Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[SVlad]

Do loroi feel "Uncanny valley" effect when they see humans?

Don't know about Loroi, but once one of russian readers said, that blue skinned Loroi looks for him like some kind of undead zombi. But it's rare case.

[Arioch]

their genome is so "clean" from evolutionary garbage and edited so much that it would be impossible to find any discernible bits of human in them

The Loroi have zero human bits in their genetics. The Soia used their own genetic "language" for their projects.
It's like if a programmer sees a program and then makes his own, vastly improved version of it using another, completely different coding language.

That's right.

Are the various Soia-Liron species related to each other the same way earth species are or is each one its own project that started from zero? And if the former, is it therefore possible to use genetics to find out the order in which these species were created?

All Soia-Liron species share most of the same low-level genetic code that handles basic life processes, similar to Earth species or what you'd expect from any planet's biome. However, the knowledge that these genomes have been artificially altered makes it difficult to identify common ancestry or do genetic drift dating with much confidence.

One of the characteristics of Soia-Liron genomes which is believed to be evidence of gene tailoring is that there is much less "dead code" than you would expect in a genetic base that has been around for billions of years. This implies that even if Soia-Liron species were naturally evolved, mutations and dead code were artificially removed at some point. If you track shared mutations in modern populations and try to use them to date genetic drift over time, you find that they only go back less than a million years. It's hard to tell whether this means that the genomes are new, or whether they were "maintained" artificially up to some point before the fall of Soia civilization. It also means that if you find a shared genetic sequence between two species, it's hard to know whether this means they shared a common ancestor, or whether this sequence was artificially transplanted from one to the other; and if the latter, it's hard to know which of the species was the "source." Or even if either was the original source, as the code could have been transplanted from a third, unknown species. And the relative scarcity of Soia-Liron genomes (there are probably less than 30 known "stem" species, living and extinct, that date to the time of the fall) doesn't help here.

Do loroi feel "Uncanny valley" effect when they see humans?

Don't know about Loroi, but once one of russian readers said, that blue skinned Loroi looks for him like some kind of undead zombi. But it's rare case.

I think you can probably answer this question by asking yourself: do humans feel an uncanny valley effect when looking at Loroi? My sense is that the answer is probably that some do, and some don't.

[raistlin34]

Do loroi feel "Uncanny valley" effect when they see humans?

Don't know about Loroi, but once one of russian readers said, that blue skinned Loroi looks for him like some kind of undead zombi. But it's rare case.

The lack of facial expression or verbal communication of most Loroi certainly don't help.

[Werra]

Do loroi feel "Uncanny valley" effect when they see humans?

Don't know about Loroi, but once one of russian readers said, that blue skinned Loroi looks for him like some kind of undead zombi. But it's rare case.

The lack of facial expression or verbal communication of most Loroi certainly don't help.

That we don't exist to one of their senses doesn't help things from the Loroi perspective either. Imagine if we saw the Loroi and only them in black and white.

[cacambo43]

Do loroi feel "Uncanny valley" effect when they see humans?

Don't know about Loroi, but once one of russian readers said, that blue skinned Loroi looks for him like some kind of undead zombi. But it's rare case.

The lack of facial expression or verbal communication of most Loroi certainly don't help.

They certainly don't lack for facial expressions at all, from what we've seen. I think actual blue skin would be more "uncanny" to some humans than lack of speech. People are often non-verbal throughout their day.

CJSF

[icekatze]

hi hi

I actually think that humans not showing up via telepathy wouldn't effect uncanny valley. Uncanny valley is all about being close but not quite. With having no telepathy, it's not even close. Some of them may find it unnerving in other ways, but it probably wouldn't be uncanny valley.

If there was a person who couldn't talk and was very quiet in everything they did, to the point that nobody ever heard them, they'd be a bit odd, but it wouldn't be uncanny valley. Of if someone was so fastidiously clean that no one ever smelled them at all. It's not changing an existing perception, but leaving out one entirely.

[Zorg56]

Is it possible to create Hypervelocity canon?
Like, speed and timing of shell launched in hyperspace calculated, that it will be dragged out by planet gravity well in front of target?

[icekatze]

hi hi

I suspect that the hyperspace accuracy required for such a weapon is beyond the tech level of the Loroi and Umiak. Also, since jump entry zones are not obliged to line up with the planetary disk, I'd image that most systems wouldn't present a target.

