "deviants", but that's a subject that starts to intrude into territory that should be covered by the narrative.
RedDwarfIV wrote:Out of interest, why do the thrusters on the Highland not point through the centre of mass? The way they're pointed, they should flip end over end when they fire.
Those nozzles are secondary thrusters for use in atmosphere; they sit on top of the main engines (revealed when the vanes open) that can only be used in space. Because the thrusters sit above the center of gravity, they have to be angled up a bit. They're mainly used for ascent in atmosphere, in which the angle shouldn't be a problem and I think may be beneficial.

If you look at the engines of the Space Shuttle, they're also angled up. I think this is mainly because it's strapped to a tank for most of its ascent, but there's also a stage at the end after tank separation where the engines are still burning, and the shuttle doesn't seem to have a problem with flipping or tumbling. As with the Space Shuttle's engines, the Highland's thruster nozzles can gimbal to help control attitude, so that's probably got a lot to do with it.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Ah. It just looked like they were on a 45* angle when I looked at it earlier. I couldn't get figures on the actual angle of the Space Shuttle engines, other than that they gimbal by +/- 10*.

After a more thorough look at the drawing, I'd say that the vector of thrust probably does go through the centre of mass.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Nemo »

If theres anything KSP is actually good at teaching, its that center of volume != center of mass.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

I imagine that the center of mass changes dramatically as you consume fuel, so flexibility in fine-tuning the thrust direction will naturally be very important.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by saint of m »

Asuming a war ship lasts that long, if an out of date war ship is to retire, do they

Put it in a fleet of other retired ships and park it someplace

Sink sink it and make reefs out of it.

Recycle it for parts that might be useful and put the rest on the scrap heap

Demilitarize it and sell it to a civilian to use for cargo or personnel transport.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

saint of m wrote:Asuming a war ship lasts that long, if an out of date war ship is to retire, do they
Put it in a fleet of other retired ships and park it someplace
Sink sink it and make reefs out of it.
Recycle it for parts that might be useful and put the rest on the scrap heap
Demilitarize it and sell it to a civilian to use for cargo or personnel transport.
In the current war, in which there is always a shortage of ships, it's unlikely that many warships will be retired. If a ship is becoming so decrepit or outdated that it can't do its job anymore, they'll repair or refit it if they can. If it's so far gone that such repair wouldn't be cost effective, they would cannibalize it for parts and scrap it.

In peacetime, when there is presumably a fixed operating budget, then older ships that get replaced by newer ships would mostly be mothballed, in case they may be needed later. If a mothballed ship deteriorates or becomes hopelessly outdated, it would be scrapped. But I imagine that these things could last a long time in a space dock... we're still using B-52's that they stopped making in 1962, and the plan is to keep using them until 2040, and I think the main source for parts is all the old B-52's sitting in the boneyard.

Most Loroi warships would probably not convert well to civilian use. I don't think a demilitarized B-52 would make a very effective civilian transport.

Most starships larger than 100m are not designed to re-enter atmosphere, so getting one into the ocean without it burning up during reentry or being obliterated on impact would surely be more trouble than it would be worth.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Plus, if you completely vent the atmosphere, and remove both fuel and life support materials [water and such] then you can prevent rusting, corrosion and oxidation of the spacecraft's materials. It would last a lot longer in mothball that way.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by cacambo43 »

Arioch,

In the Jump Drive page of the Insider section, your answer to one of the questions mentions that - based on technology, the science of hyperjumps, and safety - it takes about a week to transit each star system. But in the comic, Alex mentions that he's been in the cell for "at least a week" (which would mean it doesn't appear to him to be two weeks, else he'd have said "at least 2 weeks") and that they made "several" jumps. Is this because your answer in Insider refers to human jump tech, or are the Loroi playing it a little risky to get him to Seren as fast as possible? Or is Alex's sense of time that messed up due to his incarceration? The "scary" upshot of that is that he'd have been locked up for several weeks, in that case. Terrible treatment indeed.

