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[Ktrain]

If humanity does join the Loroi there are few possible outcomes;

Humanity becomes a peripheral/independent ally, but I doubt that will occur given our military weakness.

Humanity becomes a protectorate/subjugated population and is exploited by the Loroi (this would most likely be preferable to the Loroi since it would strengthen both their representation in the Union and their economy).

Humanity is admitted into the Union as a full member; this would cause the greatest amount of political upheaval since humanity has a significant population base which would dilute the power of all members, especially the Loroi (the effects depend on how the make up the Union is now, do the Loroi have a majority or a supermajority?)

On another tangent, I would not discount any technological contributions that mankind could make.
Technology is in part an expression of culture and environment; mankind could have innovations that were never developed elsewhere due to the unique biosphere/needs of out planet. The fact that we innovate and progress so quickly means that there must be something that we have/do that other cultures/societies do not employ.

The Loroi and Umaik are three generations ahead in military technology, but what about civilian technology. Just from observing the battles it appears that the Umiak are more advanced than the Loroi in civilian technology (but then again the Umiak may just have a larger less efficient workforce that can produce a greater total output than the Loroi). The heavy reliance of the Loroi on their allies for both logistic and productive support suggests that the Loroi might not utilize the most advanced production technology. The Delrias produce their guns and the Pipolsid produce their engines/drives. Mankind has been at peace for more than a century and has devoted relatively little to the development of military technologies; it may be that our civilian technology/sector is much more advanced than our military sector. The conclusion that humanity humanity has nothing to contribute technologically/economically might very well be a premature judgement.

I really want an Insider article detailing the belligerents' economies.

Also, I second Trashman's assertion.

[Nathan_]

I think a comparison question to humanity's contribution would be, "How easily could Victorian level industry help the current US Navy?"

This is the perfect example, America today lacks a merchant fleet(because of very poor industrial/trade decisions on our part) and we use ships produced by the rest of the world to move what we need moved. A british shipyard capable of building a WW1 dreadnaught that would be hopelessly outclassed by everything in our arsenal today could still build other usable vessels.

[fredgiblet]

The Loroi and Umaik are three generations ahead in military technology, but what about civilian technology. Just from observing the battles it appears that the Umiak are more advanced than the Loroi in civilian technology (but then again the Umiak may just have a larger less efficient workforce that can produce a greater total output than the Loroi).

The Umiak Empire is larger than the Loroi Empire and the Umiak are willing to destroy planetary ecosystems to produce more widgets. The Loroi actually want to live on the planets so they aren't as eager to destroy everything in their quest for more ships. Though it's been strongly hinted that the Umiak may have some special sauce beyond that that's pushing their production even higher.

The heavy reliance of the Loroi on their allies for both logistic and productive support suggests that the Loroi might not utilize the most advanced production technology. The Delrias produce their guns and the Pipolsid produce their engines/drives.

I don't think that's production I think that's development. It's been made somewhat clear that the Loroi are not R&D powerhouses, in fact that's what's likely to be our long-term contribution to the Empire.

[Grayhome]

Though it's been strongly hinted that the Umiak may have some special sauce beyond that that's pushing their production even higher.

Royal jelly perhaps?

[Voitan]

I think it's been implied by Arioch's posts that the Loroi don't have something like the internet, and/or have seen a free information network like it, possibly described from Arioch as to be interested/impressed.

[TrashMan]

I think a comparison question to humanity's contribution would be, "How easily could Victorian level industry help the current US Navy?"

I don't think that difference is accuarate. the development of technology flows differetnly in different eras. Differences can be bigger or smaller.

For comparison, victorian era military didn't have large industry, their best ships shouldn't even scratch a WW2 battleship at point blank range (you could park a dozen ofhhtem arond a BB and let them fire till their cannons melted), they couldnt' fly, etc, tec...

But that´s not the point. Victorian society was only one step from industrial society.
I´d go with anticarrot: Show them how to do welding instead of riveting, and they catch up fast enough to provide good assistance on low-level-tech.

It is a point. The effectivness gap of technolgy seems to drop with time. There is a certain point in development, certain milestones that create far larger/smaller differeces when compared to others. The scientific method and nukes are those things.

