Decoys, Jamming and Countermeasures

[Jack]

You ask a lot of repetitive questions in the thread. I will answer only to the original.

If the Umiak wait to fire torpedoes until they enter medium range, then the Loroi will be able to safely fire on their ships the entire time.

medium-range torpedoes fly twice as far as the best long-range guns shoot Loroi.

The "Rockeye" is listed as carrying kinetic-kill warheads, while the "Scatter Pack" is listed as carrying smaller torpedoes. Either could presumably be used in any of a number of roles, but my assessment is that the "Rockeye" is better reserved for slower targets.
Also, fighters are used as a two-stage AMM to intercept torpedoes and gunships.

"Gimlet" has accelerated several times higher than that of any fighter and torpedo the need for interception. Acceleration MicroSR too little to capture the fighters and torpedoes.

And the Umiak won't need a special weapon to use against planets, since planets can't maneuver in Outsider.

Lori such weapons, AMM-D is. Why special weapons against ground targets do not have to be umiak?

Torpedo guidance will be data transceivers, so low-mass. The control system will be a computer program, so that comes for free. System diagnostics will be data transceivers + software, so free. Maintenance will be tools, so that will cost a little, but it'll likely be a minor cost compared to the actual torpedoes, so effectively free if you're bothering with torpedoes in the first case. The launcher is the one cost of interest since it can service a widely varying number of torpedoes. However, most of the torpedo's acceleration is always going to come from the torpedo, so the launcher will never need to be too expensive: you're looking at less than 1 torpedo mass per launcher, because the only thing that the launcher needs to do is hold the torpedo, and throw it far enough from the ship for the torpedo's drive to safely start. The launcher is going to be much lighter than an actual gun, since those are fairly large.

The transmitter is capable of transferring data to 20 light seconds after the engine exhaust annihilation under enemy electronic warfare - a heavy, large, complex and expensive.
A computer program requires a computer.
Diagnostic system requires various sensors of the torpedo, launcher and the rest of the complex channels of communication from them, the equipment receives data from the sensors, and a computer program with which they are treated.
Today, a single physical computer is not required - but the need for a system of processing power on board the ship is not free.
The complex is on the board of a headache, all of which go as they can. But the concept of service solely on their own, which in relation to the author insists umiak makes integrating the carapace hemorrhoids.
About launcher I wrote above in detail. Aircraft catapult launcher type now weighs about the same as launching missiles.

The "catapult launchers" you're referring to throw an object, correct? Google translate suggests the Russian(/) word люк (trapdoor) or phrase торпеда капельницы (torpedo dropper, which is an odd mental image to me) for the type of launcher that just "drops" the torpedo. They might include a large spring, but calling them "launchers" isn't particularly informative.

Thank you for the visual demonstration of what gibberish gives Google translator.
Devices of this type are called Russian term "starting device". And practically used except papers.
Too dangerous to use these devices in action.

The physical range of the torpedo isn't important: it can keep travelling almost infinitely since it's in space. The important thing is how long it takes to cover Loroi weapons range (it's speed) and how much it can maneuver in that time (which depends on it's remaining fuel). A torpedo with a longer range but the same acceleration can cross Loroi weapons range much faster, which makes it more dangerous: the Loroi need to destroy these sooner than the others.
Also, torpedoes will maneuver more as they get closer to the Loroi, but when they're 1 light-second away they'll barely need to maneuver at all, since just a little thrust in a semi-random direction will make it almost impossible for the Loroi to hit them at that distance.

To set the speed of the torpedo need distance. Or distance is such that by the time of arrival of the ship in the zone of fire weapons Loroi, torpedoes, or will be destroyed for a long time, or will be destroyed for a long time ships Loroi. Described in the comic mechanics "distraction to torpedo" will not operate.
At a distance of fire weapons Loroi torpedo fuel tank is almost irrelevant, even short-range torpedoes able to cover the distance is continuously accelerating. It is important only to develop a torpedo acceleration.
So for distraction Loroi when approaching naval torpedoes harder medium-range are not needed.
What weapon in the comic is able to shoot the torpedoes at a distance of light-seconds?

Not without system specs, but I can give the formula:
Jamming strength required = Distance to target * Distance to target * Jamming strength required when distance to target is 1.

In Russian it is called "stupid infinity": the formula for Jamming strength required when distance to target is 1 please.