CJSF

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Zakharra »

cacambo43 wrote:Arioch,

In the Jump Drive page of the Insider section, your answer to one of the questions mentions that - based on technology, the science of hyperjumps, and safety - it takes about a week to transit each star system. But in the comic, Alex mentions that he's been in the cell for "at least a week" (which would mean it doesn't appear to him to be two weeks, else he'd have said "at least 2 weeks") and that they made "several" jumps. Is this because your answer in Insider refers to human jump tech, or are the Loroi playing it a little risky to get him to Seren as fast as possible? Or is Alex's sense of time that messed up due to his incarceration? The "scary" upshot of that is that he'd have been locked up for several weeks, in that case. Terrible treatment indeed.

CJSF

One explanation that occurred to me is the one week to transit a system was to cross an entire system. The Loroi could have jumped from the system they were in to another system, but since they don't need to cross the system to head to the next jump point (the systems might not be lined up like beads). Instead the next system they need it off at an angle from the system. All they might need to do is to get the right angle so they can jump out, that requiring only a day or so of travel in-system. If the system they needed was on the other side of the current system, that would require the one week to get through the gravity well so they could jump. Otherwise they just might need to transit to a point only a few hundred million(billion?) kilometers away so they are lined up to the next system.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

cacambo43 wrote:In the Jump Drive page of the Insider section, your answer to one of the questions mentions that - based on technology, the science of hyperjumps, and safety - it takes about a week to transit each star system. But in the comic, Alex mentions that he's been in the cell for "at least a week" (which would mean it doesn't appear to him to be two weeks, else he'd have said "at least 2 weeks") and that they made "several" jumps. Is this because your answer in Insider refers to human jump tech, or are the Loroi playing it a little risky to get him to Seren as fast as possible? Or is Alex's sense of time that messed up due to his incarceration? The "scary" upshot of that is that he'd have been locked up for several weeks, in that case. Terrible treatment indeed.
The line says "several days to a week", and that's correct; the time required to transit a system before you can make the next jump is a function of how fast you can move in real space, and how far away the next jump zone is. If you were crossing a Sol-sized system with jump zones on opposite ends about ~10 AU apart, and if you maintain a typical transit velocity of 3,000 km/s, that transit takes 5 or 6 days. If the system is smaller (and most stars are), and/or you're in a hurry and go faster, the transit will take less time, and as Zakharra mentioned, jump zones aren't necessarily on exact opposite ends of the system. Aside from spending fuel, there is no negative impact in speeding up the in-system transit, as long as you arrive at the next outgoing jump zone on the correct vector (which usually requires spending more fuel to slow down again before jumping).

Alex is unclear on how much time has passed because he has no external time reference in the cell; they turn down the lights when they notice he's fallen asleep, and they feed him on some kind of schedule, but it obviously can't be related in any way to Earth's day/night cycle. Alex is also unclear on exactly how many jumps have been made, since some of them happened while he was asleep.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by cacambo43 »

Thanks for clearing that up for me Arioch. (and thanks for your input too, Zakharra).

CJSF

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Why the Loroi are Blue....

Post by Rematog »

Hello, I’m new to the board, been following the strip for 3-4 years. Recently I’ve started reading the background pages on the site. I’ve come up with an observation based on statements in the Loroi backgrounds.

First, the Givens (cannon) : a 1 in 10 male, 9 in 10 females birth ratio. Life span of 400 years, adulthood happens quickly, around age 12. Maintain health and reproductive capabilities until very late in life. Sexual “Encounters” are arranged and “eugenics” are one of the considerations in making these arrangements. Loroi females can hold male sperm for a limited period of time before fertilization, so conceiving is not dependant on the “Encounter” happening during ovation for fertilization to occur. Please let me know if I’ve misunderstood any of these cannon concepts.

Assumption: Based on the idea of Loroi females holding sperm, I’m going to assume that “encounters” are highly effective producing a live birth. I’ll assume a 90% success rate.

Assumption: Average Loroi has a 300 year reproductive span, i.e. from age 12 to about 312. This means an individual will be “available” for “encounters” for 300/400 or 75% of their life. I understand not all will live to 400, but I’m also thinking few very young Loroi females (<30) will not be offered “encounters” due to not having proved themselves yet.