Victorians militaries couldn't do squat to a tank or a ww2 battelship....let alone a plane.

Human weapons in Outsider CAN hurt the Loroi/Umiak very much so. Yers, our delivery method sucks, but that is a distinctive difference. Simply put the 2-3 geenration difference bwetween human and Loroi is NOT of the same type/scale as the 2-3 generation difference between victorian and WW2 societies.

[TrashMan]

I predist that humans will smite the Loroi and hte Umiak. In a few generation the glorious humanity will leave them eating our dust.

Loroi will be our plesure slaves and umiak our workforce.
LONG LIVE THE HUMAN EMPIRE!!!!!!

[Trantor]

I predist that humans will smite the Loroi and hte Umiak. In a few generation the glorious humanity will leave them eating our dust.

Loroi will be our plesure slaves and umiak our workforce.
LONG LIVE THE HUMAN EMPIRE!!!!!!

Only if we steamroller the Historians, too.

[Grayhome]

From what we have learned of the Historians I believe they would willingly join us over the Loroi in a loose alliance if it came down to a choice between the two. One major advantage we have to offer them as allies over the Loroi is direct face to face interaction, as we would not eat their thoughts. That and we would make prime partners in making progress toward their goal of attaining ultimate knowledge, which I remember reading somewhere along the way as one of the main Historian motivations. The Loroi are parasites, slavers and exploiters with a long history of mindless violence and galactic domination on their minds, traits like those would tend to make a race of science buffs nervous.

[captainsmirk]

as has been said a million times before, amateurs talk about strategy, professionals talk about logistics, the loroi have logistical problems(as proven by lack of ordnance shown in the comic), ANY help there should be appreciated.

Where is the evidence of logistical problems in SG-51's current lack of ordnance? They have so little because they have already expended it in combat not because they don't have enough... Presumably it is not standard practice to resupply a fast attack group out in the steppes because it would normally be withdrawing back to an area where it can much more easily resupplied.

Also that expendable ordnance is very expensive to produce, hence why only the Umiak with their massive industrial strength can deploy them in large numbers. The problem is not getting the weapons to the front lines but producing enough of them in the first place. Humanity wouldn't be able increase the supply of ordnance to the Loroi by any significant amount for the same reasons that the Loroi can't do it themselves.

Not saying that humans couldn't make significant contributions to the Loroi's logistics systems but it wouldn't solve this particular "problem".

[Grayhome]

If only humanity could craft a torpedo that was not reliant upon a solid ammunition base but something more exotic... such as an anti-matter energy-based torpedo system? Outsider is a work of science fiction after all, and I've always enjoyed the way those photon torpedoes twinkled before they lit up a Romulan Warbird. In addition an energy torpedo that could be formed and launched as long as the vessel had the necessary energy requirements would be far less expensive to maintain and supply than the massive missile barrages the Loroi and Umiak have been using.

I think one big surprise the Umiak and Loroi will discover about Terrans is that they Fight smarter, not harder.

[icekatze]

hi hi

Do you mean, Homingu Lasaru!

[anticarrot]

Minor issue: A victorian warship (or indeed a nepoleanic ship, if it could get its guns high enough) could easily 'soft kill' a WWII battleship by taking out the bridge and fire control stations, which would blind and thus silence the main guns. I would speculate that HMS Dreadnought (a very late era victorian ship) could do more comprehensive damage.

One possible area humans might make a contribution would be torpedo construction/design. No, wait. There is method in my madness. In rocket engines, thrust is usually inversely proportional to specific impulse. Fusion torches get around this problem by using phenominally high chamber pressure. But you can stick other fuel in there and run it as (for example) a nuclear salt water rocket. Getting an order of magnitude more thust would be a very conservative outcome. Even if the newer torpedo weighed twice as much (more fuel, secondary reactor) the acceleration would be five times higher.

The question is this: The Loroi got to where they were partly through examining soia artifacts. So how much intermediate did they skip over completely or only vaguely examine? Because we knew about nuclear rockets in theory and practice for almost 70 years before someone thought of the NSWR. This really is something they might not know about.

This post brought to you by Nuclear Physics!, Rocket Science!, and five dead cat girls.