[Mr Bojangles]

Hi, Jack. Now, I imagine you have already found the Insider, as you've been quoting ship and torpedo specs from it, but there's the link anyway. Tons of information on the Loroi and Umiak. From how they think, to how they evolved, to how they fight and a brief history of the war. And, if you get a chance, read through the Q-and-A threads; all of us have been discussing this stuff for years with Arioch. Many, many details are available, man. We're not really telling you anything new.

Ignore the enemy decoy, mimics a ship, then do not shoot at enemy ships.

But, you initially said that the decoys don't fly towards the target. If they're not flying towards the target, then the target can ignore them and focus on the things that are flying towards them. I would also assume that the target ships would notice enemy fleet elements moving in unusual patterns (away from them entirely, off-angle to the enemy's main vector), so the decoys would be monitored so long as they were in range.

Strike groups are in enemy territory. The more time they spend on maneuvering to position superiority is achieved, the higher the risk reinforcements umiak.
The further strike group departs from the star, the more difficult it will be to perform interstellar jump.

Where the action of the first chapter of the comic took place is The Steppes, which is a contested dead zone between Loroi and Umiak space. It used to be part of Loroi space until the Umiak took most of it. In the ensuing fighting, the Loroi burned many of the systems in the region as they failed to completely drive the Umiak out, and so decided to deny them resources and territory. The concern about reinforcements exists for both sides as the region is contested; both combatants have the same ability to maneuver through it.

Spread torpedoes at a miss impossible. Torpedo gaining the highest possible speed for the passage of the zone of fire defense purpose, only a limited rate margin to parry target maneuver.
At speeds that develop long-range torpedoes, even the torch annihilation rocket motor becomes the object of a small and leakage.
Yes, the torpedo can be turned into a plasma torch the motor. Here are just at the speed of the order of 1% of the speed of light for the purpose there is no difference, it would hit 80 tons torpedo or 80 tons plasma.
The radius of destruction explosion in space is small. And it is quite comparable to the size of the ships in the comics. So a direct hit to the torpedo in the world of comics rational.

A miss is completely possible. Space is big and warships quite maneuverable. The warships are able to effectively track everything in the combat zone and will have ample time to begin random walks (randomly and repeatedly change vectors) and to engage with point defense. Please refer to pages 76 through 83 to see an actual example. The Loroi don't emerge unscathed, but the point I've been trying to make is clearly shown.

While point defense wouldn't negate the momentum of the plasma resulting from a vaporized torpedo, it would bring into play defensive screens. Such screens are useful against charge-carrying beams, that is, both the Loroi's and Umiak's primary plasma-based weaponry. The ships of both sides would weather a hit from a vaporized torpedo far better than if it were still a solid mass.

Acceleration ship 20-25 g, the length of the ship 200-400 meters. After 1-2 seconds after the reset torpedo in the ship's engine plume.
And here the difference between the torpedo and the equivalent weight of the plasma becomes important.
So the torpedoes about 1 second to the fact that the move away from the ship and include its own engine. Engine power torpedo FMR - 1800 tonnes of thrust. For a safe distance behind it include?
So when you start is not "reset", but powerful impetus from which a torpedo weighing tens of tons will acquire the speed of about 100 m/s.

Please see page 75 to see an example of an Umiak torpedo launch. At no point are the torpedoes in the drive plumes of the launching ships. And, actually, when a torpedo is launched it will have the same velocity as the ship that launched it at the instant of its launch, so it could have an initial velocity much greater than 100 m/s. Assuming the ship is under acceleration at the time, the torpedo will fall behind towards the drive plume, yes, but the launchers are designed to kick the torpedo away from the ship and Newton's laws will keep it well away from the plume.

If you want, I can do the calculation, how many times will need more fuel to refuel fighter than torpedoes. Estimated to be 50 to 1.
The main problem of fighters - a small range of view. Today, to solve mankind makes special AEW. But in comics such vehicles do not.
Therefore, the application range of the fighters will be limited detection range of sensors mothership or spotter-ship.

Honestly, neither side makes heavy use of fighters. They can be swatted out of space as easily as a torpedo, though they do provide expanded point defense coverage (for the Loroi) or decoys/extra tactical flexibility (for the Umiak). For both sides, the main means of force projection are warships.

We have no reason to believe that either combatant doesn't have an equivalent of AEW. You probably won't see them in space, though, because unlike on a planet, there's no horizon in space. Unlike a seafaring vessel or land-based radar, a spaceship has nothing to "see over" which is what an AEW is meant to do. Neither fighters nor gunboats wander far from their fleets as they're too vulnerable, so they get the benefits of being in their forces' shared sensor bubble.

