Armor values

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

True to his word, Arioch just recently standardized all the armor values present on the Umiak/Loroi/Terran ship class pages. All the ships aren't updated yet, but it does give you a bit of a better understanding of the construction of the various races ships.


Though I will say the America class cruiser having 2.6 times the armor rating of a Bennet class scout doesn't reassure me all that much considering that the bell bassically got bisected by one shot. I'm not sure the relatively heavy armor on the cruiser would have helped. I get the feeling that even though screens don't protect against railguns, physical armor isn't necessarily all that good at defending against plasma focus. At least on the level that human ships are armored (Umiak ships with armor ratings of 300-600 might be another story.)

[Wintermute]

Yeah, I will say the discrepancy in armor-rating between the different races is a lot higher than I expected.

The Umiak armor values are crazy high.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

Yeah, I will say the discrepancy in armor-rating between the different races is a lot higher than I expected.

The Umiak armor values are crazy high.

It makes perfect sense for humanity, since we're working off less effective materials due to our lower tech base.


And it's already been established that the Umiak's defining trait aside from massive numbers/industry, is that their ships are tanks. So crazy high armor values should be expected. Their ships also generally look more sturdily constructed than Loroi or Terran ships, which are sleek and long.

[Ktrain]

Well for one, humanity has never been in actual space combat. Our designs are based of the theoretical combat conditions just like the pre-WWI Battleship fleets (which generally had many small guns over big guns and focused on armor over speed). Actual combat brings about innovation; there may be materials that are already in existence on Earth that no one has thought of utilizing for military purposes because of our current theoretical mindset and lack of practical experience.

Though it is kind of disheartening to see such huge gaps.

[dfacto]

The values are kind of odd though.

The Umiak have no real turrets, so they most likely fight jousting style, as we've seen in the last few panels. It makes sense to have massive armor if you fight like that.

But then why wouldn't the Loroi also beef up their armor, or concentrate it on the front of their ships? They prefer mobility to armor, yes, but even their ships don't have true multi-directional turrets (with the exception of the Rapier), which means that they more or less have to joust as well (or perhaps their entire tactic is based on catching the enemy from the side/back with their Farsensing data?)

Humans are very unlikely to fight like that at all, and the cruiser sketch shows 360 degree turrets. In fact if we had Loroi weapons I imagine our tactics would be to steadily cruise just out of Umiak range and take potshots at them. If they try to run, we'd just follow them until they jumped. If they charge us we'd accelerate ahead and shoot at them the whole time.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

But then why wouldn't the Loroi also beef up their armor, or concentrate it on the front of their ships? They prefer mobility to armor, yes, but even their ships don't have true multi-directional turrets (with the exception of the Rapier), which means that they more or less have to joust as well (or perhaps their entire tactic is based on catching the enemy from the side/back with their Farsensing data?)

The Loroi probably figure defensive screens (which presumably can be concentrated) make a better investment than physical armor. The Largest Loroi ships are only about as well armored as Umiak Mediums.

Though it is kind of disheartening to see such huge gaps.

Shouldn't be surprising though. Not with the gap we already knew about in weaponry and engines.

[BattleRaptor]

Maybe that points out psychological issues with the Umiak/Loroi.
Putting guns that can shoot backwards and flying away from your enemy while you whack them hasnt even been considered.

Much like ww1 combat was straight up slaughter becuase the commanders on both sides refused to consider anything but the frontal massed assault, Courage over sanity(at least from current perspective).

Maybe the current war is the Lorois version of ww1 style tactics.
The Umiak are certainly acting such.



Alex watches the battle "hey why dont you put your guns so thy can shoot backwards, and use your superior speed to enlarge the engagement range and Umiak Missile time till Intercept so you have far longer to intercept enemy missiles. and then blow the hell out of the Umiak ships beyond there own engagement range."

Simulation of every Loroi on the command deck,

"Why didnt We think of that!"


Of course this wouldnt make a good WebComic..
But I have always wondered why the Loroi didnt do this when they can engage a Umiak fleet though an entire system and remain out of Umiak beam range.
IF shields are a problem, they can have firecontrol coodinate fire between ships so Beam Impacts on enemy ships to overpower shields.
Loroi ships flying directly away from Umiak missiles increases the time they take to reach to double, allowing double the shots to take them out.

The fact the Loroi dont do this without any explanation why they cant does make them seem a tad stupid.


Also armor numbers dont make sense.. at all.
Terran ship weapons are more powerful then Loroi/Umiak weapons in general.. yet our armor is utter crap.

Armor needs 2 values
Physical Resistance/Particle Resistance.

With Terran ships having quite high physical resistance.

Otherwise Terran ships wouldnt bother with armor when it cant defend them agasint anything.

Real world Navy as an example... increasing armor on ships was found to be ineffective during ww2.
Most anti ship missiles today couldnt penetrate the armor on a ww2 cruiser.
Most ships today dont have any real armor... they instead use that extra weight for more weapons and speed.
Which is why anti-ship weapons could have smaller warheads.