Assumption: 1/3 of females never mate. Granted this is a shakey assumption, but it’s based on statements that access to “encounters” is arranged, has a eugenics aspect and is earned by achievement. If this percentage is reduced, it only makes my final conclusion stronger, so I believe this is actually a conservative assumption, as you will see. 10% of males never mate – eugenics.

Assumption: The average life span of the Loroi population at large was 300 years prior to the beginning of the war. While an individual may live to 400 or more, some will die much younger due to accident, disease, etc. The average life is used for population replacement purposes, i.e. need 1 live birth for every 300 in population for a stable population. Before the war.

Based on the above I ran the numbers for a sample population of 3 million (a small colony say).

Births needed = 3,000,000 / 300 yr life = 10,000 births per year.

Encounters needed = 10,000 births / 90% births per encounter = 11,111.

Reproductive female population is: 3,000,000 x 90% (female ratio) x 75% (reproductive part of life) = 2,025,000. Female population getting access = 2/3 x 2,025,000 = 1,345,000.

Reproductive male population = 3,000,000 x 10% (male ratio) x 75% % (reproductive part of life) = 225,000. Male population getting access = 90% x 225,000 = 202,500.

Therefore: Average % of Eligible females having Encounter each year = 11,111/1,345,000 = 0.83% per year, less than 1%. Inversely, mean time between sexual encounters is 121 years. This is the point I wished to make. They must live an almost monastic existence with regard to sex.

For males, slightly better. Average % of Eligible males having encounter each year =11,111/202,500 = 5.5%, or inversely, mean time between sexual encounters is 18 years, better, but still not exactly a Human teenager’s dream of a world full of women….

No wonder the race is blue.

It’s simple logic really, a very long lived race with a high percentage of births to sex encounters ratio will have to be having very, very little sex to have a stable population OR have very effective birth control.

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Re: Why the Loroi are Blue....

Post by Jericho »

Rematog wrote:Hello, I’m new to the board, been following the strip for 3-4 years. Recently I’ve started reading the background pages on the site. I’ve come up with an observation based on statements in the Loroi backgrounds.

First, the Givens (cannon) : a 1 in 10 male, 9 in 10 females birth ratio. Life span of 400 years, adulthood happens quickly, around age 12. Maintain health and reproductive capabilities until very late in life. Sexual “Encounters” are arranged and “eugenics” are one of the considerations in making these arrangements. Loroi females can hold male sperm for a limited period of time before fertilization, so conceiving is not dependant on the “Encounter” happening during ovation for fertilization to occur. Please let me know if I’ve misunderstood any of these cannon concepts.

Assumption: Based on the idea of Loroi females holding sperm, I’m going to assume that “encounters” are highly effective producing a live birth. I’ll assume a 90% success rate.

Assumption: Average Loroi has a 300 year reproductive span, i.e. from age 12 to about 312. This means an individual will be “available” for “encounters” for 300/400 or 75% of their life. I understand not all will live to 400, but I’m also thinking few very young Loroi females (<30) will not be offered “encounters” due to not having proved themselves yet.

Assumption: 1/3 of females never mate. Granted this is a shakey assumption, but it’s based on statements that access to “encounters” is arranged, has a eugenics aspect and is earned by achievement. If this percentage is reduced, it only makes my final conclusion stronger, so I believe this is actually a conservative assumption, as you will see. 10% of males never mate – eugenics.

Assumption: The average life span of the Loroi population at large was 300 years prior to the beginning of the war. While an individual may live to 400 or more, some will die much younger due to accident, disease, etc. The average life is used for population replacement purposes, i.e. need 1 live birth for every 300 in population for a stable population. Before the war.

Based on the above I ran the numbers for a sample population of 3 million (a small colony say).

Births needed = 3,000,000 / 300 yr life = 10,000 births per year.

Encounters needed = 10,000 births / 90% births per encounter = 11,111.

Reproductive female population is: 3,000,000 x 90% (female ratio) x 75% (reproductive part of life) = 2,025,000. Female population getting access = 2/3 x 2,025,000 = 1,345,000.