In the battle umiak lost "a dozen" of ships. Of these two ships this strike cruiser and command cruiser. Max lost no more than 8 gunboats.
The range, which launched torpedoes, too few, and they were unable to gain maximum speed. It seems, for this situation, there is an English saying "The hunt for the turkey."
Reasons for 6 heavy umiak ships and about 100 medium and light ships that were not destroyed, not destroyed FAG51 in comics are not specified.
Even gunboat came out firing in the distance, capable of destroying any ship from Loroi FAG51 with sufficient time. And if such a dozen gunboats - time is reduced to one or two volleys.

By "The hunt for the turkey" do you mean "turkey shoot?" That's an English idiom generally meaning that a person has an overwhelming advantage over another in a situation. If that's the case, then what happened in the comic was the exact opposite of a turkey shoot. The Umiak have a numerical advantage, but the Loroi have a maneuver advantage and a range advantage.

No Umiak ship can go up against a Loroi ship and "come out firing in the distance" as Loroi weaponry has a much longer effective range. As icekatze pointed out, and the comic pages I linked show, the Loroi play their advantages extremely well. Right there on the pages of the comic, you can see that a small strike group was able to handle hundreds of torpedoes and a dozen-plus ships with only two losses on their side. Now, if the Umiak had thrown everything they had in the system at the Loroi, then you'd have a turkey shoot.

And I know you must mean SG-51, not FAG51. I'm not even sure where you got the second one from.

[Jack]

Hi, Mr. Bojangles!
I hope I would still be able to say something new.

Noticed a difference in thinking.
For me, challenge, the function is more important than the result. Decoy flying near the ship, not the target. The fact that the ship is flying to the enemy, and decoy with it - for me it does not matter.
On the other hand, you see, the enemy will fire on our ships, regardless of where they travel.

No Umiak ship can go up against a Loroi ship and "come out firing in the distance" as Loroi weaponry has a much longer effective range.

Torpedoes for me is the same shipboard weapons like guns. Since the torpedo umiak most ranged weapons in the comic - umiak ships may fire at ships Loroi out of their range of fire.

And I know you must mean SG-51, not FAG51.

The Russian strike group / airplane / boat / ship used for the main attack, the attack of the main forces of the enemy. Therefore SG51 translation into Russian was the cause of the dispute, since the purpose of the group, as described, is quite another. In the course of this dispute surfaced term FAG, which is well suited for the described tactics.

Now the answer to the point.

[Jack]

...do you mean "turkey shoot?" If that's the case, then what happened in the comic was the exact opposite of a turkey shoot. The Umiak have a numerical advantage, but the Loroi have a maneuver advantage and a range advantage.

Hence, the idiom does not fit. As will be shown below, torpedoes umiak launched as it was shown to be able to gain maximum speed at the time of passing the fire zone defense, and therefore are "easy targets".
In assessing the situation in the battle of the premises provided by Arioch: the battle - half an hour, affected "Tolot" -s ships were destroyed by the attack in pursuit.

A miss is completely possible. Space is big and warships quite maneuverable. The warships are able to effectively track everything in the combat zone and will have ample time to begin random walks (randomly and repeatedly change vectors) and to engage with point defense.

When used properly serviceable torpedoes and with no interference miss excluded.
Launch range determined by the supply of fuel and torpedoes maneuverability goal. Maneuverability torpedoes, as a rule, twice as much agility objectives - and therefore will not be able to leave the goal.
About sensory scanning, we'll talk more later.
Special evasive maneuvers, use the known disadvantages of a particular type of torpedo possible. But you need to know the disadvantages of this type of torpedo.

While point defense wouldn't negate the momentum of the plasma resulting from a vaporized torpedo, it would bring into play defensive screens. Such screens are useful against charge-carrying beams, that is, both the Loroi's and Umiak's primary plasma-based weaponry. The ships of both sides would weather a hit from a vaporized torpedo far better than if it were still a solid mass.

We had a power of tens of megatons of TNT. For ships comics in most cases will suffice First percent of this capacity for destruction. So save time on the exact calculation of the damage brought by ship, it was 100500% or 1005% just do not think it necessary.
In general, the torpedo hit the ship the same destruction.

Please see page 75 to see an example of an Umiak torpedo launch. At no point are the torpedoes in the drive plumes of the launching ships.