[Arioch]

Short-range hyperspace jumps from one planet to another within a star system have never been made successfully; the star's gravity well interferes. If the jumping ship doesn't have the velocity to escape the star's well, then it is pulled into the star; if it does have escape velocity, then the planet's gravity is not enough to pull it back out of hyperspace. So the only practical jumps are from one star to another, and the only target you can hit with reliability is the star itself.

There is also the question of when and how the projectile is launched (a cannon can't fire a projectile into hyperspace unless it is itself in hyperspace, and anything in hyperspace is blind and time dilated), and the question of accuracy, but the concept is a non-starter.

[Zorg56]

Do loroi have redneck stereotype analog?

[boldilocks]

Do loroi have redneck stereotype analog?

Yeah, they're called humans.

[dragoongfa]

Something that has been bothering me for a while, mainly because I am a military history buff and I have noticed/assumed that this may be the case:

Do the Loroi see the position to the left of a military formation as a position of honor?

In many cultures but especially in ancient Greece, due to the workings of the ancient Greek Phalanx, the position to the right of one's military formation was seen as the hardest and as thus it was a position of honor; highly coveted by those who saught to make a name for themselves.

The Loroi being left handed should play a part in this, especially if they had settled themselves into a Phalanx style of warfare for an extended period of time.

[Arioch]

Do loroi have redneck stereotype analog?

I suppose every culture is going to have some sort of division between urban and rural populations, and I suppose most differences will be along familiar lines, with each group stereotyping the other (ignorant hayseeds vs. over-educated tenderfoots). The divisions are probably most apparent in the civilian side of the equation, with military conformity and discipline minimizing the divide on the warrior side.

Do the Loroi see the position to the left of a military formation as a position of honor?

Yes, but it's mainly just a reversal of the right-handed bias (a "good right hand", "righteousness", versus left-handed/underhanded, or "sinister"), and not really having to do with ancient formations.

The Loroi being left handed should play a part in this, especially if they had settled themselves into a Phalanx style of warfare for an extended period of time.

Weapons and tactics varied across time and location, but the typical Loroi heavy infantry of the long Deinar Classical period tended to be organized into smaller, more mobile formations that were more similar to Roman maniples rather than Greek phalanxes. Loroi tended to disfavor large shields, partly because there were few missile weapons to protect against, partly because they were considered too heavy (the typical Loroi warrior being more slight than a human male analogue), and partly because large rigid "shield wall" formations could be too easily broken up by teams of Teidar. Most Loroi heavy infantry of the period tended to use either small round shields and scimitars, or else light two-handed weapons similar to naginata and katana.

[Jericho]

Weapons and tactics varied across time and location, but the typical Loroi heavy infantry of the long Deinar Classical period tended to be organized into smaller, more mobile formations that were more similar to Roman maniples rather than Greek phalanxes. Loroi tended to disfavor large shields, partly because there were few missile weapons to protect against, partly because they were considered too heavy (the typical Loroi warrior being more slight than a human male analogue), and partly because large rigid "shield wall" formations could be too easily broken up by teams of Teidar. Most Loroi heavy infantry of the period tended to use either small round shields and scimitars, or else light two-handed weapons similar to naginata and katana.

By your description i would think the crossbow would have been a favorite amongst the Loroi (specifically the Han style crossbow). The ancient chinese were able to create a battle formation similar to the european line formation where rows of crossbowmen would fire continously until the enemy withered away. Without cavalry to threathen them such a formation would pretty much dominate the battlefield until mechanised warfare became a thing or did the Loroi use the unsheathed in a similar fasion as human cavalry? If thats the case how fast could a force of unsheathed move across the battlefield? Compared to cavalry that is.

Is ancient loroi warfare based on a particular human equivalent? I get this very east asian vibe from your description. I thought they would resemble ancient greeks at first simply because they are inspired by amazons or so i assumed.






Also because entire armies of amazons wearing short metal skirts sounds very fascinating. I mean from a historical camparison perspective.

[Arioch]

By your description i would think the crossbow would have been a favorite amongst the Loroi (specifically the Han style crossbow). The ancient chinese were able to create a battle formation similar to the european line formation where rows of crossbowmen would fire continously until the enemy withered away. Without cavalry to threathen them such a formation would pretty much dominate the battlefield until mechanised warfare became a thing or did the Loroi use the unsheathed in a similar fasion as human cavalry? If thats the case how fast could a force of unsheathed move across the battlefield? Compared to cavalry that is.