[Ktrain]

Perhaps neither the Loroi or the Umiak are very imaginative as cultures.... but standard Loroi battle protocol is to hit and run like those dang Mangudai from AOEII. We are currently watching the Loroi do something which is against standard battle procedure.

If the Loroi did run and gun like you suggest, Umiak might focus more on increasing ship speed over armor though how adaptive both parties are militarily and culturally hasn't been really flushed out.

[dfacto]

I think it comes down to sci-fi reality over "reality". In space whoever has the longer weapons range wins, so the Loroi should absolutely devastate the Umiak. But then that would make for a pretty boring war.

"Yeah, we pretty much own them thoroughly, but they keep building new ships for us to shoot down. Honestly, these guys are getting tedious."

[fredgiblet]

Alex watches the battle "hey why dont you put your guns so thy can shoot backwards, and use your superior speed to enlarge the engagement range and Umiak Missile time till Intercept so you have far longer to intercept enemy missiles. and then blow the hell out of the Umiak ships beyond there own engagement range."

Why do that when you can use your superior speed to outrun the Umiak, turn around, shoot them, turn around and continue to outrun them? That lets you keep your armor and weapons concentrated instead of needing to spread them out over the whole ship, or worse put them all on the back meaning that the only way you can effectively engage the enemy prevents you from chasing them if they disengage.

But I have always wondered why the Loroi didnt do this when they can engage a Umiak fleet though an entire system and remain out of Umiak beam range.

That is their usual MO. In this case they are defending a fixed point which is not what they usually do.

Also armor numbers dont make sense.. at all.
Terran ship weapons are more powerful then Loroi/Umiak weapons in general.. yet our armor is utter crap.

And? Where is the threat that requires high armor? Prior to the Orgus contact the TCA was barely getting the funding to keep the ships it had because there wasn't any threat that warranted them. Adding hundreds of tons of armor would make the ships LESS effective at what they are actually used for and more expensive to build.

[captainsmirk]

At the ranges at which most battles are fought I imagine it is easy enough to turn to face your opponent very rapidly without the need for all-round firing turrets. Note also that although generally mounted on the front of the ship most Loroi weapons actually have very wide fire arcs, according to the concept art Blaster turrets are shown with full 360° traverse and 90° elevation whilst the Pulse cannon mounts have 180° traverse (although only 45° elevation).

Also Loroi ships low armour ratings is likely related to their superior acceleration compared to Umiak ships.

[CptWinters]

Also armor numbers dont make sense.. at all.
Terran ship weapons are more powerful then Loroi/Umiak weapons in general.. yet our armor is utter crap.

[...]

Real world Navy as an example... increasing armor on ships was found to be ineffective during ww2.
Most anti ship missiles today couldnt penetrate the armor on a ww2 cruiser.
Most ships today dont have any real armor... they instead use that extra weight for more weapons and speed.
Which is why anti-ship weapons could have smaller warheads.

First of all, Terran armor values have a lot to do with materials science and the ability to actually produce effective warship armor. I think we can all agree that Umiak and Loroi technology is significantly more advanced than Terran. It makes sense that their armor tech would be more sophisticated as well. Also, the more armor you add to a ship, the harder it will be to accelerate... and Terran ships are already slow to begin with. Humanity has produced the best it can under the constraints placed upon it: limited budget, limited utility, and limited technology.

Second. I don't know the RHA equivalent for WWII warship armor, but I'm assuming a 1:1 equivalence. An Iowa battleship had a 12 inch belt armor and 20 inches on the turret. A rocket-propelled grenade has a penetration of 60cm of RHA. That's just under two feet, 4 inches more than the heaviest armor on an Iowa-class battleship.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

Maybe that points out psychological issues with the Umiak/Loroi.
Putting guns that can shoot backwards and flying away from your enemy while you whack them hasnt even been considered.

Probably because the Loroi boosting at their max 30G acceleration would rapidly burn up fuel. Umiak ships might not accelerate as fast as the Loroi, but they have far more fuel efficiency/endurance. Running out of fuel in a protracted battle with this kind of strategy is a very real risk.

Alex watches the battle "hey why dont you put your guns so thy can shoot backwards, and use your superior speed to enlarge the engagement range and Umiak Missile time till Intercept so you have far longer to intercept enemy missiles. and then blow the hell out of the Umiak ships beyond there own engagement range."

Except the Loroi (especially the raider fleets) ARE doing that in their engagements. Even with their current turret configurations. I'm guessing that some of the turret mounts are more maneuverable than it looks, and the Loroi are careful about orienting the ship while skirmishing to hit them.

The biggest problem with this kind of strategy, as demonstrated here, is that this kind of tactic doesn't do you any good when you have a static position you have to defend. In this case it's the Bell. In other cases it might be a planet. The later containing irreplaceable Loroi war industry which the Umiak would happily throw an expendable fleet away to destroy.