[Trantor]

Minor issue: A victorian warship (or indeed a nepoleanic ship, if it could get its guns high enough) could easily 'soft kill' a WWII battleship by taking out the bridge and fire control stations, which would blind and thus silence the main guns. I would speculate that HMS Dreadnought (a very late era victorian ship) could do more comprehensive damage.

Nah. WW2-Ships had way more range.
An inferior ship killing a superior one was a rare occurrence, and was always preceded by a mistake of the superior ship´s commander. See HSK Kormoran vs HMAS Sydney.

This post brought to you by Nuclear Physics!, Rocket Science!, and five dead cat girls.

More like "rocket surgery". SCNR.

Let´s stay with logistics, production, mining and low-level-tech assistance for the beginning.

[Cdr Straker]

Minor issue: A victorian warship (or indeed a nepoleanic ship, if it could get its guns high enough) could easily 'soft kill' a WWII battleship by taking out the bridge and fire control stations, which would blind and thus silence the main guns. I would speculate that HMS Dreadnought (a very late era victorian ship) could do more comprehensive damage.

Nah. WW2-Ships had way more range.
An inferior ship killing a superior one was a rare occurrence, and was always preceded by a mistake of the superior ship´s commander.

Oh, so we're back to Admiral Lütjens, again?

[elizibar]

So how about that Bismark?

[Cdr Straker]

still sunk. I think............

[TrashMan]

Minor issue: A victorian warship (or indeed a nepoleanic ship, if it could get its guns high enough) could easily 'soft kill' a WWII battleship by taking out the bridge and fire control stations, which would blind and thus silence the main guns. I would speculate that HMS Dreadnought (a very late era victorian ship) could do more comprehensive damage.

Nah dude. First of all, those things were armored enough that a victorian cannon is unlikely to do anything. Second, redudancy. a BB doesn't have jsut on bridge or one fire control station. Third, even if you do take out hte radar/fire control, guns can still be aimed and fired manually. Not as efficient, but if a victorian ship is close enough to precisely hit a specific part of a WW2 ship, then the ww2 ships doesn't have to worry much about targeting, since it's spitting distance away.


***

On another note, anyone thought of anoheter possiblity here?
It seems like hte Loroi empire is about to fall. Kliktit-27 offers Strike Group 51 a change to withdraw and go live unmolested somewhere else. But where?
Hint - Alex knows how to get to Earth.
Could it be that the storyline will see the Loroi running to Earth?????

[anticarrot]

Nah dude. First of all, those things were armored enough that a victorian cannon is unlikely to do anything.

Firstly, the claim was that even at point blank range, a victorian ship couldn't damage a WWII battleship which is not true. Secondly those areas were not armored! Fire control in those days amounted to telescopes & radar, and you cannot armor the business end of either of those. And while yes the big guns had backup optical systems, I think the only time those were actually used in combat was by the Bismark - and that didn't work out so well.

The point is not that old ships can kill new ships, but that new ships are never completely invaulnerable to old ships. All technology comes with limitations (which increase with greater specialisation and/or power) and a clever enemy can exploit them. Bad luck, skill, reliability, training, or tactics can give the oldies a chance every single time.

[TrashMan]

No.
A dozen of the best victorian ships could never sink a WW2 battelship. Heck, I don't think they could sink a WW2 destroyer!
Simple put, the cannonballs are no match for modern comabt rounds or modern armor. The range of the weapons, the accuray- no match.

A single shot from a human cruiser in Outsider, if it connects, can severly damge or even destroy a Loroi ship.
A single shot from a victorian ship can at best amuse or annoy a captain on a WW2 battleship.


The difference betwen old and new seems to wane the more forward technologicly things are.
In other wiords, technical difference between a 2100 and 2200 human warship is far smaller than a difference between a 1950 and 1850 warship.

There are some noticalbe stages, some tresholds, after which you become almost invulnerable. Tank vs. musket/spear? No contest.

It kinda makes sense, since as your technology increases, so does the defense. And to match it, so does offense. And at some point you start reaching deminnishing returns, as you reach physical limits of what can be done.
Once you reach nukes, there's no armor that can protect your ship anymore....