There were few missile weapons before gunpowder, because most infantry units had Unsheathed officers who could deflect missiles. Missile weapons were considered peasant weapons, and looked down upon.

Teams of Unsheathed could be used like a wedge to break up the enemy line (telekinetically throwing people aside), but they were not any faster than formal infantry.

Is ancient loroi warfare based on a particular human equivalent? I get this very east asian vibe from your description. I thought they would resemble ancient greeks at first simply because they are inspired by amazons or so i assumed.

Not really. My image of ancient Loroi warfare is based upon the established characteristics for the Loroi (telepathic, psychokinetic, comparatively slight of build), rather than a particular Earth model.

A lot of the fighting on classical Deinar was in and around the cold deserts of Arran, and so these armies had a bit of an Arabesque or North African feel, with protective clothing and scimitar-like blades.

[Werra]

Would a line even form under these circumstances? There is no cavalry forcing infantry together and there are little missile weapons to be aware of. On top of that, Teidar should have an easier time hitting a large block of infantry at range compared to a group in loose formation. With telepathy added into the mix, it seems more sensible to organize into small groups of Loroi covering each other and coordinating with other such groups to fight a larger scale battle. Somewhat analogous to medieval knights who were accompanied by their Men at Arms into battle individually and made up larger units as a whole.
Let's say 8 groups of 8 each are facing a unit of 64. Could the small groups coordinate well enough to break up the large formation and go at them cohesively without any group getting overwhelmed or am I overvaluing Loroi telepathy here?

Next question:
A Teidar maintains a shield. A grenade explodes on the other side of her barrier. Let's say the shield is strong enough to stop the shrapnel and whatnot. Would the Teidar also be safe from the concussion, noise, heat and light?

Last question:
How do Loroi, especially those in charge of population control, feel about aliens living on their worlds? I don't imagine the aquatic Pipolsid cause many problems. But what about those that share their biological niche?

[Arioch]

Would a line even form under these circumstances? There is no cavalry forcing infantry together and there are little missile weapons to be aware of.

The Loroi would have used a variety of formations, but a line of some sort is the natural formation for melee infantry when fighting other melee infantry. You want to keep the enemy in front of you, and you want to fight with your comrades shoulder to shoulder to get the highest possible density of weapons on a target; if you're too spread out, individual soldiers can be isolated and double- or triple-teamed and the group can be more easily penetrated, and even a loose formation is still at a disadvantage if attacked from the flanks or the rear. You'll probably want at least two or three ranks behind you; even if it doesn't become a shoving match, you want to have replacements right at hand if a solder in the front rank goes down. Lines are bad formations against both cavalry and missiles; against cavalry you want to form a square, and against missiles (if you don't have shields) you want to disperse and take cover.

With telepathy added into the mix, it seems more sensible to organize into small groups of Loroi covering each other and coordinating with other such groups to fight a larger scale battle. Somewhat analogous to medieval knights who were accompanied by their Men at Arms into battle individually and made up larger units as a whole.
Let's say 8 groups of 8 each are facing a unit of 64. Could the small groups coordinate well enough to break up the large formation and go at them cohesively without any group getting overwhelmed or am I overvaluing Loroi telepathy here?

Telepathy allows for very fine command and control from top to bottom in a unit, but in classical Loroi outfit, both sides are telepathic, so it is not a decisive advantage. Loroi warriors (again, on both sides) were professional and well-trained, so a battle would include a lot of intricate maneuvers, and complex responses to various moves (like a breach from a Teidar linebreaker team). A large block of infantry might turn out to subdivided into many smaller units, which could often maneuver or reform with precision. Infantry tactics and counter-tactics could get very complex.

A Teidar maintains a shield. A grenade explodes on the other side of her barrier. Let's say the shield is strong enough to stop the shrapnel and whatnot. Would the Teidar also be safe from the concussion, noise, heat and light?

The telekinetic barrier mitigates kinetic energy. It would dampen waves through the air to a degree (though the sound would wrap around the shield if it does not enclose the user), but it would not have an effect on light or heat.

How do Loroi, especially those in charge of population control, feel about aliens living on their worlds? I don't imagine the aquatic Pipolsid cause many problems. But what about those that share their biological niche?

Most worlds Loroi worlds do not have large alien populations, and those that do (such as shared frontier colony worlds or worlds with Pipolsid colonies) tend to keep to separate enclaves that do not interact much. While "xenophobic" is probably too strong a term, most Loroi don't like being around aliens.