But I have always wondered why the Loroi didnt do this when they can engage a Umiak fleet though an entire system and remain out of Umiak beam range.
IF shields are a problem, they can have firecontrol coodinate fire between ships so Beam Impacts on enemy ships to overpower shields.

Except the Loroi can't. They're still limited by the light speed lag that it takes their beams to travel across space to hit the enemy. And the entire idea of the Umiak Torpedo barrage is to give the Umiak long range engagement capability with the Loroi.

You gotta remember those torpedos. If the torpedos are coming in, you can't focus fire on individual Umiak ships. Even if you did have the opportunity, in the situations where the Loroi have the most chances to use skirmish tactics (interdiction fleets in the steppe), you're massively outnumbered. So there are ALLOT of ships to target.

Loroi ships flying directly away from Umiak missiles increases the time they take to reach to double, allowing double the shots to take them out.

You also burn up more fuel. and given the scale of Umiak industry, they'd be more than happy to use up torpedo reserves if it meant making Loroi ships go dry.

Also armor numbers dont make sense.. at all.
Terran ship weapons are more powerful then Loroi/Umiak weapons in general.. yet our armor is utter crap.

Terran ship weapons are NOT more powerful than Loroi/Umiak weapons in general. In fact, they're quite a bit worse.


Human DEW's are quite a bit worse in all respects compared to what the Loroi/Umiak use. The only exception to human weapons being more powerful are Mass Drivers. But their effective range due to their slow projectile speed (5-6 km/s) makes them of dubious use against mobile enemy space ships, even slow Terran one's with short effective ranges. Human ships probably still have armor since it can still protect against lasers, which is the most likely thing they'll be hit by while paroling human space.


And before anyone brings it up. No. The Loroi/Umiak aren't going to be any more impressed by human mass drivers than a platoon of modern soldiers would be impressed by a bunch of medieval warriors armed with zweihanders. Sure. A Zweihander will do horrible things to a human body, while completely ignoring the modern soldiers high tech armor. Cause the modern soldiers have rifles that can make pretty little holes in the guy with the zweihander from 450 yards out.

[Trantor]

Second. I don't know the RHA equivalent for WWII warship armor, but I'm assuming a 1:1 equivalence.

RHA is WWII-age.
Today with composites, plastics, ceramics and so on it is used as equivalent (e.g. 20cm MEXAS = 40cm RHA).

[CptWinters]

That's what I had understood from my readings. However, I'm no naval historian, and I wasn't sure if the navy had used other methods to increase the effective strength of the armor beyond the actual thickness of the steel.

[Trantor]

That's what I had understood from my readings. However, I'm no naval historian, and I wasn't sure if the navy had used other methods to increase the effective strength of the armor beyond the actual thickness of the steel.

Bismarck and Tirpitz had an armoured belt that was made of a combination of two sorts of steel ("Wotan hart" und "Wotan weich") increasing RHA-strength by ~15%. Then came the fuel-/ballasttanks, an then another 8 inch or so of inner citadel-armoring.
That was sufficient enough for Bismarck to withstand ~400 british shells (80 of them >14 inch) before her own sailors sunk her.

[CptWinters]

I had no idea. Hence my caution at making assertions on topics where I know very little.

[Trantor]

I had no idea. Hence my caution at making assertions on topics where I know very little.

My comments were not meant as criticism.
Also armor came a long way since WWII.

[Siber]

Regarding aft firing weapons targeting passing ships after the first pass: In the joust scenario, any kill in the initial pass is one that can't shoot back later. It's in both combatant's best interests to inflict as much damage as soon as possible. Any aft pointing weapons are ones that can't engage in the initial barrage, which means they're weapons that may never get to fire at all. Wasted weapons.

Regarding aft firing weapons in a prolonged tail chase: Keep in mind the type of engagements being fought, either assaults on fixed industry or raids to intercept those assaults. A either the fleet defending the planet or the fleet intercepting the raid must make an attack run on the other fleet. If a Umiak raider fleet came across a Loroi intercept fleet that just hung at range and out accelerated any chase attempt, the logical thing to do would be to fire torpedoes. If they're counting on the acceleration trick to survive, they'll have to run to pick them all off, after which they'll be out of position and have a lot of velocity to kill to get back at you, while you can proceed to your target. Or you can accelerate away and then back towards them and possibly force a closing pass, one which their ships will be relatively poorly equipped to handle.

Also consider even the rate of fire of the laser autocannon. 30 seconds between shots. Doubling the time it takes for torpedoes to catch up with you may not even get it to have a second shot off.

[dfacto]

This is exactly why your weapons should be placed and constructed to have maximum field of fire. Having a weapon do maximum damage only in one direction in a three dimensional battlefield is just asking to be beaten. Why do you think broadsides were dropped with the advent of the turret?