Reproductive male population = 3,000,000 x 10% (male ratio) x 75% % (reproductive part of life) = 225,000. Male population getting access = 90% x 225,000 = 202,500.

Therefore: Average % of Eligible females having Encounter each year = 11,111/1,345,000 = 0.83% per year, less than 1%. Inversely, mean time between sexual encounters is 121 years. This is the point I wished to make. They must live an almost monastic existence with regard to sex.

For males, slightly better. Average % of Eligible males having encounter each year =11,111/202,500 = 5.5%, or inversely, mean time between sexual encounters is 18 years, better, but still not exactly a Human teenager’s dream of a world full of women….

No wonder the race is blue.

It’s simple logic really, a very long lived race with a high percentage of births to sex encounters ratio will have to be having very, very little sex to have a stable population OR have very effective birth control.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by fredgiblet »

Males typically have sex very frequently. Some of the slack is taken up by females with permission to breed appearing to get several encounters, that doesn't quite make up the difference though. I personally expect that there's a "caretaker" caste of females that are either sterile or have desirable genetics and thus are expected to breed constantly that handle the needs of males between regular breeding encounters.
Jericho wrote:WOW... the nerd is strong in this one :shock:
While recognizing that you are likely joking I'll point out anyway that you are an active member of a board for a webcomic that hasn't posted a new page in a year, the nerd is strong in ALL of us.

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Re: Why the Loroi are Blue....

Post by Arioch »

Rematog wrote:Hello, I’m new to the board, been following the strip for 3-4 years. Recently I’ve started reading the background pages on the site. I’ve come up with an observation based on statements in the Loroi backgrounds.
...
Therefore: Average % of Eligible females having Encounter each year = 11,111/1,345,000 = 0.83% per year, less than 1%. Inversely, mean time between sexual encounters is 121 years. This is the point I wished to make. They must live an almost monastic existence with regard to sex.

For males, slightly better. Average % of Eligible males having encounter each year =11,111/202,500 = 5.5%, or inversely, mean time between sexual encounters is 18 years, better, but still not exactly a Human teenager’s dream of a world full of women….

It’s simple logic really, a very long lived race with a high percentage of births to sex encounters ratio will have to be having very, very little sex to have a stable population OR have very effective birth control.
Welcome to the board. I think your general conclusions are near the mark in that many Loroi females will have only a few sexual encounters during their lives, and most Loroi males won't have a many-sex-partners-per-day existence. But I think there are some incorrect assumptions that make the numbers seem more bleak than they should be.

The first one is that Loroi don't have anywhere near a 400 year average lifespan. Loroi can potentially live 400 years, but most don't. Many Loroi of the warrior class die at a young age, even in peacetime, and more die in wartime; There has barely been a 400 year span in Loroi history without multiple wars. I'd suggest an average lifespan perhaps between 150-200 years, though that doesn't change the numbers all that much.

The much bigger impact is the fertility rate. Because human females are only fertile for about two days per month, it takes a lot of mating encounters (unless they are carefully timed) to produce a pregnancy. The Loroi ability to store the male gametes for several weeks avoids this ovulation-roulette and dramatically increases fertility rates, but there will be other factors that limit it. I think if both partners were young and optimally fertile, the chance of pregnancy from a single mating might be as high as 80%, but not everyone will be optimally fertile, especially as they age. I can imagine fertility rates dropping dramatically, especially for females, past age 50 or so. However, it's usually the older females who have higher status, and so they will still be the ones occupying a significant portion of the males' time when mating rights become restricted.

It's also worth mentioning that a matching between a male and female usually consists of multiple matings spread across several days. This is partly to increase the chance of fertilization, but also partly to facilitate the other aspects of the rendezvous, both pleasurable and professional (if the male is an adviser or therapist, for example).

Finally, even in peacetime when mating restrictions are most in force, the overall Loroi population is almost never static. Even if there are areas that have reached some kind of limit, there is somewhere else that needs more population (especially new colonies). Males in a capped population will either move somewhere else, or females will be brought in from elsewhere to mate. Something like a very small research colony on a barren world with no room for growth would probably have very few males, or no males at all -- the females would often have to go offworld to mate.