1 frame - command cruiser and allegedly strike cruiser launching a torpedo, presumably - HXLR. These torpedo can see on page 79-80, the second frame. During the battle, these torpedoes can score maximum one-third of its maximum speed.
2 frame - launch HLR torpedoes, presumably on board the light cruiser. During the battle, these torpedoes could develop a maximum half of its maximum speed.
3 frame - missile cruiser launches XHSR torpedoes.
4 frame - AMM Gimlet (?!! The distance between the beginning of the battle fleets of about 150 Mm).
5 frame - blisters "Rockeye", presumably to strike cruiser, FMR torpedo, presumably missile destroyer. And it is not certain, too small, the third type of torpedo.
Launching torpedoes are not at optimum distances much easier to intercept them.

We have no reason to believe that either combatant doesn't have an equivalent of AEW. You probably won't see them in space, though, because unlike on a planet, there's no horizon in space. Unlike a seafaring vessel or land-based radar, a spaceship has nothing to "see over" which is what an AEW is meant to do. Neither fighters nor gunboats wander far from their fleets as they're too vulnerable, so they get the benefits of being in their forces' shared sensor bubble.

Now on to the sensors.
AEW:

There is something similar for the fighter in the world of comics?
On the detection range of the sensors. Radar kind AN/SPY-1 examines the hemisphere at a range of 1000 km, that is 1 Mm, in 2 minutes, and spends this 100 MW power requirements. By increasing the number of viewing range growing energy needs in a square, and in fact even more - due to the absorption of radio waves substance, which is even in space. If we want to examine the scope of a radius of about 20 light-seconds to 6000 Mm, we need about terawatts of electric power. It is close to the total electrical capacity of all power of humanity today. And approximately equal to the power sub-light engines of heavy vehicles in the world of comics.
That is, the ship carrying the sensor with a detection range in the world of comics available. But the reactor to power the sensor in the ship should be the size of the engine battleship. Both the sensor must have an impressive size.
I suppose that the Type-Z Specialty Destroyer and it looks like - a huge flying-seeing eye.
But for every ship, even every superheavy ship to put such a sensor is unlikely to succeed.
And the range survey normal ships, even in a clean space, probably less than 10 light-seconds.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Space is not the air. Spacecraft are not aircraft. Space is not a sea. Spacecraft are not seacraft.

Spacecraft can accelerate in any direction, regardless of what their velocity is, and when they change their thrust vector, they can only increase their velocity by their base acceleration, with no regard for their initial velocity outside of relativistic effects.

A fleet of Loroi raiders can charge an Umiak fleet at a conservative speed of 3 megameters per second. Since they have better acceleration, they can choose the distance they pass the Umiak fleet. At 240 megameters, they can pass the Umiak fleet and fire their pulse cannons. They pass by the Umiak fleet in 160 seconds. It takes an Umiak torpedo 900 seconds to cross the distance. The torpedoes never reach their target.

A basic camera and a 2 meter lens, is capable of detecting the space shuttle's main engine at 20,000,000 megameters. Space is basically the hardest possible environment to hide in.

Torpedoes may have infinite range, but they have abysmally poor speed compared to beam weapons. The Umiak have to work very hard to get the Loroi into a disadvantageous position.

[Jack]

hi hi
Space is not the air. Spacecraft are not aircraft. Space is not a sea. Spacecraft are not seacraft.

Physics - one for all.

A fleet of Loroi raiders can charge an Umiak fleet at a conservative speed of 3 megameters per second. Since they have better acceleration, they can choose the distance they pass the Umiak fleet. At 240 megameters, they can pass the Umiak fleet and fire their pulse cannons. They pass by the Umiak fleet in 160 seconds. It takes an Umiak torpedo 900 seconds to cross the distance. The torpedoes never reach their target.

Umiak waiting fleet approach Loroi ~2,000 Mm and launch torpedoes to meet them. Evade torpedoes ships Loroi in these conditions can not physically.

A basic camera and a 2 meter lens, is capable of detecting the space shuttle's main engine at 20,000,000 megameters. Space is basically the hardest possible environment to hide in.

The rate of this camera review - 0.0167 square degrees per minute. Area scope - 41252.96 square degrees. Time viewing spheres - 2470237 seconds, or 41170 minutes, or 686 hours, or 29 days.
Because the camera collects the signal to detect fast-moving objects, it is not capable.

