Bellarmine's route to Naam (re: page 118)

[Victor_D]

I am just wondering: the route shown on the map seems to cross the former Tithric territory (devastated by Loroi in reprisal for the Tithric inability to stop Umiak crossings, the so-called "Tithric genocide"). How carefully did the humans scan the systems they were passing through on their way to Naam? Or did they accidentally miss all the systems with bombarded planets, Tomb worlds with billions of dead? I assume seeing the results of Loroi anti-neutrality policy with their own eyes would give Alex a slightly different perspective of his rescuers/hosts...

[Arioch]

Unlike the previous Steppes map that is looking directly down at the galactic plane, this map is three-dimensional, with the view looking down at about a 45 degree angle to the galactic plane. The Bellarmine's route goes substantially "up" toward galactic North, while the former Tithric systems are at the lower right of the map, obscured by Alex's arm. They're not near to each other.

I tried using elevation lines connected to a grid that represented the galactic plane, but it made the map totally unreadable.

[Victor_D]

Ah, that makes sense. But it would have been a nice bit of drama

[CF2]

I assume seeing the results of Loroi anti-neutrality policy with their own eyes would give Alex a slightly different perspective of his rescuers/hosts...

He might be more cautious about clarifying that humanity intends to declare for the Loroi once contact is established, so as not to provoke his hosts/captors with inquiries about neutrality. Other than that, I think having his entire crew slaughtered by the Umiak, and a bias toward humanoids, would leave his perspective fairly similar to what he has now.

Also, human territory isn't positioned in a way that would make it a valuable barrier to fleet routes, so there's not much risk of a repeat of the circumstances that led to the Tithric genocide.

[Victor_D]

I assume seeing the results of Loroi anti-neutrality policy with their own eyes would give Alex a slightly different perspective of his rescuers/hosts...

He might be more cautious about clarifying that humanity intends to declare for the Loroi once contact is established, so as not to provoke his hosts/captors with inquiries about neutrality. Other than that, I think having his entire crew slaughtered by the Umiak, and a bias toward humanoids, would leave his perspective fairly similar to what he has now.

Also, human territory isn't positioned in a way that would make it a valuable barrier to fleet routes, so there's not much risk of a repeat of the circumstances that led to the Tithric genocide.

You have to look at this from Alex's perspective: he doesn't have much intel on the history of the war and the Loroi in general. Imagine you're a blue-skinned alien who is rescued by the crew of German U-boot after his ship was shot down in the Atlantic by unknown attackers, presumably the Americans (that's what the Germans told you) in 1944. You're inclined to like them for rescuing you and being fairly nice to you. Sure, these guys are a bit militaristic, but they're at war with these Americans who allegedly routinely firebomb entire cities full of people as a means of prosecuting war.

Now imagine how you'd deal with your rescuers in the same situation if you had seen the death camps before...

[Imbrooge]

You have to look at this from Alex's perspective: he doesn't have much intel on the history of the war and the Loroi in general. Imagine you're a blue-skinned alien who is rescued by the crew of German U-boot after his ship was shot down in the Atlantic by unknown attackers, presumably the Americans (that's what the Germans told you) in 1944. You're inclined to like them for rescuing you and being fairly nice to you. Sure, these guys are a bit militaristic, but they're at war with these Americans who allegedly routinely firebomb entire cities full of people as a means of prosecuting war.

Now imagine how you'd deal with your rescuers in the same situation if you had seen the death camps before...

You mean the labor camps, so far all the "evidence" that they were death camps and not labor camps is an embelishment the majority of deaths were primarily sickness and disease. They more or less resemble prisons because that's what they are and my very first question in my mind is why would I be at the labor camp in the first place. Besides if you actually want to use labor camps instead of the Umiak being the Americans the Umiak would be the Soviets and you already have surviors of the gulags and all the tales they'll tell or show you dwarfs all but the most famous tales of german labor camps and unfortunently it's not an embelishment of any kind.

EDIT Disclaimer: I do not in any way condone atrocities, however all the gas chambers I've seen turned out to be showers and the Nazis themselves didn't record even close to 6 million Jews to have existed in their territory.

[Victor_D]

EDIT Disclaimer: I do not in any way condone atrocities, however all the gas chambers I've seen turned out to be showers and the Nazis themselves didn't record even close to 6 million Jews to have existed in their territory.

Not sure if this is supposed to be a joke or not, but it is in very poor taste and I am not going to condone it by replying.

[Arioch]

The majority of German concentration camps were indeed forced labor camps, but some of the larger camps (Auschwitz) had sub-compounds used for executions, and some specialized "death camps" (Treblinka, Sobibor) were used exclusively for executions, in which prisoners were executed within hours of arrival, and which had no facilities for housing any more than a small staff.

If you choose to disbelieve the historical record on this point, that's your prerogative, but that requires believing that some kind of massive international conspiracy has falsified history. This forum is not an appropriate venue for arguments about conspiracy theory, and so I'd appreciate it if we could leave this subject alone.

[boldilocks]

Technically it would require no massive international conspiracy, given that all execution camps were located in poland it's enough to theorize that those accounts were part of the standard soviet propaganda and misinformation campaign similar to the other campaigns they were known to have run.

For example; incidents like the Katyn massacre that was in effect soviet allies committing mass murders on Stalin's orders and the soviets blaming them on the germans.

With history already sufficiently falsified such a relatively minor conspiracy would in effect be self-sustaining since why on earth would you look into the matter further (if you doubt it you're a monster) especially since if you did and you found it hadn't happened you'd become a social pariah or jailed (if you happen to live in europe), essentially forcing all subsequent accounts and evidence to either be in favor of the holocaust having happened or being ignored for the self-preservation of the historian in question.

The problem with these sorts of conspiracies is that we have no idea whether one is in effect and only revisionist work can reveal it, and unfortunately revisionist work is often either done for or legally prohibited for politically motivated reasons.

[deadlypie]

The Holocaust happened, and the nazis are bad people. I'm pretty sure these two things are both true. Also, I don't know what this has to do with blue elves in space.

[Eluvatar]

The Holocaust happened, and the nazis are bad people. I'm pretty sure these two things are both true. Also, I don't know what this has to do with blue elves in space.

It's the genocide olympics. Gotta score the points properly, see how the blue elves line up on the leaderboard.

[raistlin34]

The Holocaust happened, and the nazis are bad people. I'm pretty sure these two things are both true. Also, I don't know what this has to do with blue elves in space.

Godwin's law, I guess.

[GhostlyYorick]

New here. Kind of shocked to see the discussion above Hope this isn't standard on these forums

[Mr Bojangles]

New here. Kind of shocked to see the discussion above Hope this isn't standard on these forums

Talk about genocide? Nothing new, as the major combatants of the story have engaged in it. We often engage in the debate of morality v. total war v. threat of extinction. We usually avoid the Holocaust denial; that's new (and I've been here a lot longer than my join date suggests).

Please don't take this as representative of the fora and its users. Imbrooge's comment is well outside the norm.

[Imbrooge]

New here. Kind of shocked to see the discussion above Hope this isn't standard on these forums

You have my assurance that I will refrain from broaching that specific subject any further.