[Jericho]

Arioch wrote:

Jericho wrote:
By your description i would think the crossbow would have been a favorite amongst the Loroi (specifically the Han style crossbow). The ancient chinese were able to create a battle formation similar to the european line formation where rows of crossbowmen would fire continously until the enemy withered away. Without cavalry to threathen them such a formation would pretty much dominate the battlefield until mechanised warfare became a thing or did the Loroi use the unsheathed in a similar fasion as human cavalry? If thats the case how fast could a force of unsheathed move across the battlefield? Compared to cavalry that is.

There were few missile weapons before gunpowder, because most infantry units had Unsheathed officers who could deflect missiles. Missile weapons were considered peasant weapons, and looked down upon.

Teams of Unsheathed could be used like a wedge to break up the enemy line (telekinetically throwing people aside), but they were not any faster than formal infantry.

How long can an unamplified unsheathed be expected to maintain a PSI shield? Powerful range weapons of the middle ages could loose over a distance of around 300 meters. That will take a lot of time to cross even for a soldier who doesn't have to focus on minding her step less she falls and constantly trying to see where the next stone is flying from. Forget crossbows, a simple lead sling would be devastating against Loroi armies. Fast moving lead pebbles are almost impossible to see in the air and they are dirt cheap. Hundreds of slingers could potentially pin down thousands of lightly armoured Loroi warriors and i don't see how the unsheathed of the past would be able to counter that unless they are able to maintain a strong enough and large enough shield in the wage direction of the enemy and maintain that for potentially an hour non stop. And that is ignoring the possibility that the slingers would simply devide their forces and attack from multiple directions. Or maybe i'm just overestimating the difficulty of using psi in battle.

Arioch wrote:
Not really. My image of ancient Loroi warfare is based upon the established characteristics for the Loroi (telepathic, psychokinetic, comparatively slight of build), rather than a particular Earth model.

A lot of the fighting on classical Deinar was in and around the cold deserts of Arran, and so these armies had a bit of an Arabesque or North African feel, with protective clothing and scimitar-like blades.

You and i have very different ideas about how to best use the Loroi in ancient warfare . While i agree that the Loroi would probably have an african feel to them i think they would have been more effective fighting like Zulu's or Sudanese warriors.

My reasoning is that the biggest threat to range units is not the defense of the enemies but the speed of which they are able to close the distance. If the unsheathed can't run down lighter skirmish units then they can't be a threat to them.

Also the Zulu had very large shields that were very lightweight and are claimed to have stopped bullets at long distance. This seems to me to be a far more reliable solution than PSI shields.

I also like to point out that curved swords at least on earth are more closely connected to cavalry warfare than infantry warfare as the slice is amplified by the horses stride. So i would imagine the Loroi to use straight swords like the Kaskara. Straigt swords are per pound more nimble than curved swords and have better reach which is very useful against cloth armour. Plus that double edged point is pure death against cloth armour.

If i understood you correctly when you wrote that a loroi female would have comparable strength to a human male of the same height despite the human outweighing her. Then that would mean that she would also run faster then a human could per pound. This too makes me think that Loroi warriors would have fought like Zulu's in the absence of cavalry.

Werra wrote:
Would a line even form under these circumstances? There is no cavalry forcing infantry together and there are little missile weapons to be aware of. On top of that, Teidar should have an easier time hitting a large block of infantry at range compared to a group in loose formation. With telepathy added into the mix, it seems more sensible to organize into small groups of Loroi covering each other and coordinating with other such groups to fight a larger scale battle. Somewhat analogous to medieval knights who were accompanied by their Men at Arms into battle individually and made up larger units as a whole.
Let's say 8 groups of 8 each are facing a unit of 64. Could the small groups coordinate well enough to break up the large formation and go at them cohesively without any group getting overwhelmed or am I overvaluing Loroi telepathy here?

Line formations have in my opinion more to do with instincts than actual tactics. It just happens to also to be a very effective tactic. Even primitive stone age societies have been observed to form battle lines when confronting each other. This i think is because the natural instinct of social animals is to huddle up when facing dangers. Also line formations provides easy ways to control the size of the engagement.

Arioch wrote:
Loroi warriors (again, on both sides) were professional and well-trained

While were on the topic. How large of a percentage of ancient Loroi were warriors? Human societis always tended to have a very small percentage of full time warriors due to economic reasons. What was the situation like for the Loroi? Modern Loroi have a warrior ratio of 50% but it just seems unfeasable for a primitive society to have that high number of warriors and not be a nomadic/hunter gatherer society.