Torpedoes may have infinite range, but they have abysmally poor speed compared to beam weapons. The Umiak have to work very hard to get the Loroi into a disadvantageous position.

You can say anything. You show the calculation.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Physics - one for all.

And if there was air and water in space at terrestrial densities, that could be relevant.

Umiak waiting fleet approach Loroi ~2,000 Mm and launch torpedoes to meet them.

If the Umiak launch torpedoes at 2,000 megameters, the Loroi still pass by the Umiak position in 671 seconds, while the Umiak torpedoes are still 229 seconds away from their targets.

The rate of this camera review - 0.0167 square degrees per minute.

That is the rate of view when it is tracking with the rotation of the Earth for extremely faint objects that are light years away. As you double the number of photons reaching the collector, you half the amount of time it needs to spend observing it's field of view. For something of the space shuttle's brightness, 1 camera could scan the whole sky in less than an hour. And a camera that is focusing on an enemy fleet doesn't need to scan the whole sky. (Not to mention the fact that the Loroi and the Umiak have much higher tech levels than we do today.)

You can say anything. You show the calculation.

I'm seeing a lot of "saying anything" in this discussion.

[Jack]

hi hi
And if there was air and water in space at terrestrial densities, that could be relevant.

Specific examples, please.

If the Umiak launch torpedoes at 2,000 megameters, the Loroi still pass by the Umiak position in 671 seconds, while the Umiak torpedoes are still 229 seconds away from their targets.

I am now lazily solve the problem of optimal time to start torpedoes. I have enough to show that Loroi can not escape umiak torpedoes.
If you wish, we can tomorrow to draw and count based on Loroi ships and Umiak torpedoes.

That is the rate of view when it is tracking with the rotation of the Earth for extremely faint objects that are light years away. As you double the number of photons reaching the collector, you half the amount of time it needs to spend observing it's field of view. For something of the space shuttle's brightness, 1 camera could scan the whole sky in less than an hour. And a camera that is focusing on an enemy fleet doesn't need to scan the whole sky. (Not to mention the fact that the Loroi and the Umiak have much higher tech levels than we do today.)

The normal response - tomorrow. So far I can only say that this system is working with the accumulation of the signal, so the detection of objects with significant radial velocity is not suitable in principle.
Tomorrow, you need to count on a predetermined range will detect the source of the system while reducing the time of the review in 1000, as you wish.

[Mr Bojangles]

...stuff...

I'm not even going to bother replying to your specific points, since it just doesn't seem to go anywhere. You seem to be stuck on torpedoes being the end-all weapon of Outsider. You have been presented with many arguments, via this thread, the Insider and the comic itself as to why that is not the case. If anyone is being repetitive, it's you.

No one here has argued with you that torpedoes aren't a viable weapon. Nor has anyone said that they can't do immense damage once they hit a target. What has been said is that compared to beam weaponry they aren't very effective weapons. The Umiak have to use them in massive numbers just to score a few kills against the Loroi, due to Loroi point defense and maneuverability. A torpedo's efficiency as a weapon is low. This was blatantly shown in the comic in the pages I told you to read; this is a fact of this story.

Your arguments all seem to ignore what has been built into the Outsider universe. I've told you before, and I'll say it one last time, none of the people that have responded to you have told you anything new. It's all based on what Arioch has given us and physics. Here's one last link for you: Atomic Rockets. You want deep details about how things actually work in space? Read that site. It gets referenced frequently around here.

And, with that, I'm done. I hope you find the answers you're looking for, Jack, and I hope you continue to the enjoy the comic. See you around, man.

[Absalom]

Mr Bojangles is right, you're either ignoring things or failing to understand them in the first place.

A quick note, though: Gimlets have a very short range (measured in seconds instead of minutes) and AMM-D missiles are an Anti-Missile Missile (hence AMM).

The rest of my reply I've already deleted. It was probably too long anyways.

[Arioch]

A quick note, though: Gimlets have a very short range (measured in seconds instead of minutes) and AMM-D missiles are an Anti-Missile Missile (hence AMM).

AMM's and similar missiles have very short engine burns, but can be used offensively at substantial range against targets that can't maneuver, such as ground targets, some space platforms, or a vessel that has been disabled. The AMM-D is a single-stage version of the missile that's designed specifically for this type of use. It's what they use instead of mass drivers.

[Jack]

...

You can not on one occasion to evaluate the effectiveness.
Thanks for the links, I'll see you later!