In ancient times, overpopulation was a recurring problem, but one that was continually checked by almost constant internal warfare.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by TrashMan »

Warfare hasn't really done much to cull our numbers.

I'm having a hard time imagining Loroi having a stable population, given all the biological hard-wiredness for a population boom.
Most of the population female?
Rapid maturation?
Long lifespan?
Sexually active for most of it?
And (also very important) - ability to store gamets.

A pretty nasty combo. If it was all of it, but without the gamet storing ability...or if it was all of it but with a reduced lifespan... or all of it but with more balanced population.... then I could see it.

But all of it together just makes Loroi a recipie for disaster.
Ironicly, the zerg (I'll out-pop you and swarm you) approach is kinda more fitting for a more primitive race. (when speaking of balance)

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I will own "The Nerd is strong with this one..."

Post by Rematog »

It's a fair cop....

I have a very good, IMNSHO, essay on "Is there Money in Star Trek?" that reconciles the “we don’t have money” and yet have “Credits” dilemma and tries to begin to explain the “economy”, admittedly only scratching the surface. I’ve also estimated the Death Star’s “usable living space” as 58 million sq. kilometers, or 38% of the land area of earth….. Ask and I’ll post.

Regarding the multiple matings in 2-3 days, I’m aware of this and that is why I referred to them as “Encounters” not matings.
If the average life span was 150 years, then time between encounters would drop to about 60 years for female Loroi and 9 years for males.

I was not arguing that the population was stable, I was using that as a simplifying assumption. Yes, the ability go grow while not quite that of rabbits, is still certainly frightening….

Per 1000 of population with a time between births of 2 years (easily possible for humans), so…:

1000 x 90% female x 75% of childbearing age x 67% genetically acceptable x 50% birth/year = 225 births

This is not quite a simple 22.5% annual population growth rate, due to the 12 year time to mature, but it would be fast. In 52 years, the population would be 100 times the starting population at this rate, taking into account time to mature (i.e. births in any one year are based on total population 12 years prior) and an average death rate of 0.7% ( 1 / 150 year life span). Over a long term, this works out to a 8.9 percent growth rate, compounding annually.

So, in a long term war, the Loroi could have almost 9% of their population killed per year, over and above “natural causes” and maintain a stable population. To put this in perspective, for the current US population, this would be an annual war caused death total of 28 million per year……

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Re: I will own "The Nerd is strong with this one..."

Post by GeoModder »

Rematog wrote:So, in a long term war, the Loroi could have almost 9% of their population killed per year, over and above “natural causes” and maintain a stable population. To put this in perspective, for the current US population, this would be an annual war caused death total of 28 million per year……
Comes suspiciciously close to the average annual WWII USSR population loss (if you take the higher estimation of 50 million)...
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USSR WW2 Losses......

Post by Rematog »

Geo,

But the USSR couldn't sustain those losses for 4 more years, much less 40.

The Loroi, with this social structure, seem a little ants like to me, in that you can't easily kill them off...they breed fast.

Again, looking at the numbers. For each million of pre-war population, you have:

900,000 Females

675,000 Females of child rearing age AND 225,000 not, of which say 100K can still function as warriors

450,000 Females genetically desireable for breeding, AND 225,000 not, so call this another 150,000 to 200,000 possible warriors.

225,000 births per year.

So, if the 250,000 to 300,000 warriors (per million of population) can hold for the first 12 years, then the Loroi can field roughly an additional 200,000 warriors PER YEAR.

For a planet with a stable population of a billion, this is 200 million new warriors entering battle per year. And, even if NONE of this ever return (except upon their shield), assuming the economy could arm them, they could still be producing 200 million warriors a year, a century later. That's scary! The Loroi would not be afraid of a war of attritation.

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Re: USSR WW2 Losses......

Post by GeoModder »

Rematog wrote:Geo,

But the USSR couldn't sustain those losses for 4 more years, much less 40.
No human nation/culture could, that's true enough.


On another note, did you include mortality rates during the adolescent "band" stage? While not excessively high, it is likely a fair bit higher then human youth mortality rates before becoming an adult.
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