[Arioch]

There were few missile weapons before gunpowder, because most infantry units had Unsheathed officers who could deflect missiles. Missile weapons were considered peasant weapons, and looked down upon.

How long can an unamplified unsheathed be expected to maintain a PSI shield? Powerful range weapons of the middle ages could loose over a distance of around 300 meters. That will take a lot of time to cross even for a soldier who doesn't have to focus on minding her step less she falls and constantly trying to see where the next stone is flying from. Forget crossbows, a simple lead sling would be devastating against Loroi armies. Fast moving lead pebbles are almost impossible to see in the air and they are dirt cheap. Hundreds of slingers could potentially pin down thousands of lightly armoured Loroi warriors and i don't see how the unsheathed of the past would be able to counter that unless they are able to maintain a strong enough and large enough shield in the wage direction of the enemy and maintain that for potentially an hour non stop. And that is ignoring the possibility that the slingers would simply devide their forces and attack from multiple directions. Or maybe i'm just overestimating the difficulty of using psi in battle.

In addition to deflecting the missiles themselves, the PK can see the bowman drawing or the slinger winding up, and swat at the weapon before the missile is even launched. It's like trying to use a bow or a sling against an opponent who is within arm's reach of you. It hardly requires any force at all to prevent accurate fire, as opposed to knocking a sword or spear out of someone's hand if it's firmly held. A crossbow can shoot 300 yards, but they didn't have crossbows.

There are limits to a Teidar's attention, and so sophisticated or massed missile weapons could overwhelm PK defenses, but extensive research or investment in missile weapons is not likely when a) the early versions are not very effective and b) these are essentially peasant-empowering weapons in a warrior-run society. It's a negative feedback loop.

There were no doubt exceptions to this rule in various times and places. I think especially in Daiam in the ancient period, where they built large fortifications (in violation of standard Loroi Warrior rules), investment in missile weapons would have made sense. But in the formalized combat of the classical period in Arran and Zaral, they simply weren't used (until gunpowder made them too good to ignore).

While i agree that the Loroi would probably have an african feel to them i think they would have been more effective fighting like Zulu's or Sudanese warriors. My reasoning is that the biggest threat to range units is not the defense of the enemies but the speed of which they are able to close the distance. If the unsheathed can't run down lighter skirmish units then they can't be a threat to them. Also the Zulu had very large shields that were very lightweight and are claimed to have stopped bullets at long distance. This seems to me to be a far more reliable solution than PSI shields.

If nguni shields could reliably stop bullets, I think the battles of Rorke's Drift and Ulundi would have turned out every differently. However, since the Loroi infantry weren't facing bullets, I'm not sure that's relevant. You don't need to chase down skirmishers when they can't hurt you because they don't have any effective missile weapons.

I think Zulu tactics of mobility would be a good model for some of the maneuvers you might see in a Loroi infantry battle, but I don't think they would have geared the same. The hot savannas of Africa and the cold deserts of Arran are very different environments to fight in.

I also like to point out that curved swords at least on earth are more closely connected to cavalry warfare than infantry warfare as the slice is amplified by the horses stride.

Early curved swords like the khopesh predate the use of cavalry. I think the theory is that they were developed from axes. Weapons specialized for cutting tend to be curved, and those specialized for thrusting tend to be straight. There are infantry use cases for both depending on the context of the fighting.

While were on the topic. How large of a percentage of ancient Loroi were warriors? Human societis always tended to have a very small percentage of full time warriors due to economic reasons. What was the situation like for the Loroi? Modern Loroi have a warrior ratio of 50% but it just seems unfeasable for a primitive society to have that high number of warriors and not be a nomadic/hunter gatherer society.

The percentage of warriors could be as large as half, even in antiquity. Many pre-industrial jobs that we consider to be "civilian" were handled by the warrior class, including most municipal, engineering and many skilled craft jobs (especially those involving production of weapons and armor). Loroi need less food than humans, and their staple crop was an ultra-tech supergrain, so they didn't need as many farmers as humans in the comparable era did.

[Warringrose]

I think especially in Daiam in the ancient period, where they built large fortifications (in violation of standard Loroi Warrior rules),

Oho, can you explain further? As much detail as possible please, this sounds interesting.